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'[PIC]:Need help badly'
2004\11\25@145028 by L. Barta

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face
Hello,

I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some problems. I'm using
PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a Warp 13
programmer, and a Serial LCD display in my project which works but not like
I'd like it to!
Here is my code:

'Ultrasonic Range Finder

Symbol TRISB = 134
Symbol PortB = 6
Poke TRISB,8
Loop:
SerOut 2, T2400, (12)    'Send out Clear Screen
Low 0        'Make sure Initiate is low
Pause 10       'Wait 10 MS
High 0            'Now Initiate Range Finder
PulsIn 3, 0, W3      'Receive "Echo", put data in W3
Pause 150       'Wait .15 second
Low 0        'Bring initiate low
LET W2 = W3 * 10     'W3 times 10 equals W2
IF W2 = 0 Then Loop     'If no data in W2, go to loop
LET W0 = W2 / 178     'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0
Pause 10       'Wait a bit
SerOut 2, T2400, (12,2,#W0)   'Send what's in W0 out to display******I've
also tried this (12,1,2,#B0,46,#B1)

Pause 800       'Wait .8 second
GoTo Loop       'Do it all again
End

What I'd like this Ultrasonic Range Finder to do is to display in large
numbers, the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. All I've been
able to get it to display is the feet and tenths of a foot like this, 79,
where the 7 is feet, and 9 is the tenths of a foot. I'd like to have a
decimal point between the feet and tenths of a foot on the LCD display. The
maximum range should be about 26'.

I've tried manipulation of B0 and B1, but really don't understand enough
about this to have been, or to be successful.

Any assistance any of you could be with this project, will be greatly
appreciated!

Thanks.
L. Barta



____________________________________________

2004\11\25@150227 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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L. Barta wrote :

> Hello,
>
> I'm pretty new to PIC programming and I'm having some
> problems. I'm using  PicBasic, CodeDesigner Lite, a
> Warp 13 programmer,...

I know nothing about anyone of those, but just a few
notes...

{Quote hidden}

What is the data type of each variable ?
8-bit int ?
16-bit int ?
Or maybe ome kind of "float" ?
Does they have some default fdta type ?
That is, you don't have to declare them ?

/Jan-Erik.

>

____________________________________________

2004\11\25@153243 by David P Harris

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Hi-

This question would be best put to a newsgroup concerning PicBasic.

After perusing the web, I think you will have to split up W0 into the
two parts.  B0 and B1 are not what you want, as these (I think) are the
two halves of W0 as bytes or B0=W0/256 and B1=W0 mod 256.

You want the feed W0 out as its Whole-Part, a period, and its
Fractional-Part, so define two more variables (the names will need to be
appropriately chosen):

B4 = W0/10  <-- the whole part of the result
W1 = B4*10
B5 = W0-W1 <-- the fractional part of the result

Now you need to send out  #B4, a ".", and #B5 - you might need multiple
SEROUTs for this bit.

If B5 ends up being displayed as, say,  "02" instead of "2" (ie with a
leading zero)  then you could try:

B5=B5*10, so you would get "20" displayed instead,

or if you can't live with the extra 0:
B5="0"+B5 , which gets you the ASCII code for that digit into B5, and
you would display with B5 (no #).

Please note the above is based on this page:
http://www.rentron.com/PicBasic-LCD.htm and some long ago hacking with
Basic for PICs, so beware!

David


L. Barta wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\25@154002 by Justin Fielding

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I'm sorry but that's crazy.  Why on earth are you showing tenths of a
foot?  Either use meters, in which case you can use tenths (as meters
are base10)/  If you want to use feet, then I would think that you
should show inches as the smaller unit (1/12).  You can use the correct
indicators also.  ' indicates feet, " indicates inches.

Sorry I can't help you with the code, I have never touched PicBasic.  It
looks pretty mixed up, maybe you should learn C or ASM instead, there
would certainly be more help available if you did.

L. Barta wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\25@160137 by Roy E. Burrage

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Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet.  Admittedly, they are
probably a little crazy in their own right but why not follow their
convention?  How is that crazy?

Just a hypothetical question.

REB

Justin Fielding wrote:

{Quote hidden}


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____________________________________________

2004\11\25@164948 by Justin Fielding

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lol, it's kind of a contradiction in terms, decimal feet.  I wonder why
the UK didn't think of that when the EU made them go decimal...

Why would Surveyors and geographers not just use m/cm/mm?

Roy E. Burrage wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>_____________________________________________

2004\11\25@171704 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
> lol, it's kind of a contradiction in terms, decimal feet.  I
> wonder why the UK didn't think of that when the EU
> made them go decimal...

They did not  "go decimal", they went "metric". And I don't think
it was the EU that made them do that, the UK'ers are pretty clever
by themselfs...

Jan-Erik.
____________________________________________

2004\11\26@042933 by Justin Fielding

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Really?  The currency used to be in fractions, not decimal.  E.g. £1 - 1/5 instead of £1.20...  I assumed the change came in with the EU being formed, it was some time in the 60's I think (Im' too young to actually remember it).

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>____________________________________________

2004\11\26@044947 by Peter Moreton

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Hmm... £1.20 would not be expressed as one and a fifth pounds at all. 5
(new) pence is one old shilling, so £1.20 was one pound and four shillings.
Or One Pound and 2 florins. Or One Gunea and 3 shillings. I guess it's
obvious why we decimalised!

BTW, the conversion from Pounds, shillings and pence was called
'Decimalisation' and the conversion from Stones, Pounds, Oz (weight) etc to
Kg etc is called 'metrication'. Metrication is still ongoing in the UK, and
as a result I buy most food in Kg & Litres, except milk which is still sold
in Pints, and beer also pints. Road mileage is still shown in Miles not Km.

Peter Moreton


{Original Message removed}

2004\11\26@074332 by Justin Fielding

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:) Thanks, I never did quite understand all of that old style money.

I think it's a good thing that we have kept miles, I don't know why, I
prefer them.  I'm living in Turkey at the moment and I just don't like
KM (not to mention driving on the wrong side of the road and having the
gear stick on the wrong side) :)  I must say that I find when doing any
engineering work, mm seem to be the easiest to work with accuratly.  I
still like to use inches and feet when working with aircraft however.

I thought they had stopped selling milk in pints now.  I know the size
is still a pint, but don't they actually have to put the volume in ml/l
on the carton/bottle?

Justin.

Peter Moreton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2004\11\26@075145 by Rolf

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Seems like pots are calling kettles black...

What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a bread-board recently?

Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking in decimalised imperial units. ;-)

Rolf


Peter Moreton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2004\11\26@081716 by Peter Moreton

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> I thought they had stopped selling milk in pints now.  I know the size is
still a pint, but don't they
> actually have to put the volume in ml/l on the carton/bottle?

Yes, they sell imperial amounts of milk marked as Litres. So, a 2 pint
carton is marked '1.38 L'. Absolute Madness.

____________________________________________

2004\11\26@084700 by Kev Pearce \(kevp.com\)

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> Yes, they sell imperial amounts of milk marked as Litres. So, a 2 pint
> carton is marked '1.38 L'. Absolute Madness.

And if you go to a builders merchants they sell 4"x2" (aka 4B2) timber in 4
metre lengths!!!

Kev/.



____________________________________________

2004\11\26@114753 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Roy E. Burrage wrote:

> Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet.  Admittedly, they are probably a
> little crazy in their own right but why not follow their convention?  How is
> that crazy?

Not so crazy, they tried to go metric but stopped midway in the change ?
;-)

Peter
____________________________________________

2004\11\26@121453 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote:

> Seems like pots are calling kettles black...
>
> What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All PCB's
> are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a bread-board
> recently?
>
> Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking in
> decimalised imperial units. ;-)

Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which
are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion
problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain
long connectors.

Peter
____________________________________________

2004\11\26@122435 by Dave VanHorn

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At 12:15 PM 11/26/2004, Peter L. Peres wrote:


>On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Rolf wrote:
>
>>Seems like pots are calling kettles black...
>>
>>What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All
>>PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a
>>bread-board recently?
>>
>>Seems to me that the people in this list should have no problem thinking
>>in decimalised imperial units. ;-)
>
>Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which
>are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion
>problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain
>long connectors.

Rounding errors aside, fractional or decimal partials have nothing to do
with wether the main units are imperial or metric.

1.95 hogshead, or 2.3 furlongs makes just as much sense as 2/3 Meter or 1/4
gram.
It's just that you are used to seeing it the other way more often.


____________________________________________

2004\11\26@130643 by Justin Fielding

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Those crazy communists huh  :-D

Justin.

Peter L. Peres wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\26@133051 by Justin Fielding

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Rolf wrote:

> Seems like pots are calling kettles black...
>
> What is the pin spacing on pretty much all TH components .... 0.1" All
> PCB's are measured in decimals of inches. 10 pins per inch.... used a
> bread-board recently?

No, I really don't do breadboards, hate them.

{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2004\11\26@144212 by madscientist

picon face
and in the u.s., we call them 2X4's, but of course they are actually
smaller, and are smaller than they used to be (all i can guess is the
timber industry decided to pull a fast one to increase yield per tree,
sort of like making containers smaller and charging the same price in
other industries).

i have no problem with something being marked with information in
multiple measurement systems, that's not odd at all and is probably
often done to aid export (though i know some countries insist on using
things like deciliters and other non-engineering prefixes on units,
which i consider bad form).

now a 2X4, or 4X2 in metric lengths is odd in the extreme.  though the
"penny" size of nails is probably the most annoying unit of measure to
me, other than the persistence of angstroms instead of manometers and
some other bastardizations of engineering prefixes.  personally, i
really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they did
consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe, but as always
it would mean teaching people something new, never mind that it's a lot
easier to understand and that in a few decades no one would need to know
those truly ugly measurement units, like acre-feet used to measure
irrigation water.

"Kev Pearce (kevp.com)" wrote:
-------
> And if you go to a builders merchants they sell 4"x2" (aka 4B2) timber in 4
> metre lengths!!!
======

-- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question:
is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience
asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must
take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one
must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr.
1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html>

___________________________________________

2004\11\26@145958 by madscientist

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the degrees, minutes, seconds, and decimal seconds notation is
definitely very, very annoying and awkward.  however i suspect that
those familiar with it found radian based units rather annoying.  i must
admit that the need to use many decimal places to represent what are
whole numbers in the degree based system is a bit annoying.  360 degrees
is much simpler than 2pi, or the numerical representation of 2pi, or
0.25pi converted to a decimal expression.  it is a lot more buttons to
push on a calculator etc. to maintain resolution even when dealing with
otherwise easy to express angles, unless people leave it as a fraction
or decimal multiplied by pi which just seems wrong since it's not purely
numeric and drags a symbolic constant along with it in addition to the
unit of measure.  it's definitely much harder to do the math in your
head, at least most of the time.

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Roy E. Burrage wrote:
>
> > Surveyors and geographers use decimal feet.  Admittedly, they are probably a
> > little crazy in their own right but why not follow their convention?  How is
> > that crazy?
>
> Not so crazy, they tried to go metric but stopped midway in the change ?
--------

-- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question:
is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience
asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must
take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one
must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr.
1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html>

___________________________________________

2004\11\26@152736 by madscientist

picon face
and their are also those maddening "DB" connectors which are something
like 0.109" spacing.  so annoying that amp actually made a line of such
connectors that did have the pins spaced 0.1" apart, though this was
before the advent of good cad tools for circuit boards when many or most
were drawn manually on paper.

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
------
> Except if you are using certain parts from mainland China or ex-USSR which
> are both metric. East Block large (>40 pin) chips used to have insertion
> problems into boards laid out for the imperial system. Same for certain
> long connectors.
-----

-- “Cowardice asks the question: is it safe? Expediency asks the question:
is it politic? Vanity asks the question: is it popular? But conscience
asks the question: is it right? And there comes a time when one must
take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular- but one
must take it simply because it is right.” : Martin Luther King Jr.
1929-1968 <http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4614717,00.html>

___________________________________________

2004\11\26@154304 by Justin Fielding

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God, radians...  I almost forgot that radians existed, I have not used
them since I finished physics/maths at college.  All I can say is thank
you Texas Instruments for some truely great scientific calculators.

This thread has really got BIG huh.  I'm surprised some of the purists
have not moaned that it's off topic.

Justin.

the madscientist wrote:

{Quote hidden}

____________________________________________

2004\11\26@180319 by olin_piclist

face picon face
> and in the u.s., we call them 2X4's, but of course they are actually
> smaller, and are smaller than they used to be (all i can guess is the
> timber industry decided to pull a fast one to increase yield per tree,
> sort of like making containers smaller and charging the same price in
> other industries).

2x4s are 2 inches by 4 inches rough cut.  These are dried, which causes them
to warp a bit.  An additional amount is then shaved off to make the result
flat and straight again.  The result is called "dimensional" lumber, and is
what is usually sold in consumer lumber stores.

I have a saw mill not too far from my house that sells rough cut lumber
directly.  This lumber really is the advertised size, and costs less than
dimensional lumber.  I use it whenever I can, although I have to deal with
warping on my end.  You don't get to have it both ways.

> personally, i
> really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they
> did consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe,

Metric grew out of the French revolution, which came after the US
revolution, so I don't think so.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\11\26@204151 by Bob Ammerman

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My opinion of angle measurements:

For normal day-to-day use: decimal degrees. I.e.: 15.45 degrees.

For mathematical, scientific use: radians

For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a
circle.

For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

____________________________________________

2004\11\26@214014 by madscientist

picon face


Olin Lathrop wrote:
------
> 2x4s are 2 inches by 4 inches rough cut.  These are dried, which causes them
> to warp a bit.  An additional amount is then shaved off to make the result
> flat and straight again.  The result is called "dimensional" lumber, and is
> what is usually sold in consumer lumber stores.
--------

yes, i knew that, but they are now finished to a smaller size than they
were before, me thinks they are being rough cut smaller.  i to have used
rough cut lumber, particularly for fences.  if i could get it here i
would, much of the "dimensional" lumber being sold lately has a warp
that's hard to deal with so it may as well be untrimmed, but then again
they aren't drying it as much as they traditionally did either so it
isn't fully stabilized when they trim it.  i've been to what is supposed
to be one of the better commercial saw mills that produces "premium"
2X4's ("straighter than most, mostly because of the trees used), i was
not impressed with any facet of the operation, they hardly seemed
capable of producing a superior product.  not that most employees didn't
work hard, it was clearly a management attitude problem.  it was
interesting none the less, particularly how all the scrap was simply
burned in a huge outdoor furnace, with no attempt to recover any of the
energy or control the emissions at all.  they probably could have gotten
enough heat for their steam plant that dried the wood from that furnace
with a little work, but then that would save money eventually.

> > personally, i
> > really wish the u.s. had gone metric/si a long, long time ago, they
> > did consider it when drafting the constitution etc. i believe,
>
> Metric grew out of the French revolution, which came after the US
> revolution, so I don't think so.

possibly, i had thought that franklin had fought for it.  i'm not sure
when the units first became available, but i don't doubt the french were
the first to adopt them officially.  i could certainly be wrong,
thinking about it the "source" that told me was not one of the most
honest people i've known, and had that b.s. disease that so many have.
in any case, i'd love to forget everything i ever learned about the
"english" or what bob veila and sears have the nerve to call "standard"
system...or empirical or whatever you want to call the hodge podge of
odd units we use.
--
Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real
motives and aims of heir Bush:
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm
<www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html>
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm
____________________________________________

2004\11\26@233311 by Jim Korman

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Bob Ammerman wrote:

> My opinion of angle measurements:
>
> For normal day-to-day use: decimal degrees. I.e.: 15.45 degrees.
>
> For mathematical, scientific use: radians
>
> For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a
> circle.
>
> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.
>
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>

Degrees, minutes, seconds were great for their time.

Circumference of the earth about 24,901 statue miles
or 21638.3774 nautical miles
   divide by 360 = 60.1066038 nautical miles
          by 60  = 1.00177673 nautical miles
          by 60  = 101.448513 feet

Within the accuracy of the instruments it was
   1 deg = 60 nm, 1 min = 1 nm and 1 sec = 100 feet

Jim


____________________________________________

2004\11\26@233610 by Dave VanHorn

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>>
>>For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a circle.

That's what I used when I had to work in polar coordinates.
I call them (and any unit created for the programmer's convenience) Dilberts.

____________________________________________

2004\11\27@001510 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Circumference of the earth about 24,901 statue miles
> or 21638.3774 nautical miles
>    divide by 360 = 60.1066038 nautical miles
>           by 60  = 1.00177673 nautical miles
>           by 60  = 101.448513 feet
>
> Within the accuracy of the instruments it was
>    1 deg = 60 nm, 1 min = 1 nm and 1 sec = 100 feet

Also.

360 degrees = 24 hours
15 degrees = 1 hour
1 degree = 4 minutes <- I can see some fun starting here :-)
1 minute = 4 seconds
1 second = 1/15 second

Confused yet :-) ?


       RM
____________________________________________

2004\11\27@004235 by Bob Ammerman

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave VanHorn" <spam_OUTdvanhornTakeThisOuTspamdvanhorn.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly


>
>>>
>>>For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a
>>>circle.
>
> That's what I used when I had to work in polar coordinates.
> I call them (and any unit created for the programmer's convenience)
> Dilberts.

I've called them bigrees.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

____________________________________________

2004\11\27@062955 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Dave VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Yes, it depends on the kind of corncob you have handy and on whether your
knife is not sharp enough to divide it into 10 equal parts, so you can
manage only 6. Or is it too sharp and you get to 12 parts. Most humans can
see 10 fingers on their two hands. So natural human numeration bases would
be 2, 5, 10, and 20 if counting the toes too. 2 and 10 are pretty common,
5 was used in some paper tape code I think, now, where does the Imperial
dozen come from ? 10+2 ? It is natural to use a fractional base that is a
multiple or submultiple of these numeration bases. Decimal simply means
the fractional base is 10 or a power threof. 10,5 is 10 5/10. The only
difference is the EASE OF USE.

Even construction/engineering did not require strange fractions, excepting
that base 7 would have been very useful (early approximation of pi = 22/7,
still good today for carpentry, landscaping, metal working, and other low
precision work). The difference between 22/7 and pi as shown on my
calculator is only 0.0012644893 (~0.04%!).

And about being used to, I have noticed that many Imperial measures do not
start or stop or step in any clearly correlated way (wrt units). For
example hat sizes increase in 1 3/4" increments from an arbitrary low
value to an arbitrary high value. This seems to indicate that the inches
came a long time after the craftsmen used some 'grandfathered' patterns
and at some point translated the patterns into inches. This seems to be
true for a number of Imperial units used (like wire gauge, rail gauge and

And back to metric parts, the metric parts had a pin spacing of 2.5mm
instead of 2.54mm. When trying to fit a 2.5mm spaced part in a 2.54mm laid
out board, at 40 pins dil, the error for the last pin in a row of 20 (each
side) is 0.8mm and is large enough that serious problems occur with manual
assembly.

Peter
____________________________________________

2004\11\27@063004 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, the madscientist wrote:

> the degrees, minutes, seconds, and decimal seconds notation is
> definitely very, very annoying and awkward.  however i suspect that
> those familiar with it found radian based units rather annoying.  i must

The radian is a mathematical thing. Nobody uses radians outside a lab or
computer program or EE calculations. The DMS notation is related to
navigation, and navigation and surveying were one and the same for a
couple of centuries, long before anybody reinvented the division of a
circle into 360 degrees, let alone knew what a minute was. Most
calculators have a DMS-DEG-RAD-GRAD conversion built in so it's not so
bad.

Peter
____________________________________________

2004\11\27@063554 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Bob Ammerman wrote:

> My opinion of angle measurements:
>
> For normal day-to-day use: decimal degrees. I.e.: 15.45 degrees.
>
> For mathematical, scientific use: radians
>
> For embedded system use: binary fractions of a circle. EG: 1/256 of a circle.
>
> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.

As in, reading your gps display ?

Peter


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2004\11\27@065759 by Justin Fielding

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SO completly off topic now, but I was just thinking.  If you intestines
are long enough to go round the earth, how fast does that piece of
sweetcorn which comes out the other end the next day have to travel!

Justin.

Jim Korman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\27@071125 by Russell McMahon

face
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> out board, at 40 pins dil, the error for the last pin in a row of 20 (each
> side) is 0.8mm

0.76mm :-)
(yeah, I know ...)


       RM


And of course, 0.8 = 0.76 within precision ranges implied in each case.

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2004\11\27@073808 by Russell McMahon

face
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> ... before anybody reinvented the division of a circle into 360 degrees,

Reinvented, yes.
As far as we know, the Babylonians started this.


       RM
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2004\11\27@092405 by olin_piclist

face picon face
the madscientist wrote:
> it was
> interesting none the less, particularly how all the scrap was simply
> burned in a huge outdoor furnace, with no attempt to recover any of
> the energy or control the emissions at all.

I am very surprised by this.  Where is this?

When I was a kid those sortof cone shaped incinerators with screening on top
to burn sawdust waste were everywhere in the northern Sierras of California.
I'm thinking of places like Greenville and Quincy.  Now the stuff is too
valuable to just burn.  It can be used for energy, particle board, and
sometimes pulp (although often the wrong kind of wood for that in the
northern Sierras).  Those for whom economic insentives weren't enough were
"pursuaded" by pollution laws.

> possibly, i had thought that franklin had fought for it.

He did advocate for metric, but remember he was also around for a while
after the US constitution.  Thomas Jefferson even had some of his own ideas
about a sensible system of measurement.  And as typical of Thomas Jefferson,
they were well reasoned out.

> i'm not sure
> when the units first became available, but i don't doubt the french
> were
> the first to adopt them officially.

Oh, then go look up how the length of the meter was chosen.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\11\27@094817 by Bob Ammerman

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>>
>> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.
>
> As in, reading your gps display ?
>
> Peter

IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

____________________________________________

2004\11\27@095321 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
But of course the actual error is 1/2 of that at both ends because you
center the middle pins.

0.04 mm x 9.5 pins = 0.38 mm error at each end.

0.38 mm / 2.5 mm = 15% error

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2004\11\27@140614 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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olin_piclist@embedinc.com wrote :

> > i'm not sure when the units first became available, but i
> > don't doubt the french were the first to adopt them officially.
>
> Oh, then go look up how the length of the meter was chosen.

And for those interested I'll give a source... :-)

ISBN 91-1-301008-5
Author : Ken Alder, 2002
Title : "The measure of things: The seven-year odyssey and hidden
error that transformed the world."

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743216768/qid=1101581707/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6661
123-5741407

In short :

During the Frech revolution, there was a decision to replace all diffrent
local units of measure in France with one common, the "meter". And they
decided that one meter shoud be 1 tenth of a million of the distance
between the northpool and the equator.

Two of the brigthest astronomist and mathematicans of France of that
time, Delambre and Méchain, was given the task of measuring the
distance from the northpool and the equator, so that the correct
length of the "meter" could be calculated. Now, the full length
is of course hard to measure, so thay decided to measuer the
distance between Dunkerque at the English channel and Barcelona
in Spain. And then extrapolating that distance.

The method they used was "triangulation", the method that was still
used up to a few decades ago. The distance beetween Dunkerque and
Barcelona was devided into aprox 70-80 triangles using churches and
mountains as the "triangulation points".

Now, what is realy interesting in this story, is the accuracy they
was able to achieve (this was aprox 200 yars ago...). All three
angels in each triangle was measured independant of each other.
When they later summed the angels in each triangle they got
a sum that was in average just 5-7 ppm (!) from the ideal 180 deg.
And this was using manual instruments only. This took aprox
7 years, each single angle in each triangle took a couple of weeks
to measure.

A much recomended book for anyone intersted in the
history of science.

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.

____________________________________________

2004\11\27@141250 by Herbert Graf

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On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 09:43 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> >>
> >> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.
> >
> > As in, reading your gps display ?
> >
> > Peter
>
> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation.

Well considering most maps used out there have DMS notation I'm
not quite sure what ELSE should be used, DMS seems pretty
obvious to me. TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\11\27@150104 by madscientist

picon face
gee, i always just called them "arbs", i.e. arbitrary units.  works in
many situations, except where you have more than one type of arb which
gets confusing fast, particularly for those who know physics and like to
do the math on their "units" as well.

Dave VanHorn wrote:
----
> That's what I used when I had to work in polar coordinates.
> I call them (and any unit created for the programmer's convenience) Dilberts.
-------
--
Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real
motives and aims of heir Bush:
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm
<www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html>
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm
____________________________________________

2004\11\27@151142 by David P Harris

picon face
Bob Ammerman wrote:

>
> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation.
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems

Yeah, that might be a rational opinion, but all the boaters out there
are all trained in DMS.  I am taking a Power Squadron course right now,
and it is all DMS.  All the charts are in DMS, etc etc.  Therefore, I
expect the majority of purchasers of GPS units are expecting DMS.

You just have to appreciate history.  Its like the old joke about my
home town:  "How many Victorians does it take to change a light bulb?"

"21, one to change the light bulb, and twenty to stand around and
discuss about how much they liked the old one."

David


____________________________________________

2004\11\27@163302 by madscientist

picon face
agreed!  the distance correlations with DMS only apply along the axis of
the earth in those directions so it really doesn't correlate to much
physically most of the time.  even radians would make more sense to me,
or more easily used degrees with a decimal fraction.  it certainly makes
math much easier, and calculators are not always convenient, and it's
nice to have some quick idea in your head most of the time even when
they are available.  this is an example of inertia in a notational
system rather than something that was logically considered i suspect.
but few manufacturers want to buck convention even when it does make
sense.  it would be nice to have a choice of units.

Bob Ammerman wrote:
-------
> > As in, reading your gps display ?
> >
> > Peter
>
> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation.
-------

--
Just the truth Corporate controlled news is white washing, the real
motives and aims of heir Bush:
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm
<www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5069215-103677,00.html>
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7369.htm
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7370.htm
____________________________________________

2004\11\28@155732 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!]

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <mailinglist2spamKILLspamfarcite.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly


{Quote hidden}

____________________________________________

2004\11\28@162958 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Sat, 27 Nov 2004, Bob Ammerman wrote:

>>> For no conceivable reasonable use: degrees, minutes, seconds.
>>
>> As in, reading your gps display ?
>>
>> Peter
>
> IMHO it is ridiculous that GPS's use DMS notation.

So are all them maps in nautical miles and subdivisions thereof, no ? ;-)

What units would you prefer ? ;-)

Peter
____________________________________________

2004\11\28@165855 by Robert B.

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face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Ammerman" <EraseMErammermanspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTverizon.net>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:Need help badly


> Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!]
>
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems

DMS is your friend if you're ever humping around in the woods with nothing
but a compass and a map.  Dead reckoning (on foot, at least) is based in
part around the DMS system, and knowing how many "paces per second" your
stride is.  IIRC my pace count is right around 45 paces/second of latitude
(also conveniently 45 paces/100 feet).  I suppose you could do it using
decimal degrees as well, but trying to compute that in my head would be a
little tough.  This system translates nicely to GPS, and allows you to go on
week-long expeditions on a single set of GPS batteries, by just using the
GPS for checking up on your position.

Admittedly, the dead reckoning system also uses standard distances, such as
miles and km.  But these also transfer much better to the DMS system (and
human memory).  For example:  if you're 1 mile off course, this is roughly
one minute.  To me this is easier than remembering that one mile is 0.0166
degrees.  Also, conveniently, 100 feet is almost 1 second, which makes
computations easier.

So I disagree that it is stupid.  Perhaps you mean it is only suited to
specialized situations, but that is not the same!


{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\28@174719 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Robert B. wrote:
> DMS is your friend if you're ever humping around in the woods with
> nothing but a compass and a map.

You must have a pretty fancy compass and an amazing ability to follow a
bearing if less than a degree makes any difference to you in the woods.  I'm
a hike leader with the Appalachian Mountain club, have used map and compass
in the woods on a number of occasions, and have even taught it to beginners
in formal courses.  Plus or minus 1 degree would be amazingly accurate.
Most real hiking compasses aren't even marked that accurately, except the
silly fancy models some stores try to sell to those who don't know any
better.  My compass is marked in 5 degree increments, and that's just fine.

> Dead reckoning (on foot, at least)
> is based in part around the DMS system, and knowing how many "paces
> per second" your stride is.

Maybe if you live on the plains or stick to pavement.  Even on regular
trails, you usually just guess your speed in terms of minutes/mile, then use
a watch to get a rough idea of how far you probably traveled.  Of course
this is all out the window when bushwhacking thru sporadically dense
vegitation.

> IIRC my pace count is right around 45
> paces/second of latitude (also conveniently 45 paces/100 feet).

So you're honestly telling me you count paces to measure arc distance
travelled!!?

> I
> suppose you could do it using decimal degrees as well, but trying to
> compute that in my head would be a little tough.

Even if you did this, it would only work when going north or south, unless
you want to do the mental correction for the shortening of longitude
depending on latitude.

> This system translates nicely to GPS, and allows you to go on week-long
> expeditions on a single set of GPS batteries, by just using the GPS
> for checking up on your position.

OK, but you started out saying DMS was useful with "nothing but a compass
and a map".

> Admittedly, the dead reckoning system also uses standard distances,
> such as miles and km.  But these also transfer much better to the DMS
> system (and human memory).  For example:  if you're 1 mile off
> course, this is roughly one minute.

But what does that tell you, when you've got just a map and compass?  "One
mile off course" is already what you want.  What you really want to know is
where you are and where you want to be on the map.  From that you set your
compass to the bearing to follow.  The compass is set by using the lines on
the compass and the lines on the map.  The units the compass is marked with
don't enter in at all except when correcting for magnetic declanation.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
____________________________________________

2004\11\28@185156 by Herbert Graf

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On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 15:57 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!]
>
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems

Well there's alot of stupid out there. My personal favourite is hours,
minutes and seconds (which of course is a direct relation to DMS).

Most imperial units can be pretty dumb, i.e. the number of feet in a
mile.

The stupidest is probably our number system, base10 is horrible to deal
with, base 16 or base 8 would have been far easier on everybody.

TTYL


-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

____________________________________________

2004\11\28@195922 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 28, 2004, at 3:51 PM, Herbert Graf wrote:

> The stupidest is probably our number system, base10 is horrible to deal
> with, base 16 or base 8 would have been far easier on everybody.
>
Huh?  How do you figure that?  Choice of number base (outside computing)
seems pretty arbitrary to me...

BillW

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2004\11\29@020927 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hi,

two remarks:

1. Be aware not to comment obvious things. The statement below shows that
the comment is pretty useless. Reader may want to know WHY it is done,
what the hell is 178 and why must be divided by it, what is in W2 and what
will be put into W0.

>> LET W0 = W2 / 178     'Divide W2 by 178, put answer in W0

2. I guess the DIG operator may be your friend as it selects digits from
the character representation of a number.

Imre

____________________________________________

2004\11\29@051926 by Justin Fielding

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The guys obviously a code generating machine with his mind working in
hex, or, he has a strange defect with 8 fingers/thumbs. ;)

William Chops Westfield wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> ______________________________________________

2004\11\29@181745 by Alex Harford

face picon face
It's a momentum thing.  Lots of sailors are trained with DMS, and all
of the navigation tools use them.  Many people are still trained in
using sextants in case lightning strikes take out their radio/gps in
the middle of the ocean.  (Although a lot of people have a metal box
they put their electronics in when it gets stormy out).

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:57:07 -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> Ok, I give up. [but DMS is still stupid!]
>
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
____________________________________________

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