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'[PIC] : confused 16c84 and 16f84 -'
2000\09\03@033040 by pang khong lin

picon face
I am new to PIC and are slightly overwhelm by all the information
available.At the moment my priority is on quickly be able program my PIN
16f84 and get familiar with the programming. Questions that i need help on :
-

1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program either
16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the chip
are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that it
can program a 16c84 but says nothing on 16f84, can i actually used it for
16f84? ( and vice versa?)

2. if it is not, what is the difference?

thanks and good day


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2000\09\03@034323 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

picon face
Unless your are concerned about either code protection or the power-up
delay timer (both unlikely) you can use a 16f84 as if it were a 16c84.
Wouter

----------
> From: pang khong lin <.....klpangKILLspamspam@spam@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [PIC] : confused 16c84 and 16f84 -
> Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 09:30
>
> I am new to PIC and are slightly overwhelm by all the information
> available.At the moment my priority is on quickly be able program my PIN
> 16f84 and get familiar with the programming. Questions that i need help
on :
> -
>
> 1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program
either
> 16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the
chip
> are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that
it
{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\03@090714 by Olin Lathrop

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> 1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program either
> 16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the chip
> are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that
it
> can program a 16c84 but says nothing on 16f84, can i actually used it for
> 16f84? ( and vice versa?)

I don't know, but do you really want to get a programmer that only does some
of the chips?  I recommend you just get the PicstartPlus.  It's not
expensive and it covers the whole product line.  Since it's supported by
Microchip, upgrades will be available as new chips are released.

Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no
point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble on the web.
By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it
will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus.  And then you'll still have
to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the
chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.


*****************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Devens Massachusetts
(978) 772-3129, olinspamspam_OUTcognivis.com, http://www.cognivis.com

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2000\09\03@091751 by Scott Dattalo

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On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>                               For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The proper euphemism is: Hobbiest.

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2000\09\03@093311 by Jinx
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> I don't know, but do you really want to get a programmer that only does
> some of the chips?  I recommend you just get the PicstartPlus.  It's not
> expensive and it covers the whole product line.  Since it's supported by
> Microchip, upgrades will be available as new chips are released.

I'd have to disagree slightly with that - for a year or two I used a NZ$50
programmer and simple text editor/assembler just for C84/F84. Nothing
fancy, but it got me started until I could afford/justify a PSP, which as
you
say, with MPLAB, is a very good entry level system

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2000\09\03@103521 by Andy Howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamBeGonespamCOGNIVIS.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC] : confused 16c84 and 16f84 -


> > 1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program
either
> > 16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the
chip
> > are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that
> it
> > can program a 16c84 but says nothing on 16f84, can i actually used it
for
> > 16f84? ( and vice versa?)
>
> I don't know, but do you really want to get a programmer that only does
some
> of the chips?  I recommend you just get the PicstartPlus.  It's not
> expensive and it covers the whole product line.  Since it's supported by
> Microchip, upgrades will be available as new chips are released.
>
> Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no
> point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble on the
web.
> By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it
> will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus.  And then you'll still have
> to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the
> chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.


I think we need to look at what he needs it for, like most things there are
horses that run better on some courses than others.

If it's for professional use I agree with you entirely, spend the money and
get the tool for the job, I did and that's what I'd recommend to anyone in a
similar position. It isn't worth messing around building tools when you
should be doing the stuff that brings in the cash. As you say, Microchip is
likely to support new devices on it for the foreseeable future (though 16B
owners might wince at this point).

And of course, it's all tax-deductible anyway.

If it's just needed to program a couple of '84s e.g. to build a magazine
project with no intention of using PICs regularly then a PICStartPlus is
distinctly over-specified and one of the ultra-cheapo "no parts" programmers
would suffice.

For a hobbyist or student, the cost of a PS+ is not inconsiderable and it
may be that trading time for dollars makes more sense to them. In some
countries the PS+ can cost the equivalent of several week's salary. Also,
for a beginner there is plenty to learn from building (and then debugging!)
your own kit - and of course the great satisfaction of having done so
successfully.


Pang Khong Lin might also want to look at:
www.piclist.com/techref/default.asp?from=/techref/piclist/../microchi
p/&url=devprogs.htm
where James has a pretty comprehensive listing of programming links.





.

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2000\09\03@121852 by hgraf

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> I don't know, but do you really want to get a programmer that
> only does some
> of the chips?  I recommend you just get the PicstartPlus.  It's not
> expensive and it covers the whole product line.  Since it's supported by
> Microchip, upgrades will be available as new chips are released.
>
> Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no
> point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble
> on the web.
> By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it
> will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus.  And then you'll still have
> to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the
> chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

    How much is the PicstartPlus??? I built my programmer for less than $5
CND (socket, few resistors, couple regulators and the PCB), I don't see ANY
commercial programmer get ANYWHERE near that price. Granted my programmer
only does the 16x84, but that's all I've needed so far. Plus, on top of
price, building your own programmer is a GREAT way to practice debugging.
PIC projects rarely end up without a bug or two, learning to debug even
before a PIC is involved is a great learning experience. As an example:

I am an EE student going into my third year. We often have labs to help us
learn about all the theory we are learning. For almost every lab I got my
circuit working first, why? Because I have been doodling with circuits for a
long time now and debugging is second nature to me. Heck, I helped students
with their circuits because all the TAs were so busy. I'm not bragging, my
fellow students are very intelligent (they have to be). But without real
experience theory can only go so far (that's why we have labs!).

If one is into PICing to make money then I agree with you, buying a
programmer is the only way to go. However for the hobbiest I recommend that
you build at least your first programmer. Just my opinion. TTYL

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2000\09\03@125840 by xandinho

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>>                               For some reason people seem to have an
>> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.
>The proper euphemism is: Hobbiest.

       Or avaiability! I live in Brazil and you can't find Picstart here at an reasonable price (+$200, believe it or not). So I got the NoPPP schematic, built it in less than an hour, had all the parts in my parts bin and it works flawlessly. And it solved my problem. with The NoPPP95 program, it got just better!

       Sometimes you need a cheap programmer.


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       All the best!!!
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2000\09\03@142335 by Dale Botkin

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On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> > 1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program either
> > 16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the chip
> > are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that
> it
> > can program a 16c84 but says nothing on 16f84, can i actually used it for
> > 16f84? ( and vice versa?)
>
> I don't know, but do you really want to get a programmer that only does some
> of the chips?  I recommend you just get the PicstartPlus.  It's not
> expensive and it covers the whole product line.  Since it's supported by
> Microchip, upgrades will be available as new chips are released.
>
> Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no
> point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble on the web.
> By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it
> will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus.  And then you'll still have
> to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the
> chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Olin, that may be true for people doing commercial, income-producing work
with PICs.  For those not doing commercial work, though, or for those just
getting started on "sideline" business projects, there are very valid uses
for the free designs.  Most can be built from junk box parts or a $5 trip
to Radio Shack and a couple of hours bench time.

I don't own a Picstart Plus, it was too expensive for what I was doing.
I bought an EPIC+ for about a third of the cost, which included the
software and will program any PIC from the 12, 14, 16, or 18x families.
Support has been excellent (including new device support), and it does
everything I need it to do. For $69 it was a lot better deal $199 for the
PS+ for anything less than commercial production use, where the voltage
margining *might* make the PS+ worthwhile.

So the EPIC was worth the $70 to me.  If I'd been planning just some hobby
projects (and had more time to play around), I'd have built a similar
Tait-design or even simpler programmer, since I had the parts.  I did look
at several nearly identical designs, and I can tell you the only way any
of them would have cost me as much as a PS+ would be if I was burning
expensive hourly consulting time building one.  Buying parts?  Olin, have
you even looked at the free designs?  I don't think a few passive parts
(diodes, a couple of resistors) and even a 74LS05 would break the bank,
and you can program just about any PIC with very little hardware.  As for
construction and debugging, I think my 12 year old could ot it on the
first try.  It isn't rocket science.

Penny-wise and pound foolish isn't nearly as distasteful as elitist and
dismissive.  One usually learns from the first; the other tends to inhibit
learning. I'd venture to say there is a large number of PIClist
subscribers who use programmers other than the PS+, are quite happy with
them, and have saved money doing so.  I know I'm one.

Dale
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2000\09\03@155659 by Bob Blick

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On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Olin Lathrop wrote:
---many lines clipped---
> chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.
----
Uh-oh, I know you are trolling and yet I reply. hmm.

It's a big world out there, Olin. There are many reasons to build your own
programmer. Although it's often a money issue, even some rich Americans
like myself like to build their own(I also have a Picstart+). For some
it's a moral issue - they won't run Windows. Kudos to those brave souls
(I'm a dual-boot guy). I'm sure there will be others posting to the list
to help enlighten you to the other reasons why it's a good idea for them
to do things for reasons you never thought of.

In answer to the original poster's question:
The 16F84 and 16C84 are interchangeable as far as the device programmer is
concerned, and the only difference in the driver software invloves the
protect bits, but if you don't set the protect bits you don't need to
change the settings. Note the 16F84 has more ram, but the device
programmer doesn't see that.

Cheers,

Bob

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2000\09\03@185634 by Mark Willis

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Some others on this list will probably disagree with this, but I see no
> point in these "free" do it yourself programmer designs availble on the web.
> By the time you order the parts, pay for them, build it, and debug it, it
> will have cost a lot more than a PicstartPlus.  And then you'll still have
> to worry about whether it will do the chip for your next project, or the
> chip coming out next quarter.  For some reason people seem to have an
> amazing capacity to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

There's a lot to be said for the Newfound Warp-13, if you just use 16xxx
parts.  Half price is good...  I don't agree on your pricing estimate on
the DIY programmers, I can buy a kit locally with PCB and all then
register the shareware for about $55 total;  (At the least, if you buy a
PicStart Plus, get it at a seminar for a "mere" $150 USD, not $200.)
And if you make your own DIY Programmer from parts, it's less than that.

Personally, I'm sorta disgusted with the philosophy of some device
programmer manufacturers;  I have quite a few, have a LOT of money
invested in them, and it always seems like I could spend another $1000+
on more, better newer device programmers, more adapters for them, more
device selector cards, etc. - Each always seems to take MORE RAM and
more CPU power to do the same job internally, due to requiring a newer
Windoze OS to run at all, and and and...  Repeatedly have to download
huge, different interface software for each, and you have to go buy the
latest greatest OpSys, to program your cheap PIC controllers or your
EPRoms or whatever?

Seems like there's a better way, but we seem to not have time free for
open source designs here.

Especially with some of the device makers leaning towards high priced
subscriptionware for the pre-processor software for DSP's, FPGA's, and
so on.  Grrr!  That's a killer, from where I sit.  They're telling me,
"Look for another chip maker."

If you have to own multiple device programmers for multiple differing
devices, prepare to spend LOTS of money, and carry a lot of hardware.  I
would far prefer to have spent "a mere $2000" or so for ONE device
programmer with good support that would hook on via serial or parallel
to any terminal or laptop that happens to be handy, and which comes with
a full set of any adapters / adapter cards / etc. needed, than have
spent many times that and have THIS many different device programmers
requiring different pricey OS upgrades's, different interfaces, repeated
downloads of new firmware and interface programs, and still always need
more programmers for other devices.  Frustrating!  Seems for the small
shop, someone's always finding new novel ways to spend my money - so
they don't have to think.

If you need serial port programmability off Dos, off batteries, in the
field - prepare to make your own programmer.  If you need anything they
didn't think of in advance, expect to spend more <G>

Bluntly:  In the PicStart Plus, Microchip made what was convenient for
them - not what'd be handy for MY needs...  Might be handy for most, I'm
frustrated though.  Other companies are far worse here, at least
MicroChip's firmware upgrade files are free for download, not 1/2 the
price of a new PicStart Plus!  (Sold one device programmer that tried
that on me.)  I'm annoyed at Parallax for dropping their parallel port
programmer entirely.  Grrr.  Like the Needham's EMP-10 and -20 mostly,
but the -20's device signal routing cards are too dang pricey (Should be
$30 for the whole set instead of "buy them as you need them" current
prices...

With processor power so cheap, cache RAM so cheap, and OTP parts so
expensive, seems that it'd be better for us developers if the makers
made any device programmer, hook to the host CPU through the users'
choice of Serial or parallel port;  cache the data to be programmed into
the PIC chip or other device, internally, then burn the part once it's
checked the checksums on the data passed to the programmer. (Anyone else
had 17Cxx and 16Cxx OTP parts fail during programming, due to a serial
connection problem with a PicStart Plus?  They could at least have the
programming fail safely, but that's not been my experience.  Or they
could test the serial link on startup and have bad connections reported
so you don't lose OTP parts and TIME - Haven't experienced that either.
It's a pain to lose a Windowed part in front of a client, at least I can
erase and re-use the part.  Not so with OTP parts.)

If I could drive the thing from ANY laptop or desktop I owned, I'd be
lots happier...  Not advocating hand-typing in an S19 file, I'd love to
see a smarter programmer though that'll deal with serial or parallel
input and have open source drivers etc. <G>  Lot of work to make one, of
course...

<Rant mode off>

 Mark

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2000\09\03@193323 by xandinho

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>If you have to own multiple device programmers for multiple differing
>devices, prepare to spend LOTS of money, and carry a lot of hardware.  I
>would far prefer to have spent "a mere $2000" or so for ONE device
>programmer with good support that would hook on via serial or parallel
>to any terminal or laptop that happens to be handy, and which comes with
>a full set of any adapters / adapter cards / etc. needed, than have

       Well, the Hi-Lo systems (also called as "tribal") programmers does just that! They program almost everything you can think of, and costs less than Us$ 800 I think. You buy one and use it all your lifetime. I hope I can get money to buy one of them.


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2000\09\04@095228 by Vaggelis

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On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, pang khong lin wrote:

> I am new to PIC and are slightly overwhelm by all the information
> available.At the moment my priority is on quickly be able program my PIN
> 16f84 and get familiar with the programming. Questions that i need help on :
> -
>
> 1. There are some programmer(hardware) that say that it can program either
> 16c84 and 16f84 or even both. So can i safely assume that both of the chip
> are the same? meaning if i found a very simple programmer that says that it
> can program a 16c84 but says nothing on 16f84, can i actually used it for
> 16f84? ( and vice versa?)


Try NOPPP it's easy to make and costs nothing (it programs both f84 and
c84)
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/noppp/

> 2. if it is not, what is the difference?

F84 is a newer chip and uses flash technology
C84 is an EEPROM one
this is the main difference...

Vaggelis Tripolitakis
Undergraduate Student
Microprocessor and Hardware Lab
Technical University of Crete
Greece

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