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'[PIC] [ADMIN] [JAMES] piclist liberally quoted all'
2004\10\15@182045 by Peter L. Peres

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While I do not really mind, this should be known. It means code posted on
the piclist becomes public domain and may be used by commercial 3rd
parties as a 'resource':

http://www.microchipc.com/PIC_tips_4.asp

I was not aware of any affiliation of http://www.microchipc.com/ with
piclist, http://www.piclist.com aor aything else.

Is this list's archive public, or not. Once and for all.

Peter
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2004\10\15@185418 by D. Jay Newman

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> While I do not really mind, this should be known. It means code posted on
> the piclist becomes public domain and may be used by commercial 3rd
> parties as a 'resource':

Anything posted on the net is public. This is very different from being
in the public domain.
--
D. Jay Newman           ! DCX - it takes off and lands base down,
spam_OUTjayTakeThisOuTspamsprucegrove.com     !       as God and Robert Heinlein intended.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !
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2004\10\15@190505 by Robert Rolf

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"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>
> While I do not really mind, this should be known. It means code posted on
> the piclist becomes public domain and may be used by commercial 3rd
> parties as a 'resource':

Uhhh, wasn't that the reason you shared the code in the
first place?? If you post ANYTHING, ANYWHERE (list, newsgroup,
web site) it is effectively 'public domain', even though
you -should- be able to retain your copyrights to it.

> http://www.microchipc.com/PIC_tips_4.asp
>
> I was not aware of any affiliation of http://www.microchipc.com/ with
> piclist, http://www.piclist.com aor aything else.

They have an explicit disclaimer.
"
This site is a completely separate site to http://www.microchip.com,
and is maintained independently of Microchip Ltd.,
manufacturers of the PIC micro.
All code on this site is free for non-commercial use.
Commercial use normally free, however, it is prohibited
without contacting DesignREM Ltd. for permission.

{but they do NOT have the authority to GRANT permission,
so what's the point of the footer?}

All content on this site created by Shane Tolmie is
Copyrighted by Shane Tolmie 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.
================

EXCUSE ME???
The people who posted the "original work" own the copyright.
By posting publicly, they may have given up that right.
Shane CANNOT then lay claim to some else's work.

> Is this list's archive public, or not. Once and for all.

piclist.com is publically accessible, so this list
is effectively PUBLIC.

For a time it was also gated into a newsgroup,
WITHOUT proper email address filtering, with the
result that many posters were spammed as punishment
for their contribution to piclist.

The noted site has some nice resources, BUT
it's only a matter of time before Microchip sends
their lawyers after him for trademark infringement.
Look at how Tony's picmicro.com site was forced to
change names because of corporate lawyering.

Robert
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2004\10\15@202628 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post it, it becomes
public as in public domain. Period. I'm always amazed that this confuses
people.

If you want it GPL'd then release it with a GPL license on a web site (like
PICList.com) and point to it from the list.

If you want it copyrighted, call a lawyer.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\16@034302 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:26 PM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post it, it
> becomes public as in public domain. Period.

Actually, I think it's closers to becoming "public, as in published."
That's always been a gray area; if you published in a printed magazine,
you wouldn't be surprised if snippets of your code showed up elsewhere,
right?  I think the microchipC site did ok; sources indicated, all
names included (and email addresses;  Sigh.)

Tolmie isn't claiming copyright of your code, he's got a blanket
statement that stuff he wrote is copyright by him.  A bit strong
for someone quoting other sources (if he does that a lot), but not
unreasonable.  The blanket "licensing terms" for code is probably
more applicable to the full-sized downloads than "tips", but it
might be interesting to see what he says if you ask from an anonymous
account about permission to use your own code in a commercial venture.
It looks like a pretty well-behaved site; I'd expect that you'd get
an answer that said you should contact the original author...

BillW

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2004\10\16@152526 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, D. Jay Newman wrote:

>> While I do not really mind, this should be known. It means code posted on
>> the piclist becomes public domain and may be used by commercial 3rd
>> parties as a 'resource':
>
> Anything posted on the net is public. This is very different from being
> in the public domain.

The site I mentioned specifically mentions that the site content is (C)
its author, and that it requires his permission for any kind of use. This,
under a fully quoted message from me and from B. Blick (I am flattered),
both taken from the piclist. That is *not* public, *nor* public domain. It
is precisely what some people (me too) loathe in quoting/archiving
messages. Some call it hijacking. In this particular case I do not mind,
*but* I asked the question for a reason.

Peter
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2004\10\16@152528 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Robert Rolf wrote:

> "Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>>
>> While I do not really mind, this should be known. It means code posted on
>> the piclist becomes public domain and may be used by commercial 3rd
>> parties as a 'resource':
>
> Uhhh, wasn't that the reason you shared the code in the
> first place?? If you post ANYTHING, ANYWHERE (list, newsgroup,
> web site) it is effectively 'public domain', even though
> you -should- be able to retain your copyrights to it.

Yes, BUT I'd like to know where it goes and who has control over it. If
you want to know, I just searched for myself on Google and Google groups,
with key "peter l. peres". Be sure to expand the search results (show
'similar' results which were hidden) if you do this to yourself or with
my key. Otherwise Google will hide a lot of postings.

> All code on this site is free for non-commercial use.
> Commercial use normally free, however, it is prohibited
> without contacting DesignREM Ltd. for permission.
>
> {but they do NOT have the authority to GRANT permission,
> so what's the point of the footer?}

Aha, you are getting the point alright I think.

> All content on this site created by Shane Tolmie is
> Copyrighted by Shane Tolmie 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.
> ================
>
> EXCUSE ME???
> The people who posted the "original work" own the copyright.
> By posting publicly, they may have given up that right.
> Shane CANNOT then lay claim to some else's work.

Yep. And yet ...

>> Is this list's archive public, or not. Once and for all.
>
> piclist.com is publically accessible, so this list
> is effectively PUBLIC.

What exactly is the legal meaning of public whereabouts you are ? Does it
mean anything you lay hands on and claim is yours unless the owner sues
you ? I hope not. F.ex in the above case an additional line by Shane
saying 'message contents are copyrighted by their respective authors'
would have cleared him. But there is no such message.

{Quote hidden}

I know, I was asking this for a reason. I understand Shane's position but
we already know it is untenable. Or is it ?

Peter
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2004\10\16@152536 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post it, it becomes
> public as in public domain. Period. I'm always amazed that this confuses
> people.

What confuses me is someone claiming rights to it in despite of this, not
what I released. See my other message.

> If you want it GPL'd then release it with a GPL license on a web site (like
> PICList.com) and point to it from the list.
>
> If you want it copyrighted, call a lawyer.

Peter
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2004\10\16@155332 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 02:39:39PM -0400, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
> >How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post it, it becomes
> >public as in public domain. Period. I'm always amazed that this confuses
> >people.
>
> What confuses me is someone claiming rights to it in despite of this, not
> what I released. See my other message.

Actually both positions are incorrect. Any original expression is automatically
copyrighted the moment it's fixed into a media. So each and every one of our
message are copyright to us (at least in the USA).

>
> >If you want it GPL'd then release it with a GPL license on a web site (like
> >PICList.com) and point to it from the list.
> >
> >If you want it copyrighted, call a lawyer.

No need. It is copyrighted. Call a lawyer if you wish to enforce the copyright.

Be aware that many can simply claim fair use. I'm implicitly doing that by
using your copyrighted text in this message.

BAJ
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2004\10\16@160503 by piclist
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face
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:

> The site I mentioned specifically mentions that the site content is (C)
> its author, and that it requires his permission for any kind of use.

Copyrighting the site does not require having copyright over the
individual items on the site.  There is the concept of "compilation
copyright."

> All content on this site created by Shane Tolmie is
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Copyrighted by Shane Tolmie 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.

I don't see that as claiming copyright on anything created by other
people.

--
John W. Temples, III
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2004\10\17@010456 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Ah. Well, people claim all sorts of things. Doesn't make them true.

A lot of people will just put a copyright notice on the bottom of every page
"just incase" or because they say it keeps some corporation from
copyrighting it and then claiming that the original site isn't allowed to
publish it. All of that is rubbish.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2004\10\17@152807 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post
> it, it becomes public as in public domain.

IMHO this is nonsense, at least in my country. And AFAIK from my law
courses it is no differenent in most countries, with the possible
exception of the USA.

(According to Dutch law) *everything* that is made public and is
copyrighteable is automatically copyrighted. On the internet as well as
when spoken from a box in Speakers Corner. If you (as author) wants this
to be different it is up to you to take action.

AFAIK in the USA some (c) notice is required to establish copyright.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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2004\10\17@202802 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Ah. Well, people claim all sorts of things. Doesn't make them true.
>
> A lot of people will just put a copyright notice on the bottom of every page
> "just incase" or because they say it keeps some corporation from
> copyrighting it and then claiming that the original site isn't allowed to
> publish it. All of that is rubbish.

But other lists specifically add the line about 'not responsible for / do
not endorse content posted by our contribuors' and 'we acknowledge the
original author's copyright'. And some don't. I was reading recently about
people who had to fight in court to be allowed to use their own creations
after a happy camper put their stuff on his website and later sold the
whole thing to a company who promptly send a cease & desist to the
original author(s). It took years to clear. I can find some references if
you need.

Peter
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2004\10\17@202808 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 02:39:39PM -0400, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>>
>>> How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post it, it becomes
>>> public as in public domain. Period. I'm always amazed that this confuses
>>> people.
>>
>> What confuses me is someone claiming rights to it in despite of this, not
>> what I released. See my other message.
>
> Actually both positions are incorrect. Any original expression is automatically
> copyrighted the moment it's fixed into a media. So each and every one of our
> message are copyright to us (at least in the USA).

I hope that you are right in the sense that I won't need to hire a lawyer
to make the *law* prevail. You know what I mean ;-(

thanks,

Peter

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2004\10\17@220812 by Win Wiencke

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<Wouter van Ooijen observes>

> AFAIK in the USA some (c) notice is required to establish copyright.

Yeah. There is a conflict between legal theories here.

One theory says if you made it, it is your property.  This right to the
benefits of intellectual property is construed to be part of the US
Constitution.

Another theory says that it is unreasonable to expect someone to respect
your property rights unless you claim them.  This stems from English common
law.

The (c) symbol, however, is a weak indicator that not only have you claimed
ownership, but you have registered it with the US government.

Typically ownership is claimed with "Copyright Foo, all rights reserved
2004"

That's probably more than you wanted to know about the colonies, Wouter --
so I apologize in advance...

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation

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2004\10\20@171233 by Howard Winter

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Wouter,

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:26:06 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > How could a public mailing list be any other way? You post
> > it, it becomes public as in public domain.
>
> IMHO this is nonsense, at least in my country.

In mine too!  There is a lot of confusion here between "in public" and "in the public domain" - the former
just means it's been made visible to the public (for example this message I'm typing, or the BBC television 9
o'clock news, both of which are the copyright, of me and the BBC respectively) whereas "public domain" means
that it is free from copyright - anyone may use it as they like.

> And AFAIK from my law
> courses it is no differenent in most countries, with the possible
> exception of the USA.

> (According to Dutch law) *everything* that is made public and is
> copyrighteable is automatically copyrighted. On the internet as well as
> when spoken from a box in Speakers Corner. If you (as author) wants this
> to be different it is up to you to take action.

Exactly the same applies under English law.

A similar confusion is also made by journalists, between: "In the public interest" and "of interest to the
public"!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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