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'[PIC]:USB PIC Programmer'
2001\10\06@012841 by XChet

picon face
As the serial ports and parallel ports become leagacy
devices they have been removed from the new
motherboards. Intel and Microsoft have taken this
decision to remove ISA bus, serial ports, printer port
and several other legacy devices from their
motherboards designs.

Is anyone interested in designing a PIC programmer
using USB? I have done some research and came up with
some ideas.

Thanks.

=====
Thanks,

XChet

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2001\10\06@015233 by Anthony Bussan

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USB seems reasonable, but how about just supplying a PCMCIA port.  Then you
could have your choice of serial, network, USB, firewire, or even wireless
LAN?

Is there a way to redirect current PIC software that only looks for serial
ports to some other type of connection without rewriting the software?
Maybe a custom device driver to create a virtual com port to any type of
connection?

Tony

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\06@020514 by M. Adam Davis

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I've thought about it, but the problem I've found is that the slow speed
USB (available with PICs and other 8-bit USB micros) is actually
/slower/ than serial (which can go to 115.2k).

I've therefore determined that it is better for now to just use a usb
<--> serial converter ($30 or less) with a normal pic programmer (which
will then still be compatible with  current software).  You can obtain
chips which do this conversion as well for very little, and embed it in
the programmer.  Then it would be advantageous to expose both interfaces
and let the consumer choose, all the while making things much simpler
for you.

Were one to persue a USB programmer, then one would probably want the
programmer to store the program, so the software only has to transmit
changes in code (and they would use a checksum to verify that the code
is the same after the changes are made).  The first programming of a
device would take twice as long as a normal serial programmer, but the
rest could take 1/4 the time, since most pic devices can be programmed
in much less time than it takes to transmit the program over serial.

Until USB microcontrollers become fast and common enough at the higher
speed, it may not pay off to have a usb programmer, unless all it
consists of is a usb-serial converter chip inside the programmer...

-Adam

XChet wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\06@074557 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Bussan" <spam_OUTTBUSSATakeThisOuTspamWOODWARD.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:USB PIC Programmer


> USB seems reasonable, but how about just supplying a PCMCIA port.  Then
you
> could have your choice of serial, network, USB, firewire, or even wireless
> LAN?

A PCMCIA port on the device would be a bit of overkill.

> Is there a way to redirect current PIC software that only looks for serial
> ports to some other type of connection without rewriting the software?
> Maybe a custom device driver to create a virtual com port to any type of
> connection?

Yes, in fact such products are commercially available. I have a USB to
serial converter that works with programs that use the Windows Comms API.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2001\10\06@112410 by cardcd

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Hi,

Did I get teleported to Mars?

1) the early premise in this thread is faulty.
The 1999 Bus standard decision was overt and did decree the elimination of
several notable interfaces (COM, LPT, ISA, & VDE).
It was widely publicized.
So, it should _not_ be a shock that a USB interface is the apparent
successor, that was the intent.

2) A true USB (version one) is designed to operate at up to 10 mbps
(certainly _not_ slower than the old serial ports on some PC's.
The newer one is even faster.
That does not mean USB must run that fast as many devices out there prove.
It does mean the implementer of a slower device in that mix must be a lot
more savvy than we, in this niche, tend to be.
It is one thing to be the sole passenger on a bus and entirely another to be
a well behaved member of the crowd being transported.
The USB is intended to be a PC managed multiplex stream.

3) Logically, the speed across the interface is _not_ at issue.
The "device" sitting outboard of the PC simply must buffer correctly to
manage the programming chore and the transfer.
The niche in which we function do all our chip programming at 9600 or
slower, so what?
If, however, the USB speed is too slow for you, do a Firewire!

Whether we like it or not, they do not build PC's for guys like us.
Actually, I am thankful for that.
The market ambitions of the suppliers are met with the newer "do not open
the box" interfaces.

So, what is the problem here?
It appears that we can not communicate among ourselves.

Adam has made a determination and he is happy with it.
How does that answer Chet's question?
Chet did _not_ ask if anybody was _not_ interested.
I would think he asked if anyone wanted to collaborate.
=============
Chuck Card in sunny Arizona
Unlimited Sunsets
<snip>

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2001\10\06@113449 by cardcd

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Hi,

More Martian talk?

PCMCIA was an interesting idea as an interface for portable computers.
Like all the others, the manufacturers messed it up and now there are others
competing.

So it would be nice to have a programmer into which we plug a PCMCIA card?
Do you think the driver code for all those interfaces simply appear out of
nothingness?

Bob A. is quite correct about overkill!
It is both technically unwise, but economically unmanageable.
Or should MicroChip do it and quadruple the price of PICs?
===========
Chuck Card in sunny Arizona
Unlimited Sunsets
<snip>

--

> USB seems reasonable, but how about just supplying a PCMCIA port.  Then
you
> could have your choice of serial, network, USB, firewire, or even wireless
> LAN?

A PCMCIA port on the device would be a bit of overkill.

<snip>

Yes, in fact such products are commercially available. I have a USB to
serial converter that works with programs that use the Windows Comms API.

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2001\10\06@140926 by Randy Glenn

picon face
Actually, I think the idea was to have the PCMCIA card slot on the
programmer, and use THAT for interfacing with a PC.

Problem is, a USB host controller is a different beast from a USB device,
and PCMCIA USB cards are hosts. Hooking up host-to-host would at the least
cause the bus to stop working, methinks - and at the most, possibly cause
some damage (like I'd know though - just a guess on my part).

Also, does anyone want to write drivers for all of these cards? Anyone?

Like many people, I'd be interested in a USB programmer and possibly ICD,
simply because my notebook comes sans RS232. Mac support might also be kind
of interesting to look into. That said, I probably wouldn't pay much money
for it.

-Randy Glenn

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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\06@143516 by Marc Reinig

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I'll volunteer my time for a USB interface.  I'm familiar with the
PIC16C765/45 (capable of matching the speed of a 9600 baud serial line) and
other devices.  The PIC devices are low speed.  If you use a full-speed
device you can get speeds up to 1Mbyte.  High speed can go even higher.

In general, you would want to avoid using a custom driver.

Marc Reinig
System Solutions

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2001\10\06@154117 by Brandon Fosdick

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XChet wrote:
> Is anyone interested in designing a PIC programmer
> using USB? I have done some research and came up with
> some ideas.

Have you thought about adapting an existing programmer? I think Tony
Nixon's Pocket would be a good choice. It already has the storage
capability that somebody else mentioned.

Either way, is it possible to make the programmer like like a USB mass
storage device? If you expose the pic (and/or programmer storage space)
as a file or directory on the host machine you don't need special
software, you just copy the hex file to the appropriate place. This
would also make it cross-platform since Mac, Linux, and BSD all support
umass devices.

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2001\10\06@154952 by Chetan Bhargava

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That would be great. PICs may be slow but Cypress has Low Speed, Full Speed
and High Speed USB processors. They have a M8 core :( (another asm code to
work with) and also I didn't see any flash or cerdip (UV-Erasable) devices.

I have created a group on yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/usbpicprog/
anyone interested can join the group.

Thanks.
{Original Message removed}

2001\10\06@214152 by Marc Reinig

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face
> Either way, is it possible to make the programmer like like a USB mass
> storage device? If you expose the pic (and/or programmer storage space)
> as a file or directory on the host machine you don't need special
> software, you just copy the hex file to the appropriate place. This
> would also make it cross-platform since Mac, Linux, and BSD all support
> umass devices.
Actually, WinME and Win2K are the first MS OS's that included native mass
storage support.  Win98 didn't.  Also, mass storage is fine for moving file
type data back and forth, but not as good at interacting with the device:
there is no mass storage command to "program the disk, now!" ;=)

An interface that _is_ universally supported is HID.  No custom drivers are
required and you can support speeds of 9600 baud on low speed and 760,000
baud on full speed.

Marc Reinig
System Solutions

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2001\10\06@221805 by Marc Reinig

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> That would be great. PICs may be slow but Cypress has Low Speed, Full
Speed
> and High Speed USB processors. They have a M8 core :( (another asm code to
> work with) and also I didn't see any flash or cerdip (UV-Erasable)
devices.

I've got several tubes of the M8 version products in windowed packages from
several years ago, but perhaps they don't make them any more.  I think the
process technology today is EE.  But I notice the products say OTP, so I
guess the EE is at the wafer level or for factory test only.  Sounds
strange, but probably true.

Cypress also has an 8051 based product line, "EZ USB", (they bought Anchor
Chips).  These use internal RAM for program store.  This can be loaded at
boot from an eprom, serial eeprom, or after boot by the host.

Marc Reinig
System Solutions

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2001\10\07@193950 by Tony Nixon

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picon face
XChet wrote:
>
> As the serial ports and parallel ports become leagacy
> devices they have been removed from the new
> motherboards. Intel and Microsoft have taken this
> decision to remove ISA bus, serial ports, printer port
> and several other legacy devices from their
> motherboards designs.
>
> Is anyone interested in designing a PIC programmer
> using USB? I have done some research and came up with
> some ideas.

I've been trying to come up with a USB interface, but not much luck yet.

I don't think transfer speed is an issue, because you can only program
the PIC's or any other device at a speed that they are comfortable with.
19200 baud is plenty fast enough, especially with the flash types.




--
Best regards

Tony

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2001\10\08@010851 by XChet

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I fully agree, that is why I was considering low speed
USB devices (1 MB/sec). They are easy to manage and
less complex in interfacing.

I think that first we should come up with a low speed
design and then improve it further.

Thanks.
--- Tony Nixon <@spam@Tony.NixonKILLspamspamENG.MONASH.EDU.AU> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\08@012347 by Randy Glenn

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What do you mean when you say "low speed"? Low speed, USB-1.1 (i.e. about
1.2 Megabits (Mb) per second), or Low speed, as in USB-1.1 in comparison to
USB-2 (i.e. either implementation of USB-1.1, so up to 12 Mb/s)

-Randy Glenn

Measure twice, cut once, curse, discard.
Repeat.=================================================
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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\08@042957 by XChet

picon face
I mean USB 1.1


--- Randy Glenn <TakeThisOuTPICxpertEraseMEspamspam_OUTHOME.COM> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

=====
Thanks,

XChet

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2001\10\08@093923 by Bob Ammerman

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USB 1.1 has two speeds:

Low speed - 1.5 MBit per second

Full speed - 12MBit per second

USB 2.0 supports both of them and adds:

High Speed - 400MBit (?) per second

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\08@101529 by Heinrich Raman

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Hi

I'm an Electronics Technician at The National Accelerator Centre in Cape
Town,South Africa.
Our company have bought some of the above PICs and I would like to improve
my skills on USB.

Is it possible that I can program the above PIC to interface with an USB
device..How do one go about?

If it is possible ,than I would appreciate it if you can sent my some
information on sample codes or maybe some usefull
url.

Thanks in advance
Heinrich Raman

By compassion we make others' misery our own, and so, by relieving them, we
relieve ourselves also.

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\08@105729 by Giles Honeycutt

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I can volunteer some PCB layout time.
I don't care to learn USB interfacing at this time, but would like to have a
USB programmer, as my last laptop came without a RS-232 port.
I don't ready all of this list all the time, so please contact me via
 giles @ amtech-eng.com
Best regards,
Giles



{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\08@113922 by Brandon Fosdick

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Marc Reinig wrote:
> Actually, WinME and Win2K are the first MS OS's that included native mass
> storage support.  Win98 didn't.  Also, mass storage is fine for moving file
> type data back and forth, but not as good at interacting with the device:
> there is no mass storage command to "program the disk, now!" ;=)

You wouldn't need it. Have the programmer side umass driver expose the
programming function as a particular path. Then copying to that path
location would trigger a program operation using the data in the copied
file. Similarly, copying from that location would read the contents of
the chip. Copying from a file stored on the programmer to the
programming path would obviously start the program operation as well.

IIRC, there's a service patch for win98 that addresses the lack of
drivers. Although its been a while since I used win98 so I could easily
be wrong.

> An interface that _is_ universally supported is HID.  No custom drivers are
> required and you can support speeds of 9600 baud on low speed and 760,000
> baud on full speed.

HID would be good if you weren't concerned with storing files on the
programmer. Even if most programmers don't have that feature it would be
nice to design for it since there are some programmers that do and
having a common interface is always nice.

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2001\10\08@114339 by Arnold Chord

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Does Michrochip currently sell a chip with a USB port? The 18 series does
not seem to be in production yet. I would like to be able to get the data
transfer of the USB on a chop like the 877.

Thanks
Arnold

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2001\10\08@134057 by Marc Reinig

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> > Actually, WinME and Win2K are the first MS OS's that included native
mass
> > storage support.  Win98 didn't.  Also, mass storage is fine for moving
file
> > type data back and forth, but not as good at interacting with the
device:
{Quote hidden}

In my experience, patches that are not actual full service packs cause more
problems than is worth it for general use.  There is Win98 Gold (the
original release and Win98SE (second edition) both of these are full
releases of the OS.  It is easy to tell which you have.  It is not easy to
tell if you have a patch or if the patch is correctly installed.

> > An interface that _is_ universally supported is HID.  No custom drivers
are
> > required and you can support speeds of 9600 baud on low speed and
760,000
> > baud on full speed.

> HID would be good if you weren't concerned with storing files on the
> programmer. Even if most programmers don't have that feature it would be
> nice to design for it since there are some programmers that do and
> having a common interface is always nice.

So, we need to decide if we are going to store files on the programmer.  For
a PIC USB device, a 4KB file would transfer in about 5 seconds.  What is the
largest file we would transfer and what is the longest time that would be
reasonable to wait for such a transfer?

Is there a common interface for PIC programmers?

I guess the decision also needs to be made whether this is to be a USB
interface for all possible programmers or a specific programmer and whether
the desire is to use a PIC for the USB interface or to use a full speed
device.

Marc Reinig
System Solutions

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2001\10\08@142817 by Olin Lathrop

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> I can volunteer some PCB layout time.
> I don't care to learn USB interfacing at this time, but would like to have
a
> USB programmer, as my last laptop came without a RS-232 port.

Why not just get an off the shelf USB serial port?


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, olinSTOPspamspamspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\10\08@144025 by XChet

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Objective is to *learn* :-)



>Why not just get an off the shelf USB serial port?



=====
Thanks,

XChet

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2001\10\08@160119 by Giles Honeycutt

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> > I can volunteer some PCB layout time.
> > I don't care to learn USB interfacing at this time, but would like to
>have
>a
> > USB programmer, as my last laptop came without a RS-232 port.
>
>Why not just get an off the shelf USB serial port?
>

That would be the easy way!
Well actually I would like to work with a programmer design that I might
integrate into my future projects.  My time is offered as a stepping stone
to get me involved in developing a programmer.  If their is no project, and
nobody with a need, I would not have the motivation to do it.
Besides, if I integrated one of the existing programmers I see all over the
place, such as David Taits LPT or the defunct serial ITU design or ... they
all deal with Serial or LPT, and if I want a product for the future, I
should be looking at what we will need.

Best Regards,
Giles



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