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'[PIC]: selecting your first --A lengthy rebuttal'
2002\08\02@173734 by Brendan Moran

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> > Beginners should learn the right way from the start before
> > bad habits become difficult to break.
> .
> .
>  Great words. Therefore I contended that beginners should
> start with PIC18XXXX line.
>

The use of a chip that does the job is not a bad habit.  I contend
that intermediate users should use 12CXXX, 16F87X, and 18FXXX.  Each
according to the needs of the project.  One must be versatile to be
effective.  If you get to cushioned by the use of an 18F part, what
are you going to do when you need to use an 8-pin MCU, and find that
the 12C508 lacks half the instructions you're used to?  Better to be
aware of the device differences from the start and learn to program
for all of them.  16F provides a good starting point.  It shows you
that you need to appreciate the advantages of the 18F parts, but
means that you aren't stuck using a 10kg sledge hammer where a tack
hammer would do because you don't know the finesse required to do the
job witht he tack hammer.

We've mentioned the huge problem with the 18F parts before.

For your benifit, I will elaborate again.

The problem is availability.  Not the availability of the chips
themselves, but the availability of the tools required to use them.
AFAIK there are very few easily built programmers for the 18F series
(CUMP will change that, but it's not done yet).  There are several
programmers that can handle the job, but don't have the software
support to actually be able to pull through.

You see, the programming algorithms for the 18F parts are different
enough from those for the 16F parts that they are not
interchangeable.  If *you* want to write that software, the go right
ahead, but until someone does, there is going to be a real problem
with using 18F parts *especially* for beginners.

Next, as Byron went to such lengths to point out, you are ignoring
the fact that beginners will not use a chip that has very few
beginner's circuits already built for it.  If you want beginners to
start using 18F parts, then you'd better either go build some 18F
beginner projects, and document them heavily, or convice everyone
here to switch all their beginner project code to 18F code.

If a google search returns an equal number of 16F627 links as 16F84
links, then beginners might choose the 16F627.  If there are 2 links
way down at the bottom for the 18F452, then like as not, they'll be
choosing either the 84 or the 627.

So, once again, there's a very small likelyhood that beginners will
be using the 18FXXX parts in the near future.  If you take steps to
correct it, then maybe that will change, but for now, it's a stable
point.

Furthermore, I can buy the 16F84, and the 16F877 at Future Active
(commonly known as Active around here).  There are likely others
availble via order, but those are the ones hanging from little pegs
in the store (no shelves there, sorry Peter).

If I had a choice between the 18F452 and the 16F877, I'd likely
choose the 18F452.  I don't seem to have that choice, due to lack of
programmers and lack of supply.  If I make a big order to digikey
sometime soon, I might order one or two 18F parts just to play with,
but for now, all my heavy design use will use 16F parts because I can
program and get ahold of those easily.

Lastly, we are lucky to have someone like Byron on this list.  He is
a great help to many people when they come here asking questions.
Saying that we aren't his students in a lecture, and could he please
shorten his posts so that you can understand them is not a pleasant
way to keep helpful people here. Please note that when his posts are
directed at beginners, they are matter-of-fact, concise and well
thought out.  When his posts are directed at list over what is in
effect a point of methodology, he elaborates more so that those who
read his post unmderstand where he is coming from and how he got
there.  I can't see any reason that he should change that.  I cannot
elaborate more on this subject without the possibility of my
becomming personally offensive to one or more parties, so I will stop
here.  If you wish me to explain further, contact me off-list.

- --Brendan

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2002\08\02@190250 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:35:35 -0700, Brendan Moran wrote: ...snipped...
>
>Lastly, we are lucky to have someone like Byron on this list.  He is a
>great help to many people when they come here asking questions.
>Saying that we aren't his students in a lecture, and could he please
>shorten his posts so that you can understand them is not a pleasant
>way to keep helpful people here. Please note that when his posts are
>directed at beginners, they are matter-of-fact, concise and well
>thought out.  When his posts are directed at list over what is in
>effect a point of methodology, he elaborates more so that those who
>read his post unmderstand where he is coming from and how he got
>there.  I can't see any reason that he should change that.  I cannot
>elaborate more on this subject without the possibility of my becomming
>personally offensive to one or more parties, so I will stop here.  If
>you wish me to explain further, contact me off-list.

Exactly. I'm always amazed that ANYONE would complain about posters to
a FREE list, giving FREE advice using their own (FREE) time. I can
tolerate almost any postings, except personal attacks (which are bad
form anywhere, even online).

For anyone who doesn't like a particular post or user -- hey, there's a
button called "DELETE" on your keyboard. You don't even have to read
the entire message or even any part of it. Use it, it's a very simple
concept. Heck, I wouldn't even be offended if you delete THIS message.
Bitching about someone donating freely of their time, even if it is
opinionated or lengthy, is uncalled for.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2002\08\02@210051 by Mike Singer

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Sorry, my intention was to ask him, not to complain, truly.
I wrote: "Can you find a bit of time to formulate issues sharply and answer it clearly and briefly..." I should use "Could","please",INMHO words, I think.
His considerations were highly interesting to me, really.
But my English is weak. That is why I asked him. No any sarcasm intentions.Sorry again.

  Mike.



Matt Pobursky wrote:
...snipped...
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\02@231812 by Dave King

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At 06:02 PM 02/08/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:35:35 -0700, Brendan Moran wrote: ...snipped...
> >
> >Lastly, we are lucky to have someone like Byron on this list.  He is a
> >great help to many people when they come here asking questions.
> >Saying that we aren't his students in a lecture, and could he please
> >shorten his posts so that you can understand them is not a pleasant
> >way to keep helpful people here.
>
>Exactly. I'm always amazed that ANYONE would complain about posters to
>a FREE list, giving FREE advice using their own (FREE) time. I can
>tolerate almost any postings, except personal attacks (which are bad
>form anywhere, even online).
>
>Matt Pobursky

Uh this isn't in reference to a remark I made a couple days back about
"asking questions until they twitch" is it? Definitely wasn't meant to
slam Byron's contributions (on which I read every word) if it was. Do
I need to begging, groveling, apologetic bit or can I be smug and go
tsk tsk tsk ? ;-]

Just to add my two cents here, this is one of the best lists I have seen for
simply helping out people even if the question is pretty much the same as
the one just asked the week before. That takes a large amount of patience
to repeat or explain something over and over instead of just giving in and
telling
someone to RTFM.

Dave

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2002\08\02@235357 by Byron A Jeff

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On Sat, Aug 03, 2002 at 04:01:47AM +0300, Mike Singer wrote:

First I'd like to thank Brendan and Matt for their words of support.

Dave, it was a joke, no apologies necessary.

>  Sorry, my intention was to ask him, not to complain, truly.
> I wrote: "Can you find a bit of time to formulate issues
> sharply and answer it clearly and briefly..."
> I should use "Could","please",INMHO words, I think.
> His considerations were highly interesting to me, really.
> But my English is weak. That is why I asked him. No any
> sarcasm intentions.Sorry again.
>
>    Mike.

Mike,

My first post to this thread was short, concise, and to the point. And it
was challenged. My rebuttal is an attempt to explain my position.

BAJ

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2002\08\03@095420 by Shawn Mulligan

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Since I am the person that you rebutted, I should add my thanks that you
took the time to explain your position so clearly -- however misguided ;).
That's what I meant to do when I thanked you for the discussion. So, in
fact, you had 3 supporters.

Cheers, Shawn

>My first post to this thread was short, concise, and to the point. And it
>was challenged. My rebuttal is an attempt to explain my position.
>
>BAJ


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