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'[PIC] Connecting 16F877 on internet by PSTN'
2002\08\01@210458 by Eron

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Hello friends,

I´m working in a project that demands to connect a 16F877 to a web server computer dialy to send some data colected by PIC during the day.

I was thinking in use a Seiko S-7600 TCP-IP Stack + Modem Chip (Like CML Micro CMX868) to connect by PSTN.
So, I heard that Seiko will discontinue the S-7600 part and I felt discouraged.  
Is this information true??

How can I implement a TCP-IP Stack??  There are others chips for this purpose (like S-7600) having conectivity with PSTN modems??    
Any suggestions are welcome.



Hugs,

Eron.

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2002\08\01@234427 by Matt Pobursky

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Do you have to use a PIC? If not, you could use a Rabbit Semiconductor
RCM2300 module and external modem module. They have the PPP and TCP/IP
functions in their library. They also have sample applications to get
you up and running quickly. They are plug-in modules and not very
expansive. You could also use the PIC as a slave device to the Rabbit
via USART (the Rabbit has 4 of 'em) if the PIC portion of your project
is already complete. You could probably get your application up and
running in a few days.

http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/rcm2300/index.html

I actually have had one of their TCP/IP development kits running a web
server for quite some time now at:

http://64.32.150.109/index.html

The Rabbit module is quite capable and fexible, but might be overkill
for your application. you could also try Cermetek and other embedded
modem manufacturers. I've seen several that had TCP/Ip stacks built
into the modem. You just talk to the modem module with the PIC's USART
and send it high level commands. It takes care of all the TCP/IP and
ISP overhead.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:29:42 -0300, Eron wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\02@021811 by Derek Cowburn

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Check out http://www.cermetek.com/

-Derek

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2002\08\02@101721 by Josh Koffman

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If you can stand a bit of a shift in development, you should check out
Microchip's TCP/IP stack. The CD is available off their website. The
only problems for your application are that it requires an 18 series
chip. It's also entirely in C, which may or may not be a problem for
you. I agree, I am also disapointed that the Seiko chip is going away. I
would love to see a simple, cost effective solution to using Ethernet
and TCP/IP with PICs.

Hope this helps,

Josh
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Eron wrote:
> I4m working in a project that demands to connect a 16F877 to a web server computer dialy to send some data colected by PIC during the day.
>
> How can I implement a TCP-IP Stack??  There are others chips for this purpose (like S-7600) having conectivity with PSTN modems??

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2002\08\02@105136 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
There is a cat box on the market that after a cat
visits the box, it rakes the cat litter so the cat
will have a pleasant experience the next time.
From my understanding, this product will soon be
available in a "internet model", so that the cat
owner can see it's activity log while at work.
The ability to leave a voice message for the cat,
to be delivered after the cat's next visit, is
still under discussion.

I did something similar to what you want to do,
except it was before the internet and just used a
store bought external modem.  When I detected a
"Ring" I would answer the phone and say "This is a
restricted site and unauthorized access is
prohibited".  Then would wait for the proper
password to be entered.  Saying nothing until the
correct password was received.  If after two tries
at entering the password, both being incorrect, I
would still say nothing, but would ignore any more
data coming from the modem and start looking for
loss of carrier signal from modem.  When I
received that, would hang up the modem.  (Good
luck hacking that!)

Bill


{Original Message removed}

2002\08\02@111403 by Dale Botkin

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Check out Siteplayer.  Ethernet, TCP/IP, Web interface, UDP packets, and
you don't have to deal with any of the details from teh PIC.  I think the
module is $29 in singles, and they also offer an RJ45 connector with all
the magnetics built in for $5.  It's small, about 1" square or so, and the
dev kit is relatively cheap.  For interfacing a PIC project to Ethernet I
haven't seen anything easier yet.  Not perfect, but a pretty cool little
widget.

Dale
--
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

> If you can stand a bit of a shift in development, you should check out
> Microchip's TCP/IP stack. The CD is available off their website. The
> only problems for your application are that it requires an 18 series
> chip. It's also entirely in C, which may or may not be a problem for
> you. I agree, I am also disapointed that the Seiko chip is going away. I
> would love to see a simple, cost effective solution to using Ethernet
> and TCP/IP with PICs.

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2002\08\02@112639 by Josh Koffman

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Is that the one you had for sale awhile back?

Josh
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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> Check out Siteplayer.  Ethernet, TCP/IP, Web interface, UDP packets, and
> you don't have to deal with any of the details from teh PIC.  I think the
> module is $29 in singles, and they also offer an RJ45 connector with all
> the magnetics built in for $5.  It's small, about 1" square or so, and the
> dev kit is relatively cheap.  For interfacing a PIC project to Ethernet I
> haven't seen anything easier yet.  Not perfect, but a pretty cool little
> widget.

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2002\08\02@113818 by Dale Botkin

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Yep.  Now on its way to its new owner.  Like I said, it's not perfect for
every application -- in my particular case, I needed something that would
enable me to asynchronously send UDP packets over large IP networks.  The
show stopper was the IP stack -- it's designed as a web server that has a
lot of interfacing ability.  One thing they did that's pretty interesting
is to eliminate the need for a default gateway and ARP protocol -- the SP
simply sends all reply packets to the same IP and MAC address from which
the request was received.  Note that this means if you didn't receive a
request, you've got a problem.  Works fine for a web server, but in my
case I wanted to be able to send a UDP packet to a known IP address.
There is a way to do it but it requires that you know the IP *and MAC*
address of the target host.  As this was going to be a commercial product,
making the user enter the MAC address of the gateway or host was really
not acceptable.  I needed ARP at least, so it wouldn't work for my
particular application.  For many remote control/status applications,
though, it would be fine.

Dale
--
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

> Is that the one you had for sale awhile back?
...

> Dale Botkin wrote:
> >
> > Check out Siteplayer.

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2002\08\02@163002 by Mike Singer

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Funny thing, nobody suggested absolutely obvious variant:
PIC + cheapest computer based on micro-ATX motherboard, I810 for example, connected via WinModem to WebServer.
Eron did not say any word about case dimensions, power consumption.  By the way, micro-ATX case is relatively smal. Power management is rather advanced under M$ software.
Wake-up by PIC may be implemented.
The cost will be aprox:
Case                 $25
Motherboard    $40 (Intel810)
CPU                 $30 (VIA CoolRunner)
RAM  128M     $25
WinModem      $10
HDD-20HB       $65          Win95               $??
----------------------------
Total                 <$200USA

Going this way you are destined to fulfill your task.
A lot of guys on the list once in a while are get connected to WebServers over PSTN. Nothing too complex.

Going in other directions you may remain playing with TCP-IP for a long time, instead of developing
an application. (Look at threads about wages)

  Good Luck.    Mike.



Eron wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\02@163541 by Josh Koffman

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Interesting...unfortunately I think I fall into the same problem you
did. Ah well, something to think about for other projects I suppose.

Thanks,

Josh
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Dale Botkin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\02@164555 by Brendan Moran

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Hash: SHA1

> Check out Siteplayer.  Ethernet, TCP/IP, Web interface, UDP
> packets, and you don't have to deal with any of the details from
> teh PIC.  I think the module is $29 in singles, and they also offer
> an RJ45 connector with all the magnetics built in for $5.  It's
> small, about 1" square or so, and the dev kit is relatively cheap.
> For interfacing a PIC project to Ethernet I haven't seen anything
> easier yet.  Not perfect, but a pretty cool little widget.

If it hadn't been for this post, I would have suggested using a FPGA.

> Works fine for a web server, but in my
> case I wanted to be able to send a UDP packet to a known IP
> address. There is a way to do it but it requires that you know the
> IP *and MAC* address of the target host.  As this was going to be a
> commercial product, making the user enter the MAC address of the
> gateway or host was really not acceptable.  I needed ARP at least,
> so it wouldn't work for my particular application.  For many remote
> control/status applications, though, it would be fine.

For anyone who hasn't already sold their module, or intends to use
something similar to this in the future, there's an easy solution to
this problem:  send a PING to the server with a specific command in
the body of the packet (which is usually not used in a PING) that
tells the server to log that IP and MAC and use it to transmit
whatever.  The chances of someone sending that specific packet
erroneously are unlikely, especially if you use a strange data length
such as 9 bytes, whereas the normal is 32.

You'd need a special program or script to do this, but I don't think
it would really be too tough.  Just a thought.

- --Brendan

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2002\08\02@171448 by Dale Botkin

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Let me guess...  SNMP?

8-)

Dale
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

> Interesting...unfortunately I think I fall into the same problem you
> did. Ah well, something to think about for other projects I suppose.

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2002\08\02@172026 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Brendan Moran wrote:

> For anyone who hasn't already sold their module, or intends to use
> something similar to this in the future, there's an easy solution to
> this problem:  send a PING to the server with a specific command in
> the body of the packet (which is usually not used in a PING) that
> tells the server to log that IP and MAC and use it to transmit
> whatever.  The chances of someone sending that specific packet
> erroneously are unlikely, especially if you use a strange data length
> such as 9 bytes, whereas the normal is 32.

UDP, TCP, ICMP, whatever -- still the same problem.  If you're going to
generate a packet out of the blue to send to a remote host, you have to
have, or have a way to determine, the MAC address to use.

On a local or switched network, you send an ARP request, get an ARP reply,
get the MAC from that reply, and send the packet with your target IP
address to that MAC address.  On a non-local network you send an ARP
request for the gateway, get the gateway's MAC from the ARP response, adn
send the packet with your target IP to the gateway's MAC address.

Siteplayer lacks ARP capability, which means you have to know the MAC
address to send to.  You can get this either from your received packet, or
you can know the MAC ahead of time.  Neither worked for me, though like I
said getting the MAC address from the request packet works fine.

Dale

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2002\08\02@173135 by Brendan Moran

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> Siteplayer lacks ARP capability, which means you have to know the MAC
> address to send to.  You can get this either from your received packet, or
> you can know the MAC ahead of time.  Neither worked for me, though like I
> said getting the MAC address from the request packet works fine.

I was trying to say that if you want to generate a packet out of the blue
and send it somewhere, a good way of having the info there ahead of time
would be to run a config on the remote machine, which would send a ping to
the Siteplayer server.  The server would examine the contents of the ping,
and if it contained a command that the server recognized, it would cache
that IP and MAC, then it would use them next time that it wanted to send a
packet out of the blue.

I agree that this is not the best way to handle it, but I think it would
work.

Cheers,
--Brendan

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2002\08\02@173752 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Brendan Moran wrote:

> I was trying to say that if you want to generate a packet out of the blue
> and send it somewhere, a good way of having the info there ahead of time
> would be to run a config on the remote machine, which would send a ping to
> the Siteplayer server.  The server would examine the contents of the ping,
> and if it contained a command that the server recognized, it would cache
> that IP and MAC, then it would use them next time that it wanted to send a
> packet out of the blue.
>
> I agree that this is not the best way to handle it, but I think it would
> work.

Oh, you're comlpetely right, it would work fine.  I misunderstood what you
were saying.  If it were any other project I'd have gone with something
like that.  In this case, though, the target audience was corporate
customers with large networks.  I really needed more flexibility in the
network configuration, so decided to take a different approach.

Dale

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2002\08\03@191216 by Eron

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Thanks for your indication Matt!

Although they dont4t have a distributor near hear, I will read more and take
informtions about Rabbit solution.

For the modem module...  What4s the best choose?  Module modems (like
cermetek, CML Micro, Silicon-labs) or a comercial Modem??
I4m looking for a module modem for learn and implement on my project, but I
was thinking that is easier and more available to use a comercial model?
What do you think about?

hugs,

Eron.

Matt Pobursky wrote:
> Do you have to use a PIC? If not, you could use a Rabbit Semiconductor
> RCM2300 module and external modem module. They have the PPP and TCP/IP

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2002\08\03@191223 by Eron

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Hello Josh,

I saw at microchip web page about TCP/IP Stack for 18 series.
But I want to develop a simple card, with the minimum requirements, just for
connect and send a few of informations.
It was a pity that when I needed, S7600 was over....

Hugs,
Eron.

Josh Koffman wrote:
> If you can stand a bit of a shift in development, you should check out
> Microchip's TCP/IP stack. The CD is available off their website. The
> only problems for your application are that it requires an 18 series
> chip. It's also entirely in C, which may or may not be a problem for...

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2002\08\03@191242 by Eron

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Thanks Mike.  But the dimensions of micro-ATX solutions and costs are
prohibitives in the application...

Eron.



>Funny thing, nobody suggested absolutely obvious variant:
>PIC + cheapest computer based on micro-ATX motherboard,
>I810 for example, connected via WinModem to WebServer.
>Eron did not say any word about case dimensions, power
>consumption.
>The cost will be aprox:
----------------------------
>Total                 <$200USA

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2002\08\03@191250 by Eron

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Hello Dale,

Siteplayer seems a cost-efective solution.
I4ll download the docs to see them.
Can I connect this module directly with a modem??


Hugs,
Eron.

Dale Botkin wrote:
> Check out Siteplayer.  Ethernet, TCP/IP, Web interface, UDP packets,
> and you don't have to deal with any of the details from teh PIC.  I
> think the module is $29 in singles, and they also offer an RJ45
> connector with all the magnetics built in for $5.

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2002\08\04@021845 by Dale Botkin

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I don't think so, it's got an Ethernet interface built in but no provision
for a modem interface.  Of course several manufacturers make routers with
integrated modems that will dial and connect when a packet needs to be
sent -- Cisco for one -- but I suspect this will be too expensive an
alternative.

Dale
--
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Eron wrote:

> Hello Dale,
>
> Siteplayer seems a cost-efective solution.
> I4ll download the docs to see them.
> Can I connect this module directly with a modem??

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2002\08\04@093410 by Anand Dhuru

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If I understand the requirement of this thread right, Dr. Edward Cheungs
project on a 16F877 based web server would be just right; uses all non
proprietary components available off the shelf. Only issue might be the
availibility of old ISA ethernet cards,


Also check up www.rof.net/yp/alphaone/activities/electronics/3c509b/
, and a great tutorial at
http://www.boondog.com/tutorials/internetControl/internetControl.htm

Regards,

Anand Dhuru



{Original Message removed}

2002\08\04@201254 by Josh Koffman

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Nope, I'm working on a long term project where the original software guy
decided to use IPX. Works fine on PC to PC, but now that we're making
stand alone boxes...it's hard to find support. Plus any node could
initiate at any time, so I can't always rely on one side transmitting
first.

Was SNMP your stumbling block?

:)

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> Let me guess...  SNMP?
>
> 8-)
>
> Dale

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2002\08\05@073723 by Eron

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Thanks,

Although I need for a PSTN connection version, the project is very
interesting.

[]´s
Eron.
>
> If I understand the requirement of this thread right, Dr. Edward Che
ungs
> project on a 16F877 based web server would be just right; uses all n
on
> proprietary components available off the shelf. Only issue might be
the
> availibility of old ISA ethernet cards,
>
>
> Also check up www.rof.net/yp/alphaone/activities/electronics/
3c509b/
> , and a great tutorial at
> http://www.boondog.com/tutorials/internetControl/internetControl.htm
>
> Regards,

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2002\08\05@092550 by Dale Botkin

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No, SNMP is easy enough.  The project I was working on needed to send an
SNMP trap occasionally to a remote host.

Dale
--
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

> Was SNMP your stumbling block?
>
> :)
>
>
> Dale Botkin wrote:
> >
> > Let me guess...  SNMP?

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2002\08\06@151154 by Brendan Moran

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> If I understand the requirement of this thread right, Dr. Edward
> Cheungs project on a 16F877 based web server would be just right;
> uses all non proprietary components available off the shelf. Only
> issue might be the availibility of old ISA ethernet cards,

Is this the old "desolder a realtek ethernet driver" trick?

- --Brendan

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2002\08\06@162620 by Dale Botkin

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On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Brendan Moran wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > If I understand the requirement of this thread right, Dr. Edward
> > Cheungs project on a 16F877 based web server would be just right;
> > uses all non proprietary components available off the shelf. Only
> > issue might be the availibility of old ISA ethernet cards,
>
> Is this the old "desolder a realtek ethernet driver" trick?

No, it's the "solder your PIC based project to an ISA bus card" trick.
Neat trick, but try to find a reliable, viable source of stable, identical
new ISA bus Ethernet cards.  Heh.  Works great for a one-off, yes, but
definitely not good for production.

Dale

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2002\08\06@165954 by Brendan Moran

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> > > If I understand the requirement of this thread right, Dr.
> > > Edward Cheungs project on a 16F877 based web server would be
> > > just right; uses all non proprietary components available off
> > > the shelf. Only issue might be the availibility of old ISA
> > > ethernet cards,
> >
> > Is this the old "desolder a realtek ethernet driver" trick?
>
> No, it's the "solder your PIC based project to an ISA bus card"
> trick. Neat trick, but try to find a reliable, viable source of
> stable, identical new ISA bus Ethernet cards.  Heh.  Works great
> for a one-off, yes, but definitely not good for production.

I think I liked mine better.  Apparently realtek ethernet ICs are
really easy to use, and are the basis of lots of old ethernet cards.
Haven't done so myself, but apparently it works.

- --Brendan

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2002\08\07@123158 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Brendan Moran wrote:

>I think I liked mine better.  Apparently realtek ethernet ICs are
>really easy to use, and are the basis of lots of old ethernet cards.
>Haven't done so myself, but apparently it works.

How true ;-). Pick up a ISA ethernet card  claimed to be NE2000 compatible
and you're done. Almost. The versions on those chips changed too fast to
count.

Peter

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2002\08\07@124455 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>How true ;-). Pick up a ISA ethernet card  claimed to be NE2000 compatible
>and you're done. Almost. The versions on those chips changed too fast to
>count.

I think you will find that even many of the PCI cards use chips that are
NE2000 compatible, it is just that they have the PCI configuration circuitry
in front of them, not necessarily on the same chip. I seem to remember
looking at a chip from National Semiconductor recently which was compatible
with the older chips that were used on the true NE2000 cards.

Cannot remember the chip number off hand, but recall it was an extra digit
on the old chip that is on the ISA NE2000 cards.

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2002\08\07@183614 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:27:43 +0300 "Peter L. Peres" <RemoveMEplpTakeThisOuTspamACTCOM.CO.IL>
writes:
> How true ;-). Pick up a ISA ethernet card  claimed to be NE2000
> compatible
> and you're done. Almost. The versions on those chips changed too
> fast to
> count.
>
> Peter
>

    Drifiting off topic... Last weekend I decided to take an old ISA 486
and move it from Windoze 3.11 to RH 7.3 The machine has a no name NE2000
compatible card in it. It's based on the RTL8009. I can't find a Linux
driver for it. No one has responded yet on news:comp.os.linux.help . I
can't find anything in Google other than other people looking for the
same thing. Anyone know of a driver for such a card?

THANKS!

Harold



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2002\08\08@005444 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Really?  I've had RTL cards work before...  maybe it's configured for some
oddball address/IRQ that the ne2k driver doesn't check.  I've had that
happen several times; I've also had to hack the order in which the card
drivers are tried to get the right one to come up first, but that was with
PCI cards IIRC.  See if you can get it configured for 0x300, IRQ 3 or 5
and see if it works, I think the ne2k driver should work.

Dale
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
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On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:

>      Drifiting off topic... Last weekend I decided to take an old ISA 486
> and move it from Windoze 3.11 to RH 7.3 The machine has a no name NE2000
> compatible card in it. It's based on the RTL8009. I can't find a Linux
> driver for it. No one has responded yet on news:comp.os.linux.help . I
> can't find anything in Google other than other people looking for the
> same thing. Anyone know of a driver for such a card?

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2002\08\08@013058 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Tried 'modprobe -v ne', then 'ifconfig x.x.x.x eth0' ? Also look at
'dmesg|less'. All as root.

Peter

On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\08@043714 by dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hi,

fortunately, our FAE has begun to sell the mentioned chip (Realtek
RTL-8019) off the shelf. It costs $6 or so. Even hybrid transformer is
available.

Regards,
Imre

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On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\08@092652 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Worst case, buy another NE2000 clone for $9 or so.

Peter

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