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'[PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p'
2001\02\18@125614 by mervin

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Hi all
Yesterday I wrote that I was about to test my NOPPP programmer.  I did the
hardware voltage check and it was in specs.  Now I'm about to load the test
program that comes with NOPPP.  I went to get one of my  PICs and relized
that when I ordered them I ordered 16F84-10P not 16F84-04P but my LED test
project board has a 4 mhz ceramic resonator not 10 mhz.  I know from this
list you should not go over desgn specs, but will I run into any problems
programming a 10 mhz as a 4 mhz chip?  This will be my first chip to program
and only to verify that the NOPPP programmer I built actually works.

Thanks
Malcolm

PS
I would also be interested to here of others using this programmer for other
PIC chips than the x84 and  also "on board programming" ideas.

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2001\02\18@130432 by Thomas McGahee

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You can run a higher speed PIC at lower speeds with
no problem. Just make sure you have the correct
crystal type selected in the _CONFIG statement.

Good luck, and welcome to the world of PIC programming!

Fr. Tom McGahee

{Original Message removed}

2001\02\18@134300 by mervin

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Help!
Tried to burn (first chip) a test using the Demo program that comes w/noppp
(Demof84.hex).
I'm using   "RCG's NOPPP for Windows v1.32" since I'm also a DOS dummy.
I just wanted to see if the programmer works!

Selected OSC to XT for ceramic resonator, F84 chip and LPT1.  Clicked the
burn button and received following error message
"Failed at 0x0:  Expecting 0x3000, found 0x3FFF."

What did I do wrong?  Is maybe the demo written only for RC and can't be
changed?  I've only just started reading "Easy PIC'n", maybe I've jumped the
gun, but I thought it would be good to know that my programmer worked before
getting to the point of actually needing it.

Malcolm


{Original Message removed}

2001\02\18@173427 by Tim Hamel

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I too use the NOPPP programmer; I love it! The DOS version of the software is
very simple to use, doesn't require any DOS knowledge. I know it's a stupid
question, but did you have the power connected when you tried to burn the
PIC? OR..If the programmer test voltages turned out ok then I'd assume maybe
you have the PIC plugged in backwards...? Could be many things..


Regards,

Tim Hamel

In a message dated 2/18/01 10:45:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
spam_OUTmervinTakeThisOuTspamMIDSOUTH.RR.COM writes:

{Quote hidden}

the
>  gun, but I thought it would be good to know that my programmer worked
before
>  getting to the point of actually needing it.
>
>  Malcolm
>

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2001\02\19@063329 by Peter Betts

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> Selected OSC to XT for ceramic resonator, F84 chip and LPT1.

This is irrelevant when trying to program the chip. The crystal oscilator
doesn't start up until the chips programmmed anyway so this is a red
herring. You don't need any crystal to program it.



> Clicked the
> burn button and received following error message
> "Failed at 0x0:  Expecting 0x3000, found 0x3FFF."

This is indicating a fault with the hardware, probably just timing or
something silly like power suppliers. Check you have power to the chip and
that you have the correct power supply for the programmer.

Remember you need a 13V supply on MCLR for programming and thus your power
supply input must be at least 13V or more. Check the details of your
hardware.

> What did I do wrong?  Is maybe the demo written only for RC
> and can't be
> changed?

Nothing to do with that. You can program it wish absolute random data if you
wish, complete rubbish. It won't run (execute) but it should program and
verify 100% O.K.

> but I thought it would be good to know that my
> programmer worked before
> getting to the point of actually needing it.

It doesn't. Sorry but I use the P16PRO programmer and haven't experience
using anything else.

Regards

Pete

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2001\02\19@075337 by Peter Betts

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> but will I run into
> any problems
> programming a 10 mhz as a 4 mhz chip?

Run it a 1Hz if you like, it doesn't matter.

The speed specification of the chip only limits the MAXIMUM operating speed
not the minimum (there are limits, some processors aren't true DC, static
devices, most are)

You don't program the PIC to be 4MHz or 10MHz it just is by design of the
hardware circuit you have chosen.

A 4MHz PIC will work identically to a 10MHz PIC when they are both clocked
at 4MHz.

This would NOT be true if you tried to use a 4MHz device and clocked it at
10MHz because you have gone above the recommended MAXIMUM operating
frequency.

A higher speed specification device is always backward compatible in a
circuit running at a lower speed. Don't worry.

The only slight difference is in the crystal setting in the programmer.
XT,HS etc. At both 4MHz and 10MHz you'll be able to use XT for both. Only
when you go up to 20MHz say would you need the HS.

Pete

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2001\02\19@200012 by mervin

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Thanks Peter
Just starting and didn't wont to mess up a chip, better safe than sorry.
First attempt to program using just built NOPPP and Demof84.hex failed.
Error: expecting 0x000, found 3fff.
I had already taken a 6' db25 cable and cut it down to 30", guess it wasn't
enough.
Just about to make one as short as possible and try it again soon.

{Original Message removed}

2001\02\20@021704 by Peter Betts

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I find with my programmer I have to add a couple of hundred pF of
capacitance to get the programmer to work properly. But then I'm programming
SMD devices in-circuit.

If all else is constructed properly and the power supplies are correct then
it could just be down to capacitance on the transmission line (the cable)

Regards

Pete

> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\20@074956 by mervin

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Peter
Do you mean you had to increase the size of the c1 & c2 0.1 mfd cap or add
another?
Did you originally get the same error message?
"Error: expecting 0x000, found 0x3fff."

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Betts <.....ext-peter.bettsKILLspamspam.....NOKIA.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p


> I find with my programmer I have to add a couple of hundred pF of
> capacitance to get the programmer to work properly. But then I'm
programming
> SMD devices in-circuit.
>
> If all else is constructed properly and the power supplies are correct
then
> it could just be down to capacitance on the transmission line (the cable)
>
> Regards
>
> Pete
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2001\02\20@080035 by Peter Betts

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As I said I don't have a NOPP programmer but the P16PRO and to program my
PIC16F84's in circuit I need to attach my oscilloscope probes to the
programmming clock and data pins, this would be a few tens of picoFarads I
guess. If I don't do this the extra cable length from my programmer to the
SMD circuit is too much and I get the same error (except the PICALL.exe
application issues the error)

My extra cable length is only 10cm but it's enough to stop it working.

I have yet to fully investigate this and suspect this will be cured with the
addition of a 50->100pF capacitor somewhere? Something to simulate the scope
probe loading.

I don't know if that helps but it's a fine line between programming a PIC
and not in my case and I've found this simple technique does work for me. I
have no problems with DIL chips programmed within the ZIF socket; only when
I program my SMD's on a seperate PCB to my problems start.

Someone else may be able to explain exactly why but I think it's adjusting
the timing of the signals and maybe filtering some noise off to get it to
work.

Rgds

Pete

> {Original Message removed}

2001\02\20@081053 by mervin

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Once again, thanks for you help.
Last night I made a 21" cable.  I'll try again with the shorter cable
tonight.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Betts <ext-peter.bettsspamspam_OUTNOKIA.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p


> As I said I don't have a NOPP programmer but the P16PRO and to program my
> PIC16F84's in circuit I need to attach my oscilloscope probes to the
> programmming clock and data pins, this would be a few tens of picoFarads I
> guess. If I don't do this the extra cable length from my programmer to the
> SMD circuit is too much and I get the same error (except the PICALL.exe
> application issues the error)
>
> My extra cable length is only 10cm but it's enough to stop it working.
>
> I have yet to fully investigate this and suspect this will be cured with
the
> addition of a 50->100pF capacitor somewhere? Something to simulate the
scope
> probe loading.
>
> I don't know if that helps but it's a fine line between programming a PIC
> and not in my case and I've found this simple technique does work for me.
I
> have no problems with DIL chips programmed within the ZIF socket; only
when
> I program my SMD's on a seperate PCB to my problems start.
>
> Someone else may be able to explain exactly why but I think it's adjusting
> the timing of the signals and maybe filtering some noise off to get it to
> work.
>
> Rgds
>
> Pete
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2001\02\20@093508 by BENEDICIC SAMO

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Hi!

Try erasing the PIC first. Worked for me.
Regards, Samo

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of mervin
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:53 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p


Thanks Peter
Just starting and didn't wont to mess up a chip, better safe than sorry.
First attempt to program using just built NOPPP and Demof84.hex failed.
Error: expecting 0x000, found 3fff.
I had already taken a 6' db25 cable and cut it down to 30", guess it wasn't
enough.
Just about to make one as short as possible and try it again soon.

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Betts <spamBeGoneext-peter.bettsspamBeGonespamNOKIA.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p


> > but will I run into
> > any problems
> > programming a 10 mhz as a 4 mhz chip?
>
> Run it a 1Hz if you like, it doesn't matter.
>
> The speed specification of the chip only limits the MAXIMUM operating
speed
{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\20@215838 by mervin

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Thanks Samo, but didn't have to try that .
Replaced the 32" cable with the 21" cable and noticed the power wire to the
programmer had been spiral wrapped around both printer cables (I built my
NOPPP inside an A/B box).  Didn't think that (spiral) would have mattered
and don't know if it did or if it was too long of a cable or both.  All I
know is I got it to accept the Demof84.hex program and verified.


Is anyone familiar with Noppp9x by Rafael Cabezas?
That is what I used but there was a couple of odd things about it and I was
looking for someone that uses it to ask a few questions.
If so, you can email me direct or list it.

Know I can start my journey to PIC World!

Thanks again
Malcolm
RemoveMEmervinEraseMEspamEraseMEmidsouth.rr.com


----- Original Message -----
From: BENEDICIC SAMO <RemoveMEsamo.benedicicspam_OUTspamKILLspamHIT.SI>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC] 16f84-10p or 04p


> Hi!
>
> Try erasing the PIC first. Worked for me.
> Regards, Samo
>
> {Original Message removed}

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