Post by thread:[PIC] - Best all around programmer

Hi folks, I'm currently using a Melabs serial programmer and I have an ICD2 clone from Hong Kong, but they belong to my boss and I need to get my own at some time. What I would like to find is one programmer that will do both LVP and HVP so I can do in-circuit programming and debugging, and also high voltage programming for projects like the two I've done where we used all 16 I/O pins on a PIC16F819 and could not do LVP. The last thing is that I need it to work with Linux. Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - especially for working in Linux? Thanks, Moses

Moses McKnight wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm currently using a Melabs serial programmer and I have an ICD2 > clone from Hong Kong, but they belong to my boss and I need to get my > own at some time. What I would like to find is one programmer that will > do both LVP and HVP so I can do in-circuit programming and debugging, > and also high voltage programming for projects like the two I've done > where we used all 16 I/O pins on a PIC16F819 and could not do LVP. You can do high voltage programming in circuit. Really the only reason to use LVP is to make a very cheap crappy programmer. > The > last thing is that I need it to work with Linux. > Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - > especially for working in Linux? > > The debug facilities on the ICD2 are usefull but it's pricey and not the best programmer either. Still it's not bad and the clones are not too expensive. piklab supports the ICD2 on linux though i'm not sure what it's range of targets is like. Other decent options for programmers include the pickit 2 and olins usbprog but i'm not sure what thier linux support is like.

Moses McKnight wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm currently using a Melabs serial programmer and I have an ICD2 > clone from Hong Kong, but they belong to my boss and I need to get my > own at some time. What I would like to find is one programmer that will > do both LVP Why LVP ? Very few uses LVP. > and HVP so I can do in-circuit programming and debugging, > and also high voltage programming for projects like the two I've done > where we used all 16 I/O pins on a PIC16F819 and could not do LVP. The > last thing is that I need it to work with Linux. > Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - > especially for working in Linux? If you actualy needs/wants ICD the available opitions are fewer. Personly I use one popular hobbyist programmer called Wisp628 found here : http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/index.html Regards, Jan-Erik. > Thanks, > Moses

> > Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best > alternatives - > > especially for working in Linux? My Wisp628, or rather the Xwisp PC software, runs OK on Linux. Downside is that the range of supported chips will always lag behind the uChip products. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote: > Moses McKnight wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm currently using a Melabs serial programmer and I have an ICD2 >> clone from Hong Kong, but they belong to my boss and I need to get my >> own at some time. What I would like to find is one programmer that will >> do both LVP > > Why LVP ? Very few uses LVP. I was under the impression that in-circuit programming was LVP (low voltage programming). Is that not the case? Even so, ICSP uses some pins that cannot be used for I/O and I have already done projects where I needed every available I/O pin. So I need a programmer with high voltage programming. What I'm hoping is to be able to get one that does both instead of having to get two programmers. {Quote hidden}> > and HVP so I can do in-circuit programming and debugging, > > and also high voltage programming for projects like the two I've done >> where we used all 16 I/O pins on a PIC16F819 and could not do LVP. The >> last thing is that I need it to work with Linux. >> Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - >> especially for working in Linux? > > If you actualy needs/wants ICD the available opitions are fewer. > Personly I use one popular hobbyist programmer called > Wisp628 found here : http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/index.html I just looked at the Wisp628 again and it says it is and in-circuit programmer but it does HVP! I guess I need to do some more research... Moses

On Fri, 2007-08-31 at 18:03 -0500, Moses McKnight wrote: > I was under the impression that in-circuit programming was LVP (low > voltage programming). Is that not the case? That is not the case. ICSP says nothing about HVP or LVP. Most ICSP I've used use HVP. > Even so, ICSP uses some > pins that cannot be used for I/O and I have already done projects where > I needed every available I/O pin. So I need a programmer with high > voltage programming. ICSP uses IO pins to program, true, but this has nothing to do with whether it's done using LVP or HVP. A good programmer will tristate it's drivers after programming, and a good PIC design will allow the programmer to drive those lines when needed. TTYL

> I was under the impression that in-circuit programming was LVP (low > voltage programming). Is that not the case? Even so, ICSP uses some > pins that cannot be used for I/O and I have already done projects where > I needed every available I/O pin. So I need a programmer with high > voltage programming. What I'm hoping is to be able to get one that does > both instead of having to get two programmers. > Your impressions are rather wrong Pics are always programmed serially. Whether they are sitting in a target circuit or a socket dedicated to programming is generally irrelvent to the programmer circuit. Hardly any programmers use LVP, it wastes an IO pin on the target device and leaves a much greater possibility of the device going into program mode inadvertantly during normal operation. Really the only advantage of LVP is it saves on parts in the programmer. There is no reason you can't use every IO line and program in circuit. Resistors can be added such that the programmer and pic can control the line during programming but the line can be used as an input or low power output when the circuit is in use. If you decide to disable MCLR programming gets a little tricker because the programmer needs to control VDD to get such chips into program mode but there are programmers that can control VDD and provide sufficiant current to drive a large target circuit (for example olin's proprog).

peter green wrote: {Quote hidden}>> I was under the impression that in-circuit programming was LVP (low >> voltage programming). Is that not the case? Even so, ICSP uses some >> pins that cannot be used for I/O and I have already done projects where >> I needed every available I/O pin. So I need a programmer with high >> voltage programming. What I'm hoping is to be able to get one that does >> both instead of having to get two programmers. >> > Your impressions are rather wrong > > Pics are always programmed serially. Whether they are sitting in a > target circuit or a socket dedicated to programming is generally > irrelvent to the programmer circuit. Hardly any programmers use LVP, it > wastes an IO pin on the target device and leaves a much greater > possibility of the device going into program mode inadvertantly during > normal operation. Really the only advantage of LVP is it saves on parts > in the programmer. > > There is no reason you can't use every IO line and program in circuit. > Resistors can be added such that the programmer and pic can control the > line during programming but the line can be used as an input or low > power output when the circuit is in use. If you decide to disable MCLR > programming gets a little tricker because the programmer needs to > control VDD to get such chips into program mode but there are > programmers that can control VDD and provide sufficiant current to drive > a large target circuit (for example olin's proprog). Ok, I'm remembering some more now - it's been a number of months since I looked into programmers last and I knew way less about PIC chips then than I do now (which is still not a fantastic lot). I think the main problem I had was that I had to disable MCLR and couldn't program the chip using ICD2. The melabs programmer works just fine for that. I was confusing LVP with ICSP, and it is ICSP I couldn't do (at least with the ICD2) with MCLR disabled. Thanks for the information. Moses

On 9/1/07, Moses McKnight <spam_OUTmosesTakeThisOuTskytex.net> wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm currently using a Melabs serial programmer and I have an ICD2 > clone from Hong Kong, but they belong to my boss and I need to get my > own at some time. What I would like to find is one programmer that will > do both LVP and HVP so I can do in-circuit programming and debugging, > and also high voltage programming for projects like the two I've done > where we used all 16 I/O pins on a PIC16F819 and could not do LVP. The > last thing is that I need it to work with Linux. > Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - > especially for working in Linux? > Other people have comments about LVP so I will not repeat. For programming under Linux Wisp628 is a good choice. PICkit 2 is a good choice as well. pk2 is quite ok even though it currently only supports the old firmware. piklab is another choice. The next version of pk2 will support PICkit 2 firmware V2 but we have to wait for it. piklab supports ICD2 under Linux as a programmer. Last time when I tested it, it worked with 16F819. For debugging under Linux, IMHO piklab/ICD2 is the only viable choice and I am not so sure how well it works. It lists 16F819 as supported but not tested. I do not have a proper ICD 2 now so I have not really supported testing of ICD2 for piklab. And piklab does not work with PICkit 2 firmware V2 so my involvement with piklab is limited right now. If you forget about Linux, then ICD2 and PICkit 2 will be good choice under Windows for both programming and debugging of many PICs. IMHO PICkit 2 is a better programmer than ICD2 but ICD2 is a better debugger than PICkit 2 now. Some links: wisp628/xwisp2: http://www.robh.nl/picsoft.php pk2: http://home.pacbell.net/theposts/picmicro/ piklab: http://piklab.sourceforge.net/ pickit-devel: http://groups.google.com/group/pickit-devel gnupic: http://www.gnupic.org/ PICkit 2 web page: http://www.microchip.com/pickit2 MPLAB ICD2: http://www.microchip.com/icd2 Regards, Xiaofan

On 9/1/07, Moses McKnight <.....mosesKILLspam@spam@skytex.net> wrote: > Ok, I'm remembering some more now - it's been a number of months since I > looked into programmers last and I knew way less about PIC chips then > than I do now (which is still not a fantastic lot). I think the main > problem I had was that I had to disable MCLR and couldn't program the > chip using ICD2. The melabs programmer works just fine for that. I was > confusing LVP with ICSP, and it is ICSP I couldn't do (at least with the > ICD2) with MCLR disabled. > ICD2 and Wisp628 do not control Vdd so they have problems with this setup. PICkit 2 and some other programmers like USBprog from Olin will control Vdd/Vpp so that they have less probelms with this kind of configuration (Eg: internal MCLR and internal RC). This is one of the reasons why I say PICkit 2 is a better programmer than ICD2. PICkit 2 is also much cheaper than ICD2. It is also cheaper than most of the proper ICD2 clone. Regards, Xiaofan

> I was under the impression that in-circuit programming was > LVP (low voltage programming). Is that not the case? no > Even > so, ICSP uses some pins that cannot be used for I/O and I > have already done projects where I needed every available I/O > pin. So I need a programmer with high voltage programming. yes, but not for that reason. > I just looked at the Wisp628 again and it says it is and > in-circuit programmer but it does HVP! I guess I need to do > some more research... maybe read http://www.voti.nl/swp Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

On 8/31/07, Moses McKnight <mosesKILLspamskytex.net> wrote: > Is there such a beast? If not, what are the best alternatives - > especially for working in Linux? > I've been using my pickit2 by running windows in VMWare Player. VMWare player will allow usb devices to be used by the guest OS. You can set up file sharing between the host OS (linux) and the guest OS (windows) this allows things to go a little smoother. Not the perfect setup, but it does work! Jon.

> > Downside is that the range of supported chips will always > lag behind > > the uChip products. > > I could be wrong, but another downside (atleast for me) would > be that the Wisp cannot be used directly from inside MPLAB. Correct, but I never saw that as a big drawback. Are there any non-uChip (non-clone) programmers that can be used from MPLAB? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 07:41 +0200, wouter van ooijen wrote: > > > Downside is that the range of supported chips will always > > lag behind > > > the uChip products. > > > > I could be wrong, but another downside (atleast for me) would > > be that the Wisp cannot be used directly from inside MPLAB. > > Correct, but I never saw that as a big drawback. > > Are there any non-uChip (non-clone) programmers that can be used from > MPLAB? WARP-13 had support in MPLAB through emulating the command set of the PICSTART. It's the reason I bought the programmer. Unfortunately the developer decided to start charging for the software, even for people who bought actual WARP-13s, so it's now sitting in a trash heap. TTYL

Herbert Graf wrote: {Quote hidden}> On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 07:41 +0200, wouter van ooijen wrote: > >>>> Downside is that the range of supported chips will always >>>> >>> lag behind >>> >>>> the uChip products. >>>> >>> I could be wrong, but another downside (atleast for me) would >>> be that the Wisp cannot be used directly from inside MPLAB. >>> >> Correct, but I never saw that as a big drawback. >> >> Are there any non-uChip (non-clone) programmers that can be used from >> MPLAB? >> > > WARP-13 had support in MPLAB through emulating the command set of the > PICSTART. It's the reason I bought the programmer. Unfortunately the > developer decided to start charging for the software, even for people > who bought actual WARP-13s, so it's now sitting in a trash heap. > > TTYL > > Hmm I have a warp-13a, haven't really done anything with pics in a long while, anyone know if it is worth it to bother paying the $35 for bluepole 1.7? seems it's a year old all ready, does it still work with mplab? can't really find any useful info on his site, it just seems generally hostile.