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'[PIC] Debug and program the 40-pin 887 in circuit'
2008\06\17@195424 by Tomás Ó hÉilidhe

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I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.

On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V... but will
I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?

I'm reading through the datasheet right now, but could someone please
help me out? Basically I want to know which pins I should connect to a
header so that I can hook up my Pickit2 to the board to program and
debug it.

2008\06\17@200745 by Tomás Ó hÉilidhe

picon face


Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
> I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
> want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.

You can get the 887 as a 40-pin chip or as a 44-pin chip.

I'm looking over the datasheet here and it isn't blatantly obvious which
4 pins the 40-pin chip is missing.

Anyone know?

2008\06\17@201714 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
> I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
> want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.
>
> On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V...

Don't you mean Vdd?

> but will
> I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?

The PICkit2 will take care of that, on Vpp ('programming voltage').

> I'm reading through the datasheet right now, but could someone please
> help me out? Basically I want to know which pins I should connect to a
> header so that I can hook up my Pickit2 to the board to program and
> debug it.

Vpp, Vdd, Vss, ICSPDAT, and ICSPCLK.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2008\06\17@201851 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>
> Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>> I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
>> want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.
>
> You can get the 887 as a 40-pin chip or as a 44-pin chip.
>
> I'm looking over the datasheet here and it isn't blatantly obvious which
> 4 pins the 40-pin chip is missing.
>
> Anyone know?

The 44-pin has one more each of Vss and Vdd, plus two NC (no connect) pins.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2008\06\17@201929 by peter green

flavicon
face

> On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V... but will
> I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?
>  
Umm Vss is the negative supply isn't it.

> I'm reading through the datasheet right now, but could someone please
> help me out? Basically I want to know which pins I should connect to a
> header so that I can hook up my Pickit2 to the board to program and
> debug it.
>
>  
The programmer needs to connect to Vdd Vss, PGC , PGD and Vpp/MCLR. The
pinout should be documented in your programmers manual.

Vpp/Mclr should be pulled to 5V (with a reset switch to ground if
desired) with a 20k or so resistor so the programmer can take control of it.

It also improves reliability of the intial programming operation if you
pull PGM low.

2008\06\17@201938 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, if Vss is hardwired to +5V then it will be a real pain for that
chip... I guess you wanted to say Vdd is hardwired to +5V and Vss to gnd...

Look at the low voltage programming for low voltage programming otherwise
you need the Vpp/MCLR to be like at 12-13V  -- but this is generated by the
programmer.
Also sometimes 'PGD' is also known as ICSPDAT and 'PGC' as ICSPCLK.

You can also look at your chip's programmer's guide and pickit2 user manual
- so from the 6 pin of the pickit2 you can connect 5, Vpp, Vdd, Vss, pgc and
pgd.. The sixth one, pgm is for low voltage programming, you can wire that
one as well (to lvp pin, but not necessary). If your circuit does not
withraw too much power you can even let pickit2 to supply the voltage to the
circuit to either run or debug.

Tamas


On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54 AM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <spam_OUTtoeTakeThisOuTspamlavabit.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2008\06\17@202106 by olin piclist

face picon face
"Tomás Ó hÉilidhe" wrote:
> I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
> want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.
>
> On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V... but will
> I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?

You don't need it to be, but some programmers (like mine) want to own Vdd
during programming and will two verify passes, one at each Vdd limit, by
default.  This can be disabled on the command line.  Other programmers may
vary.

> I'm reading through the datasheet right now,

The pins needed for programming may be in the datasheet, but programming
details are in a separate document called the programming spec.

> but could someone please
> help me out? Basically I want to know which pins I should connect to a
> header so that I can hook up my Pickit2 to the board to program and
> debug it.

http://www.embedinc.com/picprg/icsp.htm.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\17@202248 by Marcel Birthelmer

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face
Tomas,
I suggest you check the pin-out in the beginning of the databook (it should
list all packages) and compare to see which ones are missing.
As for the original question, the Vcc voltage (Vss would be ground,
probably) can be tied to 5V - the higher  voltage for programming is called
Vpp and will be connected to the VPP pin (also /MCLR) during programming.
This and other issues are addressed, for example, on this website:
http://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/pic-programming.html

A more thorough and informative guide is found here, courtesy of Olin:
http://www.embedinc.com/picprg/icsp.htm


Regards,
- Marcel

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <.....toeKILLspamspam@spam@lavabit.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2008\06\17@202518 by Jinx

face picon face
> it isn't blatantly obvious which 4 pins the 40-pin chip is missing

Because the 44 has extra Vdd and Vss and a couple of NC

> On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V...
> but will I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?

Vss should be substantially lower than 5V. More like 0V in fact.
Vdd / Vcc is 5V

2008\06\17@202548 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Actually it depends on the package, as with the TQFP there is 4 NC --
everything is in the beginning in the datasheet in the pin diagrams.


On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Timothy J. Weber <twspamKILLspamtimothyweber.org>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2008\06\17@204945 by Richard Seriani, Sr.

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomás Ó hÉilidhe" <.....toeKILLspamspam.....lavabit.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: [PIC] Debug and program the 40-pin 887 in circuit


{Quote hidden}

I believe the combination of the 887 datasheet and the documentation that
came with your PICkit2 (assuming it is like the one I just purchased) have
that info.
Have you tried the Microchip web site? They have a lot of info, including
application notes, concerning ICSP.

Other posters have also suggested other sources for the information.


2008\06\18@015330 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
> I'll have a 40-pin Dual In-line Package PIC16F887 on my board, and I
> want to be able to both program and debug it while it's in its circuit.
>
> On my board, the Vss pin of the 887 will be hardwired to 5 V... but will
> I need this to be a higher voltage for programming it?
>
> I'm reading through the datasheet right now, but could someone please
> help me out? Basically I want to know which pins I should connect to a
> header so that I can hook up my Pickit2 to the board to program and
> debug it.

Programming details are in the "programming specification", not in the
datasaheet. Check whether the part (might) need a Vpp-before-Vdd
sequence. If so, the programmer must be able to switch the Vdd. If not,
Vdd hardwired to 5V is OK.

And take care that
- PGM is pulled low on startup
- the programmer must be able to pull RB6/RB7 low with its build-in
resistors (so no heavy loads towards Vdd on those pins)

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\18@042930 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I'm looking over the datasheet here and it isn't blatantly obvious
>which 4 pins the 40-pin chip is missing.

If you look at the pinout diagram of the 44 pin chip, you will probably find
that it is all the ones labelled NC - i.e. No Connect.

The pin numbers for the two functional pins on the two chips probably
varies, that is you cannot use the same symbol in a schematic and expect to
get the correct connections for both package styles.

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