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'[PIC] 16F628 vs 16F84 preaching. Was and really'
2002\07\31@104525 by Pic Dude

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Wouter van Ooijen typed:

> 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
> have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
> * you can not get hold of any other chip
> * you are building an exsiting design
> * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)

Add "* someone else who wants to get on the 16F628 bandwagon will
    sell you their 16F84's for pennies on the dollar."


Anyway, somewhat like preaching Linux in lieu of Windows, I feel
that needs to be a better display of support for the 16F628 if
this preaching is to be successful.  Like myself, a beginner will
want lots of support, and simple step-by-step proven designs to
get their first PIC project running.  "Hello World" for the PIC,
if you will.  This implies using a popular chip, and a newbie now
getting into PICs will usually go to other sources for info first
rather than this list.  They will see the following first:
 - A quick web search shows a ton of 16F84 circuits doing all
   sorts of simple things (instead of the 16F628).
 - A quick scan of PIC books at the local Barnes & Noble or
   Borders results in a tons of 16F84 circuits.  I still check
   these books when I'm there, and still haven't found any on
   the 16F628 yet.
 - A quick web search for programmers shows a whole slew of
   16x84 programmers, rather than the 16F628.

It tells a beginner -- here's a lot of things to do with a 16x84,
and here are a lot of ways to program it.

Some of the benefits we're preaching mean nothing to a newbie.
If you want to flash LED's, more memory means nothing.  Hardware
PWM, comparators and USARTs mean nothing to a newbie with a very
simple goal in mind.   It would be much easier to preach the
benefits of using the 16F628 to a complete beginner if there were
lots of support in place.  Don't tell them -- show them that it
really is more popular.  That means we (PICsters who have a clue
beyond the newbie level) need to start pushing 16F628 designs on
the web.  Those of us with circuits on the web need to start
converting the designs for the 16F628.  The Piclist pages need
to be changed to indicate that the 16F628 is now the preferred
chip and show sample circuits for that.  (When I started, I built
a bunch of the projects under the Cheapic page, such as bincnt,
eggtimer, binclock, etc, and those are all for the 16F84).

Etc, etc, etc.

Cheers,
-Neil.

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'[PIC] 16F628 vs 16F84 preaching. Was and really'
2002\08\01@010900 by Byron A Jeff
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On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:43:38AM -0500, Pic Dude wrote:
> Wouter van Ooijen typed:
>
> > 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
> > have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
> > * you can not get hold of any other chip
> > * you are building an exsiting design
> > * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)
>
> Add "* someone else who wants to get on the 16F628 bandwagon will
>      sell you their 16F84's for pennies on the dollar."
>
>
> Anyway, somewhat like preaching Linux in lieu of Windows,

Which I try not to do. That's religion. PIC differences aren't.

> I feel that needs to be a better display of support for the 16F628 if
> this preaching is to be successful.  Like myself, a beginner will
> want lots of support, and simple step-by-step proven designs to
> get their first PIC project running.  "Hello World" for the PIC,
> if you will.

OK. I can buy that. I'll put up a 16F628 based blinky LED on my page.


{Quote hidden}

That's all inertia due to the fact that 16F84 had a 6-7 year head start.
Only time will overcome that.

Also novices are unaware that the 16F84 programmers be definition must be
more complex than the 16F628 programmer, due to lack of LVP. So they end up
spending a significant amount of time developing and debugging the tool
instead of getting to work.

Lastly many of those serial based programmers are defective because they
trust that the clamping diodes will clamp the excess voltage and that RS232
is going to operate out of spec with 0-5V only. Then you hear newbies wailing
about the fact that the programmer doesn't work.

>
> Some of the benefits we're preaching mean nothing to a newbie.
> If you want to flash LED's, more memory means nothing.  Hardware
> PWM, comparators and USARTs mean nothing to a newbie with a very
> simple goal in mind.

But it's the classic fallacy. Novices never stay novices. Projects very quickly
become more complex as the novice developer becomes more comfortable with the
environment.

So very soon after the blinky LED and the simple LCD interface, the novice
will start tacking projects where the additional timers and hardware are a
godsend.

{Quote hidden}

I'll do my part ;-)

BAJ

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2002\08\01@013538 by Pic Dude

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> But it's the classic fallacy. Novices never stay novices.
> Projects very quickly
> become more complex as the novice developer becomes more
> comfortable with the
> environment.

Agreed, but novices usually don't look that far ahead when scratching
their heads and thinking where to begin.  A few bucks wasted on a
16F84 "feet-wetter" is no big deal to almost anyone.

I'll agree with others that there really is a good amount of PIC 16F628
info out there, but most newbies don't want to tackle a month's worth
of docs before seeing their LED's blink.

Hey, I have an idea -- let's buy a bunch of those LED's that have
built-in blinkers, and sell them to newbies for $5 each, telling
them that they include pre-programmed 16F84's.  Connect a couple
volts, watch it blink, ditch it, then pick up some 16F628's. :-)
I'll go reserve my spot on late-night infomercial TV now -- right
between the Hollywood 24-hr diet and the 30-minute millionaire
system. :-)

> OK. I can buy that. I'll put up a 16F628 based blinky LED on my page.

That's the spirit! :-)

And of course, I make these demands on you folks, when I've been
meaning to get my own web pages up and running (and include a bunch
of good PIC content) for a while now.  Slap on my own wrist.  :-(

Cheers,
-Neil.




> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\01@022552 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> OK. I can buy that. I'll put up a 16F628 based blinky LED on my page.

http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 :

Blinking LEDs for 16c84, 16f84, 16f84a, 16f627/8, 16f87, 16f73, 16f76
16f870, 16f872, 16f873, 16f876, 16f74, 16f77, 16f871, 16f874, 16f877.

Sources (Jal), hex files, circuits, breadboard pictures etc.

I hope to add 16f87xA, 16f7xA, 18fxxx 'soon'.

BTW the most simple (target) circuit is of course a 16f628 with internal
oscillator!

Wouter van Ooijen

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PICmicro chips, programmers, consulting

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2002\08\01@100445 by Byron A Jeff

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On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 12:32:37AM -0500, Pic Dude wrote:
> > But it's the classic fallacy. Novices never stay novices.
> > Projects very quickly
> > become more complex as the novice developer becomes more
> > comfortable with the
> > environment.
>
> Agreed, but novices usually don't look that far ahead when scratching
> their heads and thinking where to begin.  A few bucks wasted on a
> 16F84 "feet-wetter" is no big deal to almost anyone.

It's not about the money. It's about the mindset. The 16F84 makes simple
things simple and complex things difficult. The 16F628 makes simple things
simpler and complex things simpler too. All that's missing is a lack of
information.

>
> I'll agree with others that there really is a good amount of PIC 16F628
> info out there, but most newbies don't want to tackle a month's worth
> of docs before seeing their LED's blink.

Agreed. Documented boilerplate is needed.

{Quote hidden}

I wrote it last night. I need to put a huge disclaimer at the top:

; WARNING!!! YOU MUST TIE RB4/PGM to GROUND IF YOU ARE USING LVP MODE!!!

I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't blink until I had my DOH! moment.

>
> And of course, I make these demands on you folks, when I've been
> meaning to get my own web pages up and running (and include a bunch
> of good PIC content) for a while now.  Slap on my own wrist.  :-(

No problem. We all do what we can.

BAJ

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