Post by thread:[PIC] 16F877 fails programming when cold

Just one chip....or do several PIC's fail in the same circuit? If just one...toss it. If they all do...then look closer...bad solder joints are often a culprit Rob Blanchard <spam_OUTRBlanchardTakeThisOuThollandc.pe.ca> wrote: Is this an indication of a bad part? It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify ok. It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times will miss midi messages. Thanks, Rob

Only 1 16F877 in the circuit which is on a breadboard. It's the only one I've got right now - just wondering before I order another. Rob >>> .....micro_eng2KILLspam@spam@yahoo.com 10/5/2007 4:13:37 PM >>> Just one chip....or do several PIC's fail in the same circuit? If just one...toss it. If they all do...then look closer...bad solder joints are often a culprit Rob Blanchard <RBlanchardKILLspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: Is this an indication of a bad part? It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify ok. It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times will miss midi messages. Thanks, Rob

> -----Original Message----- > From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmit.edu On Behalf Of Rob Blanchard > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:46 PM > > Is this an indication of a bad part? > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > ok. > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > will miss midi messages. I've used quite a few 16F87X PICs in cold temperatures but I don't think I ever tried programming one in the cold. What temperature is cold? Does everything work OK at room temperature (20-25degC)? Which temperature range 16F877 are you using? Paul > > Thanks, > > Rob

Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program 6-7 times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or so. Rob Blanchard Learning Manager Computer Engineering Technology Holland College 140 Weymouth St. Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A 4Z1 Phone: (902) 629-4207 Fax: (902) 566-9355 E-Mail: @spam@rblanchardKILLspamhollandc.pe.ca Confidentiality Caution This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this message (including any attachments) and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Holland College reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks (Board Regulation 30-07-1). >>> KILLspammicro_eng2KILLspamyahoo.com 10/05/07 6:13 PM >>> I guess thats something we failed to ask...exactly...what is "cold". Just one that hasn't been running for a while? Or really....cold...like in the freezer cold. Paul Hutchinson <RemoveMEpaullhutchinsonTakeThisOuTyahoo.com> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonemit.edu On Behalf Of Rob Blanchard > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:46 PM > > Is this an indication of a bad part? > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > ok. > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > will miss midi messages. I've used quite a few 16F87X PICs in cold temperatures but I don't think I ever tried programming one in the cold. What temperature is cold? Does everything work OK at room temperature (20-25degC)? Which temperature range 16F877 are you using? Paul > > Thanks, > > Rob

On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <TakeThisOuTRBlanchardEraseMEspam_OUThollandc.pe.ca> wrote: > Is this an indication of a bad part? > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > ok. > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > will miss midi messages. > What is your programmer? Some of the old programmers may fail since they only support the device marginally. Xiaofan

Rob, On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:37:39 -0300, Rob Blanchard wrote: > Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program 6-7 > times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or so. Then there's something wrong - room temperature is nicely inside the operating temperature range so it should certainly work. You say it's in a breadboard? You mean a solderless, plug-in one? Try removing and reseating the chip a few times - there may be oxidation on the sockets/pins that's creating bad contacts. As you only have one chip I was going to suggest that you order samples from Microchip, but I've just checked and that chip (which is pretty old) isn't available for sampling, but the 877A is (make sure you order the PDIP version! :-) If there's no solid reason to use the non-A version, I'd say go with the 877A. It's not exactly new itself, but for the price it's a bargain :-) You can order three samples each of 4 different items. Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

It's a Chipmaster 6000 - the device is in the list. Rob Blanchard Learning Manager Computer Engineering Technology Holland College 140 Weymouth St. Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A 4Z1 Phone: (902) 629-4207 Fax: (902) 566-9355 E-Mail: RemoveMErblanchardTakeThisOuThollandc.pe.ca Confidentiality Caution This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this message (including any attachments) and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Holland College reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks (Board Regulation 30-07-1). >>> xiaofancEraseME.....gmail.com 10/05/07 10:30 PM >>> On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <EraseMERBlanchardhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: > Is this an indication of a bad part? > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > ok. > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > will miss midi messages. > What is your programmer? Some of the old programmers may fail since they only support the device marginally. Xiaofan

It is on a solderless breadboard and it has been reseated many times. My programmer (Chipmaster 6000) doesn't support the 877A so that's not an option. Rob Blanchard Learning Manager Computer Engineering Technology Holland College 140 Weymouth St. Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A 4Z1 Phone: (902) 629-4207 Fax: (902) 566-9355 E-Mail: RemoveMErblanchardEraseMEEraseMEhollandc.pe.ca Confidentiality Caution This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this message (including any attachments) and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Holland College reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks (Board Regulation 30-07-1). >>> RemoveMEHDRWspam_OUTKILLspamH2Org.demon.co.uk 10/06/07 8:55 AM >>> Rob, On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:37:39 -0300, Rob Blanchard wrote: > Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program 6-7 > times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or so. Then there's something wrong - room temperature is nicely inside the operating temperature range so it should certainly work. You say it's in a breadboard? You mean a solderless, plug-in one? Try removing and reseating the chip a few times - there may be oxidation on the sockets/pins that's creating bad contacts. As you only have one chip I was going to suggest that you order samples from Microchip, but I've just checked and that chip (which is pretty old) isn't available for sampling, but the 877A is (make sure you order the PDIP version! :-) If there's no solid reason to use the non-A version, I'd say go with the 877A. It's not exactly new itself, but for the price it's a bargain :-) You can order three samples each of 4 different items. Cheers, Howard Winter St.Albans, England

Bob Blick wrote: > --- Rob Blanchard <RemoveMERBlanchardTakeThisOuTspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: > > >> Only 1 16F877 in the circuit which is on a >> breadboard. It's the only one >> I've got right now - just wondering before I order >> another. >> > > While you're at it you might think about porting it to > a 16F877A. > > Cheerful regards, > > Bob > > Yes, it allows you to use a development tool. Also, remember that statistically, ONE of anything does not a trend make. In other words, it is possible you have a defective component. Never develop anything with only one item on hand. --Bob

Hmmm... that's interesting. I am working with 16F877's and 16F877A's right now and I'm very curious. If you tell me what temp you're considering cold, I'd be interested to experiment with my setup here. Cheers, -Neil. On Friday 05 October 2007 13:45, Rob Blanchard wrote: > Is this an indication of a bad part? > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > ok. > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > will miss midi messages. > > Thanks, > > Rob

Hi Neil, He mentioned already, it's room temp - he tries to program it couple of times, then suddenly it succeeds and then it works fine from that point until he leaves it for more than two hours. What I was wondering if that is really the PIC or the programmer if that supplies the correct Vpp and Vdd or if that is from an external power source if that source is the faulty. Also if that PIC can be programmed by a different programmer when it's 'cold'? BTW a freezer spray would be worth to try I think so that the PIC could be cooled down separately of other parts to see if the PIC itself is the weak point here. Tamas On 10/6/07, PicDude <EraseMEpicdude2spamspamBeGoneavn-tech.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Hmmm... that's interesting. I am working with 16F877's and 16F877A's right > now > and I'm very curious. If you tell me what temp you're considering cold, > I'd > be interested to experiment with my setup here. > > Cheers, > -Neil. > > > > On Friday 05 October 2007 13:45, Rob Blanchard wrote: > > Is this an indication of a bad part? > > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > > ok. > > > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > > will miss midi messages. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob > -

It would be interesting to know if it is the actual temperature that is to blame. What happens if the chip is preheated by some 10 or 20 degrees above room temperature? Quite academic, but still interesting. Wed 2007/10/7, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiKILLspamgmail.com>: {Quote hidden}> > Hi Neil, > > He mentioned already, it's room temp - he tries to program it couple of > times, then suddenly it succeeds and then it works fine from that point > until he leaves it for more than two hours. > > What I was wondering if that is really the PIC or the programmer if that > supplies the correct Vpp and Vdd or if that is from an external power > source > if that source is the faulty. Also if that PIC can be programmed by a > different programmer when it's 'cold'? BTW a freezer spray would be worth > to > try I think so that the PIC could be cooled down separately of other parts > to see if the PIC itself is the weak point here. > > Tamas > > > > > On 10/6/07, PicDude <picdude2STOPspamspam_OUTavn-tech.com> wrote: > > > > Hmmm... that's interesting. I am working with 16F877's and 16F877A's > right > > now > > and I'm very curious. If you tell me what temp you're considering cold, > > I'd > > be interested to experiment with my setup here. > > > > Cheers, > > -Neil. > > > > > > > > On Friday 05 October 2007 13:45, Rob Blanchard wrote: > > > Is this an indication of a bad part? > > > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > > > ok. > > > > > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > > > will miss midi messages. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rob > > --

On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <spamBeGonerblanchardSTOPspamEraseMEhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: > It is on a solderless breadboard and it has been reseated many times. > My programmer (Chipmaster 6000) doesn't support the 877A so that's not > an option. > One option is to forget about this ChipMaster and buy the cheap PICkit 2 (US$35+shipment) and a ZIF socket. It seems to be an old product and the upgrade is quite expensive. http://www.logicaldevices.com/Products/cm6000.htm Last time when I was deciding to buy a programmer for PIC development back in early year 2000, there were two options, one was to upgrade the universal programmer from Sprint (now Data I/O). It was so expensive to update the software that I chose the 2nd option -- to buy a Promate II and some sockets. Xiaofan

I tried a test last night with my 16F877 (TQFP)-based project -- I erased it, verified blank, put it in the freezer for some time, then took it out and programmed it again. All worked fine. Immediately after programming, my infrared thermometer said it was 43 deg-F. I used an ICD2 clone. -Neil. On Sunday 07 October 2007 04:01, Tamas Rudnai wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi Neil, > > He mentioned already, it's room temp - he tries to program it couple of > times, then suddenly it succeeds and then it works fine from that point > until he leaves it for more than two hours. > > What I was wondering if that is really the PIC or the programmer if that > supplies the correct Vpp and Vdd or if that is from an external power > source if that source is the faulty. Also if that PIC can be programmed by > a different programmer when it's 'cold'? BTW a freezer spray would be worth > to try I think so that the PIC could be cooled down separately of other > parts to see if the PIC itself is the weak point here. > > Tamas > > On 10/6/07, PicDude <KILLspampicdude2spamBeGoneavn-tech.com> wrote: > > Hmmm... that's interesting. I am working with 16F877's and 16F877A's > > right now > > and I'm very curious. If you tell me what temp you're considering cold, > > I'd > > be interested to experiment with my setup here. > > > > Cheers, > > -Neil. > > > > On Friday 05 October 2007 13:45, Rob Blanchard wrote: > > > Is this an indication of a bad part? > > > It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify > > > ok. > > > > > > It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times > > > will miss midi messages. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rob > > > > --