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'[PIC] 16F877 fails programming when cold'
2007\10\05@144621 by Rob Blanchard

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Is this an indication of a bad part?
It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
ok.

It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
will miss midi messages.

Thanks,

Rob


2007\10\05@151340 by alan smith

picon face
Just one chip....or do several PIC's fail in the same circuit?  If just one...toss it.  If they all do...then look closer...bad solder joints are often a culprit

Rob Blanchard <spam_OUTRBlanchardTakeThisOuTspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: Is this an indication of a bad part?
It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
ok.

It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
will miss midi messages.

Thanks,

Rob


2007\10\05@152437 by Rob Blanchard

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face
Only 1 16F877 in the circuit which is on a breadboard. It's the only one
I've got right now - just wondering before I order another.

Rob

>>> .....micro_eng2KILLspamspam@spam@yahoo.com 10/5/2007 4:13:37 PM >>>
Just one chip....or do several PIC's fail in the same circuit?  If just
one...toss it.  If they all do...then look closer...bad solder joints
are often a culprit

Rob Blanchard <RBlanchardspamKILLspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote: Is this an indication
of a bad part?
It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
ok.

It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
will miss midi messages.

Thanks,

Rob


2007\10\05@155639 by Bob Blick

face picon face

--- Rob Blanchard <.....RBlanchardKILLspamspam.....hollandc.pe.ca> wrote:

> Only 1 16F877 in the circuit which is on a
> breadboard. It's the only one
> I've got right now - just wondering before I order
> another.

While you're at it you might think about porting it to
a 16F877A.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\10\05@163028 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu On Behalf Of Rob Blanchard
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:46 PM
>
> Is this an indication of a bad part?
> It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
> ok.
>
> It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
> will miss midi messages.

I've used quite a few 16F87X PICs in cold temperatures but I don't think I
ever tried programming one in the cold.

What temperature is cold?

Does everything work OK at room temperature (20-25degC)?

Which temperature range 16F877 are you using?

Paul

>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob

2007\10\05@171348 by alan smith

picon face
I guess thats something we failed to ask...exactly...what is "cold".  Just one that hasn't been running for a while?  Or really....cold...like in the freezer cold.  

Paul Hutchinson <paullhutchinsonspamspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote: > {Original Message removed}

2007\10\05@203758 by Rob Blanchard

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Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program 6-7
times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or so.



Rob Blanchard
Learning Manager
Computer Engineering Technology
Holland College      
140 Weymouth St.
Charlottetown, P.E.I.
C1A 4Z1
Phone: (902) 629-4207
Fax: (902) 566-9355
E-Mail: @spam@rblanchardKILLspamspamhollandc.pe.ca  

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>>> KILLspammicro_eng2KILLspamspamyahoo.com 10/05/07 6:13 PM >>>
I guess thats something we failed to ask...exactly...what is "cold".
Just one that hasn't been running for a while?  Or really....cold...like
in the freezer cold.  

Paul Hutchinson <RemoveMEpaullhutchinsonTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote: > -----Original
Message-----
> From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu On Behalf Of Rob Blanchard
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:46 PM
>
> Is this an indication of a bad part?
> It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
> ok.
>
> It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
> will miss midi messages.

I've used quite a few 16F87X PICs in cold temperatures but I don't think
I
ever tried programming one in the cold.

What temperature is cold?

Does everything work OK at room temperature (20-25degC)?

Which temperature range 16F877 are you using?

Paul

>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob

2007\10\05@213019 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <TakeThisOuTRBlanchardEraseMEspamspam_OUThollandc.pe.ca> wrote:
> Is this an indication of a bad part?
> It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
> ok.
>
> It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
> will miss midi messages.
>

What is your programmer? Some of the old programmers
may fail since they only support the device marginally.

Xiaofan

2007\10\06@075559 by Howard Winter

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Rob,

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:37:39 -0300, Rob Blanchard wrote:

> Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program 6-7
> times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or so.

Then there's something wrong - room temperature is nicely inside the operating temperature range so it should certainly work.

You say it's in a breadboard?  You mean a solderless, plug-in one?  Try removing and reseating the chip a few times - there may be oxidation on the sockets/pins
that's creating bad contacts.

As you only have one chip I was going to suggest that you order samples from Microchip, but I've just checked and that chip (which is pretty old) isn't available for
sampling, but the 877A is (make sure you order the PDIP version! :-)  If there's no solid reason to use the non-A version, I'd say go with the 877A.  It's not exactly
new itself, but for the price it's a bargain :-)  You can order three samples each of 4 different items.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\10\06@084433 by Rob Blanchard

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It's a Chipmaster 6000 - the device is in the list.



Rob Blanchard
Learning Manager
Computer Engineering Technology
Holland College      
140 Weymouth St.
Charlottetown, P.E.I.
C1A 4Z1
Phone: (902) 629-4207
Fax: (902) 566-9355
E-Mail: RemoveMErblanchardspamTakeThisOuThollandc.pe.ca  

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This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately
by return e-mail, delete this message (including any attachments) and
destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a
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illegal.

Holland College reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications
through its networks (Board Regulation 30-07-1).



>>> xiaofancEraseMEspam.....gmail.com 10/05/07 10:30 PM >>>
On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <EraseMERBlanchardspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote:
> Is this an indication of a bad part?
> It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
> ok.
>
> It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
> will miss midi messages.
>

What is your programmer? Some of the old programmers
may fail since they only support the device marginally.

Xiaofan

2007\10\06@084604 by Rob Blanchard

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face
It is on a solderless breadboard and it has been reseated many times.
My programmer (Chipmaster 6000) doesn't support the 877A so that's not
an option.



Rob Blanchard
Learning Manager
Computer Engineering Technology
Holland College      
140 Weymouth St.
Charlottetown, P.E.I.
C1A 4Z1
Phone: (902) 629-4207
Fax: (902) 566-9355
E-Mail: RemoveMErblanchardEraseMEspamEraseMEhollandc.pe.ca  

Confidentiality Caution

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately
by return e-mail, delete this message (including any attachments) and
destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a
person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be
illegal.

Holland College reserves the right to monitor all e-mail communications
through its networks (Board Regulation 30-07-1).



>>> RemoveMEHDRWspam_OUTspamKILLspamH2Org.demon.co.uk 10/06/07 8:55 AM >>>
Rob,

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:37:39 -0300, Rob Blanchard wrote:

> Cold is just room temp - it programs ok after attempting to program
6-7
> times, then will program fine if programmed again within 2 hours or
so.

Then there's something wrong - room temperature is nicely inside the
operating temperature range so it should certainly work.

You say it's in a breadboard?  You mean a solderless, plug-in one?  Try
removing and reseating the chip a few times - there may be oxidation on
the sockets/pins
that's creating bad contacts.

As you only have one chip I was going to suggest that you order samples
from Microchip, but I've just checked and that chip (which is pretty
old) isn't available for
sampling, but the 877A is (make sure you order the PDIP version! :-)  If
there's no solid reason to use the non-A version, I'd say go with the
877A.  It's not exactly
new itself, but for the price it's a bargain :-)  You can order three
samples each of 4 different items.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\10\06@090447 by Bob Axtell

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Bob Blick wrote:
> --- Rob Blanchard <RemoveMERBlanchardTakeThisOuTspamspamhollandc.pe.ca> wrote:
>
>  
>> Only 1 16F877 in the circuit which is on a
>> breadboard. It's the only one
>> I've got right now - just wondering before I order
>> another.
>>    
>
> While you're at it you might think about porting it to
> a 16F877A.
>
> Cheerful regards,
>
> Bob
>
>  
Yes, it allows you to use a development tool.

Also, remember that statistically, ONE of anything does not a trend
make. In other words,
it is possible you have a defective component.

Never develop anything with only one item on hand.

--Bob

2007\10\06@133730 by PicDude

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face
Hmmm... that's interesting. I am working with 16F877's and 16F877A's right now
and I'm very curious. If you tell me what temp you're considering cold, I'd
be interested to experiment with my setup here.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Friday 05 October 2007 13:45, Rob Blanchard wrote:
> Is this an indication of a bad part?
> It will then successfully program on the 6th or 7th pass and verify
> ok.
>
> It's in a midi project that will sometimes work correctly, other times
> will miss midi messages.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob

2007\10\07@050131 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi Neil,

He mentioned already, it's room temp - he tries to program it couple of
times, then suddenly it succeeds and then it works fine from that point
until he leaves it for more than two hours.

What I was wondering if that is really the PIC or the programmer if that
supplies the correct Vpp and Vdd or if that is from an external power source
if that source is the faulty. Also if that PIC can be programmed by a
different programmer when it's 'cold'? BTW a freezer spray would be worth to
try I think so that the PIC could be cooled down separately of other parts
to see if the PIC itself is the weak point here.

Tamas




On 10/6/07, PicDude <EraseMEpicdude2spamspamspamBeGoneavn-tech.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\07@053057 by M Wedin

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It would be interesting to know if it is the actual temperature that is to
blame. What happens if the chip is preheated by some 10 or 20 degrees above
room temperature?

Quite academic, but still interesting.

Wed


2007/10/7, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiKILLspamspamgmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

2007\10\08@005246 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/6/07, Rob Blanchard <spamBeGonerblanchardSTOPspamspamEraseMEhollandc.pe.ca> wrote:
> It is on a solderless breadboard and it has been reseated many times.
> My programmer (Chipmaster 6000) doesn't support the 877A so that's not
> an option.
>

One option is to forget about this ChipMaster and buy the cheap
PICkit 2 (US$35+shipment) and a ZIF socket.

It seems to be an old product and the upgrade is quite
expensive.
http://www.logicaldevices.com/Products/cm6000.htm

Last time when I was deciding to buy a programmer for
PIC development back in early year 2000, there were
two options, one was to upgrade the universal programmer
from Sprint (now Data I/O). It was so expensive to update
the software that I chose the 2nd option -- to buy a
Promate II and some sockets.

Xiaofan

2007\10\08@145743 by PicDude

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face
I tried a test last night with my 16F877 (TQFP)-based project -- I erased it,
verified blank, put it in the freezer for some time, then took it out and
programmed it again. All worked fine. Immediately after programming, my
infrared thermometer said it was 43 deg-F.  I used an ICD2 clone.

-Neil.



On Sunday 07 October 2007 04:01, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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