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'[PIC]:Beginning with the 18F series....'
2003\02\07@173607 by John Nall

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I have not been able to really get this question answered elsewhere
(although I have done a diligent search, as befits a new-comer both to this
list and to PICWorld).  So I am asking the gurus (and, by default, the
wannabees :-)

I want to start doing some PIC development (ham radio stuff -- strictly
personal) and would like to begin with the 18F series.  Most of the
available development/tutorial tools seem deal with earlier versions....

Although I am not a PIC programmer, I am experienced in assembly language
(started with the IBM 1401, which dates me but perhaps some of you know what
that is) and speak hex and all that sort of good stuff.  Also have taught
computer architecture for quite a few years, and so have complete confidence
in myself to read the manuals and understand them.  If forced to, I could
write an assembler (but would not enjoy doing so. :-)

The real question is:  There appears to be a lot of stuff available for
newbies to learn about the 16C84 and, by extrapolation, to some of  the
other models.  There are complete kits with all hardware, programmers, etc.,
available for these.  Are similar  things available for the 18F series???

Thanks for any help.  I hope to be able to contribute something along the
line, but for now just read (except for this one).

John

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2003\02\07@181846 by Gies Family

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> Are similar  things available for the 18F series???

PIC purists with lots of money will whine and say you need a programmer made
by Microchip, but you can go to kitsrus.com and get a P16PRO (40 pin
version) like I have, for $16. There's lots of different software to use
with it as well, you just need to look. It will work with any
serial-programmed PIC following the standard architecture for PICs, although
you may need to define certain information about some newer PICs to get it
to work with them. However, I have tried out almost every PIC that's been
created and I have not had to do that. Just get a 40pin ZIF socket or cut
out the crossbars on the 40-pin socket and you'll be able to fit any PIC in
there. Alternately, I could build one for you on a Radio Shack protoboard
(this design is especially suited to those) for less that KitsRUs wants.

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2003\02\07@182450 by Olin Lathrop

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> I want to start doing some PIC development (ham radio stuff -- strictly
> personal) and would like to begin with the 18F series.  Most of the
> available development/tutorial tools seem deal with earlier versions....

This is true.  The 18F series has been out for about a year, but it takes
a while for people to do personal projects, get them working, then publish
them somewhere.  Despite that, I wouldn't bother with other PIC families
if you are starting now, especially for low volume personal use.  For
simplicity, there are essentially just two PICs for you.  The 18F252 which
is a 28 pin part, and the 18F452 which is the same thing with more I/O
pins in a 40 pin package.  Most of the others are various subsets of these
for saving cost in high volume products.

If you do decide to try the 16 series, stick to the 18 pin 16F628, the 28
pin 16F876, and the 40 pin 16F877 for the same reasons.

> Although I am not a PIC programmer, I am experienced in assembly
language
> (started with the IBM 1401, which dates me but perhaps some of you know
what
> that is) and speak hex and all that sort of good stuff.

A PIC is kinda like a 1401 on a single chip, except that it's faster,
costs hundreds of thousands time less, and uses tens of thousands times
less power.  However, you may miss the awe factor since the PIC doesn't
come with its own machine room, raised floor, air conditioner, and
maintenance staff.  Oh well, that's the price of progress I guess <g>.

> Also have taught
> computer architecture for quite a few years, and so have complete
confidence
> in myself to read the manuals and understand them.

Oh oh.  Now you'll need to practise what you've been preaching.

> The real question is:  There appears to be a lot of stuff available for
> newbies to learn about the 16C84 and, by extrapolation, to some of  the
> other models.

The 16C84 has long been obsoleted.  If you want to try one of the many
projects published for it, at least get a 16F628 which does more, costs
less, and has the same pinout.

> There are complete kits with all hardware, programmers, etc.,
> available for these.  Are similar  things available for the 18F
series???

I don't know, but other people here probably do.  This list is never short
of opinions.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\02\07@183916 by Dave Dilatush

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John Nall wrote...

>Although I am not a PIC programmer, I am experienced in assembly language
>(started with the IBM 1401, which dates me but perhaps some of you know what
>that is) and speak hex and all that sort of good stuff.

Being that experienced on other machines, you won't have any
trouble at all coming up to speed on PICs.  Just buy a selection
of chips, some ceramic resonators and a few 5V voltage
regulators, and start designing.

>The real question is:  There appears to be a lot of stuff available for
>newbies to learn about the 16C84 and, by extrapolation, to some of  the
>other models.  There are complete kits with all hardware, programmers, etc.,
>available for these.  Are similar  things available for the 18F series???

I'm not aware of anything (perhaps others are), but I question
whether you really need much of anything unless you are all
thumbs when it comes to constructing your own electronics
hardware (I take it you're not).

For hobby work with the 18F series, I highly recommend
Microchip's ICD2 in-circuit debugger.  It will program your chip
and allow you to step through code on your target board,
examining registers and ports as needed.  I've been using it on
recent projects with the PIC18F252 and '452, and am very
satisfied.

Dave D.

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2003\02\07@184954 by Ian McLean

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For a great programmer (better than a PICStart+, IMHO) that you can build
yourself, I would highly recommend going to http://www.bubblesoftonline.com
and getting the schematics and source code for the "Pocket Programmer".  It
does everything from 12C 8 pin PICs up to 16F877's and the 18 series as
well.  Lots of features.

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\07@190251 by William Chops Westfield

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   The real question is: There appears to be a lot of stuff available for
   newbies to learn about the 16C84 and, by extrapolation, to some of the
   other models.  There are complete kits with all hardware, programmers,
   etc., available for these.  Are similar things available for the 18F
   series???

I guess this is a good place for a plug.

Recently, in the interest of actually DOING something with the 100s of
PIC chips I've managed to collect, I purchased Myke Predko's book
"Programming and Customizing PICmicro Microcontrollers."  It's pretty
good.   :-)

In particular, microchip is not in the habit of sprinkling their
midrange datasheets with comments like "oh, BTW, this is different
on the 18F, and different again on te 12bit cores."  Myke does, and
I'm finding this very valuable.  The book does focus on the midrange
(14bit) seriese, but does include data on the 18F series as well.

BillW

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2003\02\07@191939 by Tom Messenger

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At 04:01 PM 2/7/03 PST, you wrote:
>In particular, microchip is not in the habit of sprinkling their
>midrange datasheets with comments like "oh, BTW, this is different
>on the 18F, and different again on te 12bit cores."  Myke does, and
>I'm finding this very valuable.  The book does focus on the midrange
>(14bit) seriese, but does include data on the 18F series as well.
>
>BillW

See Microchip apnote AN716 (my copy is filename 00716A.PDF) available at
their site or on the CD. It's called "Migrating designs from PIC16C74A/74B
to PIC18C442" and has most of the "gotchas" listed. They also have another
similar one for migrating from the PIC17 series, I think.

Tom M.

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2003\02\07@193309 by michael brown

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On Friday 07 February 2003 05:17 pm, you wrote:
> > Are similar  things available for the 18F series???
>
> PIC purists with lots of money will whine and say you need a
> programmer made by Microchip, but you can go to kitsrus.com and get a
> P16PRO (40 pin version) like I have, for $16. There's lots of
> different software to use with it as well, you just need to look. It
> will work with any serial-programmed PIC following the standard
> architecture for PICs, although you may need to define certain
> information about some newer PICs to get it to work with them.
> However, I have tried out almost every PIC that's been created and I
> have not had to do that. Just get a 40pin ZIF socket or cut out the
> crossbars on the 40-pin socket and you'll be able to fit any PIC in
> there. Alternately, I could build one for you on a Radio Shack
> protoboard (this design is especially suited to those) for less that
> KitsRUs wants.

I have the picall programmer http://www.picallw.com , also available from KitsRUs and Amazon Electronics.  It cost's a little more than the P16PRO, but the programming software license is included in the price of the kit.  It works flawlessly *and* beats the pants off of most "professional" programmers out there as far as programming speed.  For example, it programs 425 words into a 16F628 and verifies it in under 5 seconds.  It will program nearly any serial programmed PIC.  The newer version of the programmer has an ICSP header for convenient in-circuit programming.  It also programs many Atmel AVR's and some EEPROMS.

michael

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2003\02\08@044520 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > Are similar  things available for the 18F series???
...
> Just get a 40pin ZIF

I don't want to argue with your recommendation of the kitrus programmer
(but of course my Wiso628 is also(?) a good choice), but I vote
passionately against a ZIF socket. I would recommend the OP to use only
flash PICs (easy, he already choose 18F) and to go for In-Circuit
programming. Very convenient, much faster, no wear on the IC pins, no
expensive ZIF socket.

and
- check Microchip's ICD2
- read http://www.voti.nl/swp
- I have a zero-pin (actually reset-pin) bootloader for the 18F's, it
will appear on a web page soon but you can have a copy if you want

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\08@063129 by

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Hi.
I also started with the 18F-series a couple of months ago

You don't need (and I'm note sure there is) some
programer that's *specificaly* for the 18F series.

I'v used Wisp628 with Xwisp software from http://www.voti.nl.
Supports most current PIC types, incl the new 8-pin
12F629 an 12F675. I built it from "scratch" incl etching
my own PCB, but there are complete kits on the page above.

Work just fine ! I use the 18F252, b.t.w.

Jan-Erik Söderholm.


John Nall wrote :

> There are complete kits with all hardware, programmers, etc.,
> available for these.  Are similar  things available for the 18F series???

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2003\02\08@064817 by cdb

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Programmer - about to build the Wouter Special.

Books on 18F series John Peatman Embedded Design with the PIC18F452 ISBN 0130462136.

I wrote a review on the US Amazon books site.  Since then the book has grown on me, but I still stand by what I said about the diagrams.

There is also a website for the book with errata http://www.picbook.com

Colin
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