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'[PIC]: selecting your first'
2002\07\31@033638 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> The 16F84 will be obsolete when I will no longer be able to
> buy it off the
> shelf in ones. Although I do not necessarily qualify as a
> poor hobbyist.

OK, so IMHO entry one in the PICmicro FAQ should read like this:

NOTES FOR A BEGINNER: SELECTING YOUR FIRST PICMICRO

1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
* you can not get hold of any other chip
* you are building an exsiting design
* your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)

2. The recommended my first PICmicro's are (copied from Byron's mail on
the gnupic list):
*  The 16F628. The superior successor to the 16F84. Check out my page
here:
  http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/16F628.html
  to see why it's the clear winner.

*  The 16F87X family. Whether small (16F872), medium (16F876), or large
  (16F877) packaging, these chips are packed with features. Since they
are
  self programmable development becomes real easy. Finally they price
out
  really well compared to the 16F84.

*  The 18FXXX family. The new kinds on the block. Faster, larger, and
with
  a superior instruction set and architecture, this family will soon
become
  the rulers of the PIC world. It's going to take some development
though
  because programmers and compilers for the part are slowly coming on
line.

3. Please note that PICmicro chips can be mail-ordered from various
sources in small quantities. Just a few:
* http://www.phanderson.com
* http://www.crownhill.co.uk
* http://www.dontronics.com
* http://www.voti.nl/shop/order.html


Wouter van Ooijen
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2002\07\31@035203 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>OK, so IMHO entry one in the PICmicro FAQ should read like this:

Looks ;like a pretty good set of entries to me. Would give everyone
somewhere to point beginners at.

My only comment is that it would be better to include the comparison table
in the FAQ rather than sending them off down another link. This means that
the warning about turning off the comparators can be included in the FAQ,
without having them look at the FAQ, but not follow the link to the
comparison, and then come back to the list complaining about code that does
not work, because they did not pick up on the change needed :)

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2002\07\31@040844 by Dave King

flavicon
face
At 08:52 AM 31/07/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >OK, so IMHO entry one in the PICmicro FAQ should read like this:
>
>Looks ;like a pretty good set of entries to me. Would give everyone
>somewhere to point beginners at.
>
>My only comment is that it would be better to include the comparison table
>in the FAQ rather than sending them off down another link. This means that
>the warning about turning off the comparators can be included in the FAQ,
>without having them look at the FAQ, but not follow the link to the
>comparison, and then come back to the list complaining about code that does
>not work, because they did not pick up on the change needed :)

One other thing would be a list of programers and associated compilers and what
will work with what.

Ie I am going to use the 16F628 because Byron is making me ;-]
I can build these programmers and use these compilers to program it or
I can buy this and this.

It would save a lot of time and non-productive searching if you could find and
select a programmer, compiler and mcu combination and have them all work
together, instead of sorting through all the options which take a while to know
 what works with what.

my 2 cents

Dave

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2002\07\31@041730 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> It would save a lot of time and non-productive searching if
> you could find and
> select a programmer, compiler and mcu combination and have
> them all work
> together, instead of sorting through all the options which
> take a while to know
>   what works with what.

Feel free to make a list ;)

BTW I am not aware of any compiler / programmer incompatibilities, all
compilers (or assemblers) should generate the same .hex format, and all
programmers should read (or write) this format. For a bootloader the
situation might be a little more complex though.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\07\31@044848 by Katinka Mills
flavicon
face
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:06, you wrote:
> At 08:52 AM 31/07/02 +0100, you wrote:

> One other thing would be a list of programers and associated compilers and
> what will work with what.
>
> Ie I am going to use the 16F628 because Byron is making me ;-]
> I can build these programmers and use these compilers to program it or
> I can buy this and this.
>
> It would save a lot of time and non-productive searching if you could find
> and select a programmer, compiler and mcu combination and have them all
> work together, instead of sorting through all the options which take a
> while to know what works with what.
>
> my 2 cents
>
> Dave

Hi all, for a great web format look at http://www.avrfreaks.net, in the device
section, you select a chip from a table then on its page it has a link to
data sheets, programmers ICE's etc.

Regards,

Kat.


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2002\07\31@050758 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> NOTES FOR A BEGINNER: SELECTING YOUR FIRST PICMICRO
>
> 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
> have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
> * you can not get hold of any other chip
> * you are building an exsiting design
> * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)

and;
* beginners buy old-stock developer kits, with F84,
 test PCB and programmer etc
* the F84 is the most prolific PIC for beginner code
 samples and projects, which will work straight from
 the net, using F628 requires modifying EVERY .asm
 file before they can be used to flash a led, etc!
* the beginner's friend probably has surplus F84's
 to give a few away (especially now they are obsolete)
* the sheer simplicity of F84 is worth something to
 a beginner. I would suggest they have both F84 and
 F628, but use the F84 for everything they can.
* F84 programs TWICE as quick, 18 secs vs 36 secs,
 very important for beginners who are re-programming
 every minute or so...
;o)
-Roman

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2002\07\31@051418 by Dave King

flavicon
face
> > It would save a lot of time and non-productive searching if you could find
> > and select a programmer, compiler and mcu combination and have them all
> > work together, instead of sorting through all the options which take a
> > while to know what works with what.
> > Dave
>
>Hi all, for a great web format look at http://www.avrfreaks.net, in the device
>section, you select a chip from a table then on its page it has a link to
>data sheets, programmers ICE's etc.
>
>Regards,
>
>Kat.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. Would make it very easy to
have a chip and get up and running without wasting time on dead ends
or just trying to get up to speed on what's what.

Dave

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2002\07\31@090127 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:35:26AM +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > The 16F84 will be obsolete when I will no longer be able to
> > buy it off the
> > shelf in ones. Although I do not necessarily qualify as a
> > poor hobbyist.
>
> OK, so IMHO entry one in the PICmicro FAQ should read like this:
>
> NOTES FOR A BEGINNER: SELECTING YOUR FIRST PICMICRO
>
> 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
> have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
> * you can not get hold of any other chip
> * you are building an exsiting design
> * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)

And we have a winner! Wouter knows the few reasons to pick a 16F84.

{Quote hidden}

Thanks for adding some places. If one can live with a $25 US order or paying
shipping then I'd add http://www.digikey.com to the list too.

It's an excellent idea Wouter. Glad you thought of it.

BAJ

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2002\07\31@093859 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 07:04:47PM +1000, Roman Black wrote:
> Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>
> > NOTES FOR A BEGINNER: SELECTING YOUR FIRST PICMICRO
> >
> > 1. The 16c84, 16f84 and 16f84a are obsolete. Don't use them, unless you
> > have a *very* good reason, which could for instance be:
> > * you can not get hold of any other chip
> > * you are building an exsiting design
> > * your design needs to run at 5.5 .. 6.0 Volt (16x84 only)
>
> and;
> * beginners buy old-stock developer kits, with F84,
>   test PCB and programmer etc

We need new stock developer kits. It high up on my priority list to do.

> * the F84 is the most prolific PIC for beginner code
>   samples and projects, which will work straight from
>   the net, using F628 requires modifying EVERY .asm
>   file before they can be used to flash a led, etc!

True. This is Neil's argument. It has merit and I'm willing to conceed it.
All I can offer in response is that the changes are minimal.

Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:

* Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
* Turn off the comparitors
* Change the include file
* Change the processor in the LIST/device line
* Update the config line.

> * the beginner's friend probably has surplus F84's
>   to give a few away (especially now they are obsolete)
> * the sheer simplicity of F84 is worth something to
>   a beginner. I would suggest they have both F84 and
>   F628, but use the F84 for everything they can.

I disagree on both these points:

* For the rank beginner most every new feature can be ignored.
* For the intermediate beginner all of the new hardware is helpful because
 the amount of code to accomplish the same thing is greatly reduced. We all
 remember having to bitbang serial, software PWM, software voltage comparison,
 software timing, multiplexing timers. The 16F628 eliminates all of these
 with its new hardware. And the 16F628 also has drop in code, like Fr.
 McGahee's PICUART code.

> * F84 programs TWICE as quick, 18 secs vs 36 secs,
>   very important for beginners who are re-programming every minute or so...
> ;o)

That's only if you attempt to program the part with a non lazy programmer.
A lazy programmer will bulk erase the part and only program locations that
are not 0x3fff. Uneven wear for sure, but a lot faster.

BAJ

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2002\07\31@104945 by shawnmulligan

picon face
As a beginner, I recommend that you don't just rely on an 'expert' opinion
on which part is right for you. Rather, do Google searches for "16F84
beginner projects", "16F628 beginner projects", and "16F877 beginner
projects" and make a decision based on what you read and what you can
understand at this point. You are likely to find that the abundance of
easy-to-understand, beginner material will point you in the direction of the
16F84. Sure the 16F84 may cost you a couple of bucks more, and offer fewer
features than other PIC microcontrollers, but you will find it easy to use
and that's important for a beginner. If you choose the 16F628 or 16F877 and
come to this list asking for help, you will be greated with "Read The
Manual." and that probably won't be much help.

Once you have learned the basics of microcontrollers, you'll want to move up
the a more richly featured, higher-complexity chip -- maybe even the Texas
Instruments MSP430 series.

Have fun, Shawn



{Original Message removed}

2002\07\31@113443 by Cris Wilson

flavicon
face
I have to agree with Shawn, about choosing the beginner part based
on easy-to-understand beginner material. One of my friends, who is new
to controllers, purchased a F628 a few months ago and banged away at
it with limited success. I lent him a couple of F84s and the PIC'N books
and within 2 weeks he was up and going fine on the F84s. He went back to the
F628s and has had much success since then.

All he needed was some very basic reputable projects that he didn't have to
change the code or the circuit for, so that he could figure out the chip
without
having to worry about whether the code or circuit are wrong.

At 08:57 AM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

_____________________________________________________________
Cris Wilson
Information Resource Consultant
College of Architecture, Arts, and Humanities
Clemson University
spam_OUTcrisTakeThisOuTspamclemson.edu
To report problems email: .....aah_computersKILLspamspam@spam@clemson.edu

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'[PIC]: selecting your first'
2002\08\01@010015 by Byron A Jeff
face picon face
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:57:37AM -0600, shawnmulligan wrote:
> As a beginner, I recommend that you don't just rely on an 'expert' opinion
> on which part is right for you. Rather, do Google searches for "16F84
> beginner projects", "16F628 beginner projects", and "16F877 beginner
> projects" and make a decision based on what you read and what you can
> understand at this point. You are likely to find that the abundance of
> easy-to-understand, beginner material will point you in the direction of the
> 16F84. Sure the 16F84 may cost you a couple of bucks more, and offer fewer
> features than other PIC microcontrollers, but you will find it easy to use
> and that's important for a beginner. If you choose the 16F628 or 16F877 and
> come to this list asking for help, you will be greated with "Read The
> Manual." and that probably won't be much help.

Let's take it point by point:

* As a beginner, not heeding the advise of someone who is more experienced than
 you is a foolish venture. They've already been where you are now and their
 experience is valuable.

* As I have pointed out over and over and over and over again, the 16F84 has
 the weight of inertia on its side. There's more books, tutorial, and projects
 using it because it's been around for nearly 8 years, whereas the others have
 come on the scene more recently.

* The vast majority of the material that applies to the 16F84 can be used
 with the newer chips. It's not a situation like the 18F series parts where
 there's a marked difference in the way that code gets done. 16F84 code runs
 on 16F62X and 16F87X parts virtually unchanged. Everyone seems to be arguing
 that this virtual aspect is too difficult for beginners to understand.

 When I was first starting with PICs in 1995 or so, I ran into exactly the
 same problem that I'm descrbing between the 16C84 and the 16C71, which had
 A/D converters on PORTA. It required 2 extra lines of code to turn them off.

 I just can't see why this is such a big deal.

* Easy to use is a highly debatable topic:
 - The programmer is more difficult. Novice users will build their own
   programmers. Show me a 16F84 programmer that's as simple as the TLVP.
 - The last of features on a 16F84 quickly introduces complexity in
   programming. Not having a hardware USART means having to bit bang. Not
   having multiple timers means having to juggle the single 8 bit timer,
   counting overflows, and tracking multiple virtual timers off the single
   real one. Not having a hardware CCP module means adding code to capture
   the length of time of a pulse or doing lower frequency PWM by hand.
   Not having enough memory (program, RAM, and data EEPROM) causes headaches
   once one gets past the toy project. Not having an internal oscillator
   means that one must deal with the oscillator issue immediately instead of
   being able to put it off until a later time.

  Finally it's all moot anyway because the other chips can run exactly
  what the 16F84 does. It's just that when it's time to take the second step
  the others are ready to step up, while the 16F84 struggles to keep up.

* Honestly when is the last time anyone here has been 'greeted' with a RTFM?
 This is the most useful and helpful forum I know. While I may suggest that
 a new user read/search the archives, turning them away isn't in this list's
 makeup.

All in all I like Brendan's argument the best. Recommending the 16F84 nowadays
is like recommending a 486 or Pentium 90 to a new computer buyer. The
difference is that 16F84's are still available and the others are long gone
from the shelves. They were great in their time, but their time has passed

>
> Once you have learned the basics of microcontrollers, you'll want to move up
> the a more richly featured, higher-complexity chip -- maybe even the Texas
> Instruments MSP430 series.

Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the MSP430. Specifically:

* Features
* Cost
* Availbility
* Packaging
* Development support. And specifically for me: Linux development support
* And most importantly: what does it offer that PICs do not? What is the
 value add that make it worth considering in projects?

I see that my advocacy of the newer PICs has ruffled some feathers. Sorry.
But I'm looking past the blinky LED and towards the intermediate projects
that current novices will very quickly want to get to. At that level each
and every feature of the 16F628/16F87X/18FXXX parts simplifies the life of
the designer. As a designer for nearly any project if I have 16C84/16F84/16F84A
parts and 16F628 parts sitting on my shelf (and I actually have at least one
of each BTW) I would almost always pull the 16F628 for a new design.

So why would I recommend to a novice a part that I in fact would not use?

Bad habits are difficult to get rid of. It's always best not to start them in
the first place. And the 16F84's lack of features creates bad design habits
that are difficult to get rid of.

BAJ
>
> Have fun, Shawn
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\08\01@010030 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:32:12AM -0400, Cris Wilson wrote:
> I have to agree with Shawn, about choosing the beginner part based
> on easy-to-understand beginner material. One of my friends, who is new
> to controllers, purchased a F628 a few months ago and banged away at
> it with limited success. I lent him a couple of F84s and the PIC'N books
> and within 2 weeks he was up and going fine on the F84s. He went back to the
> F628s and has had much success since then.

What resources did he have when he first started? What exactly is in the PIC'N
books that doesn't work for the 16F628? Did he have the book when he first
started?

It sounds like an unfair comparison: 16F628 and no resources vs. 16F84 and
many resources.

>
> All he needed was some very basic reputable projects that he didn't have to
> change the code or the circuit for, so that he could figure out the chip
> without
> having to worry about whether the code or circuit are wrong.

I promise that soon I'll come up with a 16F628 boilerplate to put on my
comparison page plus a couple of drop in novice examples.

BAJ

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2002\08\01@010924 by Peter Crowcroft

flavicon
face
Here is Asia the first uC chip for the beginner is clear:

use an Atmel 89C2051.

I just got these local quotes in Hong Kong for 500 pieces:

AT89C2051-24PC   $US0.62

PIC16F84A-04P    $US1.75

PIC16F628-20P    $US2.53


I suggest these prices indicate the Production usage of PIC and Atmel chips
in the industries of southern China where most of the brown and white
goods, and toys for north America are made.

This price difference has been here for over a year.

I would be very interested to know why there is a difference and what are
the similar price comparisons in north America.


regards,

Peter Crowcroft
            DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
      PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Factory: voice 852-2304 2250    Fax: 852-2729 1400
         M/F, 97 Fuk Wa Street, Sham Shui Po
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2002\08\01@022612 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the
> MSP430.

And how do you run it on 5 Volt and/or with 5 Volt peripherals? Where do
you buy 7803.3 regulators? And is the 430 available in DIP (for
solderless breadboards)?

Wouter

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2002\08\01@095855 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 08:25:26AM +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the
> > MSP430.
>
> And how do you run it on 5 Volt and/or with 5 Volt peripherals? Where do
> you buy 7803.3 regulators? And is the 430 available in DIP (for
> solderless breadboards)?

Well that blows it for me. A 3.3V part, no 5V tolerant I/O, and no DIP
form factor.

I don't need to hear anymore.

Thanks Wouter.

BAJ

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2002\08\01@143119 by shawnmulligan

picon face
Response to Byron A Jeff's argument:

Firstly, realize that I feel that both of our approaches, though opposite,
may be right in different circumstances and with different people. Given
that, my response is not an attack of your method but simply a response.

> * As a beginner, not heeding the advise of someone who is more experienced
than
>   you is a foolish venture. They've already been where you are now and
their
>   experience is valuable.

While this argument sounds good, it simply assumes the premise that with
experience comes the ability to teach and guide beginners -- and this is
just the opposite of my argument. Have you ever had a teacher or professor
that couldn't teach? Who couldn't remember what it was like to be a student?

> * As I have pointed out over and over and over and over again, the 16F84
has
>   the weight of inertia on its side. There's more books, tutorial, and
projects
>   using it because it's been around for nearly 8 years, whereas the others
have
>   come on the scene more recently.

Inertia doesn't have to be bad. I argue that access to more books, turorials
and projects is the greatest strength of the 16F84. And remember, I'm only
recommending the 'F84 for beginners -- as a learning tool.

>
> * The vast majority of the material that applies to the 16F84 can be used
>   with the newer chips. It's not a situation like the 18F series parts
where
>   there's a marked difference in the way that code gets done. 16F84 code
runs
>   on 16F62X and 16F87X parts virtually unchanged. Everyone seems to be
arguing
>   that this virtual aspect is too difficult for beginners to understand.

Once again, it's because the vast majority of material that applies to the
'F84 can be used with the newer chips that I recommend the 'F84 as the PIC
with built-in training wheels.

>   When I was first starting with PICs in 1995 or so, I ran into exactly
the
>   same problem that I'm descrbing between the 16C84 and the 16C71, which
had
>   A/D converters on PORTA. It required 2 extra lines of code to turn them
off.

Being a beginner is all about learning, so I believe that a beginner's first
ADC should be built from discrete components. Then, when they move up to the
fancy micro with all the bells & whistles they'll understand 'how and why'
the device works and not simply set a few registers and feed information
into a black box that smartly spits out ones and zeros.


> * Easy to use is a highly debatable topic:
>   - The programmer is more difficult. Novice users will build their own
>     programmers. Show me a 16F84 programmer that's as simple as the TLVP.

If  a person can't build (or buy) an 'F84 programmer and program the chip
successfully (as millions before have done) then perhaps electronics is not
their thing and they should be seeking other hobbies and different
newsgroups.


>   - The last of features on a 16F84 quickly introduces complexity in
>     programming. Not having a hardware USART means having to bit bang. Not
>     having multiple timers means having to juggle the single 8 bit timer,
>     counting overflows, and tracking multiple virtual timers off the
single
>     real one. Not having a hardware CCP module means adding code to
capture
>     the length of time of a pulse or doing lower frequency PWM by hand.
>     Not having enough memory (program, RAM, and data EEPROM) causes
headaches
>     once one gets past the toy project. Not having an internal oscillator
>     means that one must deal with the oscillator issue immediately instead
of
>     being able to put it off until a later time.

All true, but irrelevant to the beginner.  All of these wonderful things
will unfold to the beginner in due time. I wonder: Have you seen some of the
things that have been done with the 'F84. Many surpass the rank of  'toy
project.'

>    Finally it's all moot anyway because the other chips can run exactly
>    what the 16F84 does. It's just that when it's time to take the second
step
>    the others are ready to step up, while the 16F84 struggles to keep up.

I think this is a ridiculous point. That's not my experience, nor that of
the other engineers around the office here.

> * Honestly when is the last time anyone here has been 'greeted' with a
RTFM?
>   This is the most useful and helpful forum I know. While I may suggest
that
>   a new user read/search the archives, turning them away isn't in this
list's
>   makeup.

I have read many suggestions for new users to "Read the Manual." Now this
advise wasn't given with malice or with the 'F', just with a lack of
appreciation for the limitations of novices.

That said, I think this forum is very helpful and has a great membership.
For example, I have really enjoyed reading the postings of Kiersen (sp?) and
seeing his questions get more and more complex. I feel like I'm taking the
journey with him. He's been given some great advice.

> All in all I like Brendan's argument the best. Recommending the 16F84
nowadays
> is like recommending a 486 or Pentium 90 to a new computer buyer. The
> difference is that 16F84's are still available and the others are long
gone
> from the shelves. They were great in their time, but their time has passed

This is a deceptive argument and doesn't really parallel the current debate.
I would respond that if you are learning beginning machine language
programming in say the Debug environment, a 486 is as good as anything. You
don't need an HP calculator when you are learning to add -- at that stage
all you could do is stare at the pretty orange and blue keys, with all the
funky Greek lettering.

> Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the MSP430.
Specifically:
>
> * Features
> * Cost
> * Availbility
> * Packaging
> * Development support. And specifically for me: Linux development support
> * And most importantly: what does it offer that PICs do not? What is the
>   value add that make it worth considering in projects?

And finally, in reference to the MSP430 micro: I'll simply say that it's
richly featured, ultra low power, low cost, has an inexpensive development
system ($99US), etc... TI has a webpage dedicated to the device at

focus.ti.com/docs/analog/catalog/announcements/brc.jhtml?path=templat
edata/cm/brc/data/20011112msp430home2&templateId=1

On an aside, I've been running one at >125C for months without problem.
And some quick answers:
1) It can be powered with a LDO 3.3V regulator
2) It can be interfaced to 5V logic with a level shifting transciever, such
as the 4245 (see: SN74ALVC16424DGGR at Digikey)
3) It comes in a 44-QFP, which is inconvenient for hobbiests, but I got
around this by designing a small board that
   carries the device, oscillator, RS232 transciever, serial flash, vreg,
etc... You gotta really like it to do this, though.

-Shawn

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2002\08\01@144221 by shawnmulligan

picon face
Wouter wrote:
> > Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the
> > MSP430.
>
> And how do you run it on 5 Volt and/or with 5 Volt peripherals? Where do
> you buy 7803.3 regulators? And is the 430 available in DIP (for
> solderless breadboards)?

3.3V regulators are available from most semiconductor manufacturers. I have
been using the LM2936-3.3 from National

Use a level-shifting transciever to interface the 3.3V to 5.0V. Search for
4245 at Digikey or Texas Instruments.

It comes in a QFP-44, but QFP to DIP adapters are available, but expensive.
I designed some for myself, but that may not be an option to all.

For 99US you can buy a development kit from TI that comes with a protoboard
with headers to all pins, JTAG programming interface and a code-size limited
C compiler. It's worth the $100 to play around. I believe there are MSP430
newsgroups and I'm sure that they would provide more expert advise that I
can.

See the TI website for their MSP430 webpage.

-Shawn

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2002\08\01@144405 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> Being a beginner is all about learning, so I believe that a
> beginner's first
> ADC should be built from discrete components. Then, when they
> move up to the
> fancy micro with all the bells & whistles they'll understand
> 'how and why'
> the device works and not simply set a few registers and feed
> information
> into a black box that smartly spits out ones and zeros.

Although I can agree with a lot of what you say (even though I am on the
f628 or rather the f877 side ;) I disagree with this one. Following your
logic a novice should build his own adder from half-adders instead of
using the add instruction. And he should build his own CPU state-machine
from EPROMs and registers. No, he should build those EPROMs and
registers from gates. But wait, gates consist of transistors. Hardly
anyone realy understands how a transistor works, so why not start with
vacuum tubes? And don't buy them, blow your own! Oh, and go find some
proper sand to make the glass from. Etc. etc.

We are at such a high level already that each level is arbitrarily.
Whichever practical level you choose to start learing and using, there
are always levels below that you can touch briefly but have to take more
or less for granted.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@144615 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> > > Ok Shawn, you just opened a door. So tell us about the
> > > MSP430.
> >
> > And how do you run it on 5 Volt and/or with 5 Volt
> peripherals? Where do
> > you buy 7803.3 regulators? And is the 430 available in DIP (for
> > solderless breadboards)?

> 3.3V regulators are available from most semiconductor
...
> Use a level-shifting transciever to interface the 3.3V to
...
> It comes in a QFP-44, but QFP to DIP adapters are available,

That more or less disqualifies it as an alternative 'first PICmicro' for
hobbyists and small-scale SOHO professionals. Which does not say that it
can't be the right choice for others.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@145930 by shawnmulligan

picon face
Right. I apologize if I made it sound like a beginner's chip. I see it as a
PIC contender for the advanced hobbiest.

-Shawn
>
> That more or less disqualifies it as an alternative 'first PICmicro' for
> hobbyists and small-scale SOHO professionals. Which does not say that it
> can't be the right choice for others.
>

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2002\08\01@150402 by shawnmulligan

picon face
> Although I can agree with a lot of what you say (even though I am on the
> f628 or rather the f877 side ;) I disagree with this one. Following your
> logic a novice should build his own adder from half-adders instead of
> using the add instruction. And he should build his own CPU state-machine
> from EPROMs and registers. No, he should build those EPROMs and
> registers from gates. But wait, gates consist of transistors. Hardly
> anyone realy understands how a transistor works, so why not start with
> vacuum tubes? And don't buy them, blow your own! Oh, and go find some
> proper sand to make the glass from. Etc. etc.


No, I'm not suggesting that. Really, that kind of sends my argument down the
slippery slope. I simply think that beginner should get his/her hands dirty
on a couple of opamps, transistors, resistors, maybe a coil, etc. I must say
that I love your idea of 'rolling your own' vacuum tubes though. I would
have many beers with someone that dedicated!

-Shawn

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2002\08\01@150758 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> Right. I apologize if I made it sound like a beginner's chip.
> I see it as a
> PIC contender for the advanced hobbiest.

The problem there is that even an advanced hobbyist is not likely to
change to a 3.3V, non-DIP, etc. chip. Hobbyist / SOHO ineratia is bigger
than for large-numbers developers. Most of them (me?, us?) can't even
look over the PIC/AVR fence, while those are (compared to a 430) almost
the same chips...

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@151356 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> I must say
> that I love your idea of 'rolling your own' vacuum tubes though.
> I would have many beers with someone that dedicated!

I proposed that to my physics teacher (when I was ~ 13y). He laughed
loud and sarcastically and said that I should use water valves instead.
He was the kind that (even way back then) liked to use highly integrated
one-purpose chips. In frustration I partly switched myn interests to
chemistry, which had a more adventurous teacher.

More recently I dreamed about building my own CPU from all those RAMs,
EPROMs and '245 chips lying around, porting gcc to it and running Linux.
But realising that 10 MIPS is almost impossible to reach that way (1 is
more likely) spoiled the fun.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\01@152042 by Brendan Moran

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> The problem there is that even an advanced hobbyist is not likely
> to change to a 3.3V, non-DIP, etc. chip. Hobbyist / SOHO ineratia
> is bigger than for large-numbers developers. Most of them (me?,
> us?) can't even look over the PIC/AVR fence, while those are
> (compared to a 430) almost the same chips...

My first intro to MCUs was a PIC16C710 (I think, i might have the
number a bit wrong, but it's been years since I saw the thing, so I
don't really remember) But my first really heavy interest in MCUs was
played out on the MC68HC12B32.  It's a LQFP chip, but I had the eval
board, so that was OK.

Honestly, I think that it may have been nicer than this MSP430 that's
being proposed.  Try looking up the HC12 as an advanced CPU.

- --Brendanc

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2002\08\01@153057 by shawnmulligan

picon face
LOL

> > I must say
> > that I love your idea of 'rolling your own' vacuum tubes though.
> > I would have many beers with someone that dedicated!
>
> I proposed that to my physics teacher (when I was ~ 13y). He laughed
> loud and sarcastically and said that I should use water valves instead.
> He was the kind that (even way back then) liked to use highly integrated
> one-purpose chips. In frustration I partly switched myn interests to
> chemistry, which had a more adventurous teacher.
>
> More recently I dreamed about building my own CPU from all those RAMs,
> EPROMs and '245 chips lying around, porting gcc to it and running Linux.
> But realising that 10 MIPS is almost impossible to reach that way (1 is
> more likely) spoiled the fun.
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

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2002\08\01@162913 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
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> > I must say
> > that I love your idea of 'rolling your own' vacuum tubes though.
> > I would have many beers with someone that dedicated!
>
> I proposed that to my physics teacher (when I was ~ 13y). He
> laughed loud and sarcastically and said that I should use water
> valves instead. He was the kind that (even way back then) liked to
> use highly integrated one-purpose chips. In frustration I partly
> switched myn interests to chemistry, which had a more adventurous
> teacher.
>
> More recently I dreamed about building my own CPU from all those
> RAMs, EPROMs and '245 chips lying around, porting gcc to it and
> running Linux. But realising that 10 MIPS is almost impossible to
> reach that way (1 is more likely) spoiled the fun.

You could always get a large Xilinx FPGA and build a CPU on it, then
port Linux to that, and get more than 10MIPS...  Not quite the same,
I know, but very similar when you think about it...

Incidentally, Am I the only one that's interested in the Piclist MCU
idea?  You know, where we all band together, and go buy ourselves a
custom designed MCU?

- --Brendan

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2002\08\01@163258 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 12:37:54PM -0600, shawnmulligan wrote:
> Response to Byron A Jeff's argument:
>
> Firstly, realize that I feel that both of our approaches, though opposite,
> may be right in different circumstances and with different people. Given
> that, my response is not an attack of your method but simply a response.
>
> > * As a beginner, not heeding the advise of someone who is more experienced
> than
> >   you is a foolish venture. They've already been where you are now and
> their
> >   experience is valuable.
>
> While this argument sounds good, it simply assumes the premise that with
> experience comes the ability to teach and guide beginners -- and this is
> just the opposite of my argument. Have you ever had a teacher or professor
> that couldn't teach? Who couldn't remember what it was like to be a student?

Of course. And I've seen it a lot as a college professor. But it's the
exception and not the rule. It pays to heed the advise of those who have
been there before.

{Quote hidden}

But here's the problem. Users, especially beginners, take a new tool and try
to use it as a solution for everything. It's what one of colleagues used to
call "...you love what you learn." We all do it. To this day I still use
Slackware Linux even though every newer Linux version generally has more
features. The simple fact of the matter is that the 16F628 is much much closer
to the higher end midrange and highrange PICs than the 16F84. A beginner
can learn about the right tools right away instead of having to circumnavigate
the obstacles presented by the 16F84.

In short, if they can do it right from the beginning, why shouldn't they?

{Quote hidden}

You're still missing the point. There is a large conceptual gulf that occurs
when transistioning from novice to intermediate usage. This is at the point
where you have activites that you must do in software on the 16F84 vs. being
able to use the builtin hardware on the other parts. Bit banging serial ports
and doing software timers should not be the primary way to learn how to do
these activites. But with the 16F84 one is forced to do it that way.

That's the problem, while 16F84 code translates up, the code from other
midrange PICs do not translate down. So novices have to relearn and rethink
how to lay out projects when they outgrow their training wheels.

It adds complexity, not reduces it.

{Quote hidden}

I disagree. One should always learn the highest abstraction that works and
continue to use it until the abstraction breaks. One should treat it
exactly like a black box that smartly and correctly spits out ones and
zeros until such time as the abstraction breaks down.

Why not simply have our erstwhile users build their circuits from transistors
then? The whole point of using a microcontroller is to provide a high level
abstraction for programming activities. The extra hardware is part and parcel
of that abstraction.

Here's an example: you need a async serial port. With the 16F84 you are stuck
with bitbanging. With the 16F628 you can use the hardware port. Now does this
mean that you should not learn bitbanging? Of course not. You will need 2
serial ports at some point in time. But you don't have to learn how to do it
now. Use the abstraction until a time as it doesn't work anymore.

It also illustrates what I'm talking about in terms of the 16F84 not being
forward compatible. With the 16F84 one must learn to bitbang serial. But
when one steps up later on, you'll have to relearn how to use the hardware
serial port.

I've been on both sides of this debate and I have to admit that I have been
swayed. As a former computer science professor it was my firm belief that
students should learn the process of programming from the ground up. I was
persuaded to consider in a rather heated debate with a colleague that maybe
the best way to teach programming data structures is from a usage standpoint
first. Specifically teach using data structures with the C++ Standard Template
Library. I argued as you do, that doing it from the ground up will give a
firmer foundation to build upon. My colleague pointed out that if students
were unsuccessful in understanding and applying that low level knowledge that
it wouldn't matter anyway. While we parted ways still fundamentally disagreeing
I certainly was persuaded by that argument. You see part of the results here.

Use the highest abstraction. The additional hardware supports that higher
abstraction. It's possible to drop down later if necessary.

I see one difference between us now. See I find the extra hardware the
training wheels. You can do more with less code and less indepth understanding.
You seem to think that the extra stuff is an impediment and that beginners
should learn how to "Do it the hard way..." first.

{Quote hidden}

The programmer is a tool. Wasting time on it is like wasting time building
a screwdriver. But many novices will have that level of understanding. So
the simpler it can be made, the better off the novice will be.

{Quote hidden}

I know. However in the end it required a much higher level of design complexity
in order to achieve it. And the one thing we seem to agree on is that
added complexity is not good for novice users.

Another point I want to pound. Novices do not stay novices for long. So in
starting out it is relevant as to what happens at the 1st and 2nd pleateau.
You may have an argument if there was a vast difference in the beginning.
There isn't a vast difference and in fact starting out favors the 16F628:

* Simpler programmer
* Less hardware (No oscillator)

Then at the first transistion to real projects

* Real hardware
* Simpler programming interface
* More can be done with less management because hardware is managing.

Just think about the 1st time a programmer needs to monitor the length of a
button press while receiving or transmitting a serial byte at the same time
to know what I'm talking about at this level.

The second transition is easier too...

* More memory
* More I/O
* Shares many periperals with bigger better chips so a simpler transision up.

BTW the oscillator issue is immediate because no successful PIC project runs
without an oscillator.

It's only simpler at the surface. In the true analysis it really is an
issue where less is less (16F84) and more is more (16F628/16F87X)

>
> >    Finally it's all moot anyway because the other chips can run exactly
> >    what the 16F84 does. It's just that when it's time to take the second
> step
> >    the others are ready to step up, while the 16F84 struggles to keep up.
>
> I think this is a ridiculous point. That's not my experience, nor that of
> the other engineers around the office here.

That's nice. Apply your experience to my example above. For me it was more
difficult to manage it on a 16F84 than a 16F877. And I'm not a novice
programmer. Not impossible, but more diffiult that when the hardware to
handle the job is around.

{Quote hidden}

My experience in this matter is in variance with yours. ;-)

>
> That said, I think this forum is very helpful and has a great membership.

This is more my experience...

{Quote hidden}

However once one knows the basics, the calculator continues to be useful as
you progress. Even if you don't use the stat functions, the programming, and
the graphic capabilities initially, they will be there when you do need them.

> [MSP430 deleted. Followed up in another thread... BAJ]

BAJ

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2002\08\01@170106 by Brendan Moran

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> > Being a beginner is all about learning, so I believe that a
> > beginner's first ADC should be built from discrete components.
> > Then, when they move up to the fancy micro with all the bells &
> > whistles they'll understand 'how and why' the device works and
> > not simply set a few registers and feed information into a black
> > box that smartly spits out ones and zeros.
>
> I disagree. One should always learn the highest abstraction that
> works and continue to use it until the abstraction breaks. One
> should treat it exactly like a black box that smartly and correctly
> spits out ones and zeros until such time as the abstraction breaks
> down.
>
> Why not simply have our erstwhile users build their circuits from
> transistors then? The whole point of using a microcontroller is to
> provide a high level abstraction for programming activities. The
> extra hardware is part and parcel of that abstraction.

I like using abstraction.  That said, I like to understand the basis
of a device.  When I was starting learning about digital circuits, I
had the most horrible time figuring things out until I went back and
looked at the schematics for simple gates.  After seeing those, I
understood the operation of the gates much better.  And when push
came to shove, in my second level Digital electronics course, I had a
far better understanding of digital electronics than most people in
my classes.  I was actually able to use the "fearless engineering"
tactic, and breadboard an entire circuit, and have it work the first
time (or if not, be able to troubleshoot it quickly).

Now, I never actually went about building a TTL gate from
transistors, but I did understand the underlying principles.  As for
an ADC, building one from discreet components is, in my opinion, a
waste of time.  Show someone with a basic understanding of opamps as
comparators a schematic for a basic flash converter, and they should
understand the concept well enough that they don't need to build one,
then let them get on to what ever it was that they were designing.
Once they have learnt some more, explain successive aproximation
converters.  But building a successive approximation converter is a
waste of time if you already understand the concept behind it.

Now, having ranted all that out, I think that teaching on an
abstracted level is a good thing.  Most beginners don't need to know
the basis of the operation of an MCU for them to be able to write
code for one.  They only need to know that it will do presicely what
they tell it to, and not what they want it to.  Honestly, who needs
to know the ins and outs of an ALU to be able to program a PIC?

I haven't even gone about working out the ins and outs of an ALU,
though I know that I could if I wanted to.  I'm confident that if I
had enough motivation to do so, I could design a (very inefficient,
very simple) CPU.  I'm not an expert in these things, but I have an
underlying knowledge of digital circuitry, which helps considerably.
If I have a simple problem to solve, I know how to karnaugh map an (4
variable, I don't know divide and conquer) equation to determine the
simplest circuit for the job.

But for all my ranting, I say again, teaching abstraction is a good
principle, but pointing people to resources that they need to
understand the governing principles on which the abstraction is
founded makes them far more versitile when crunch time comes.

I guess by this length I've exceeded $0.02, so I guess that's about
$0.36 there.

My $0.36

- --Brendan

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2002\08\01@172715 by shawnmulligan

picon face
Thanks for the discussion Byron. Had I know that you were a professor, I
wouldn't have tried to change your opinion ;)

-Shawn

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2002\08\01@180046 by Dipperstein, Michael

face picon face
> From: Byron A Jeff [EraseMEbyronspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCC.GATECH.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:32 PM

[...]

{Quote hidden}

Where was your colleague when I took a class on ordinary differential equations?
Nine weeks of guessing techniques, and one week of Laplace transforms.

-Mike

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2002\08\01@182052 by Dave King

flavicon
face
At 03:26 PM 01/08/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Thanks for the discussion Byron. Had I know that you were a professor, I
>wouldn't have tried to change your opinion ;)
>
>-Shawn

Nah Shawn

Those are the guys you need to go after and discuss things until
they can prove you wrong, you can prove them wrong, or they get
 gray hair, start twitching and drooling in the corners......;-]

Dave

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2002\08\01@192105 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
Thankfully my school days are over, and gone are the days when disagreeing
with another's opinion can cost me a grade point. I must admit, it was fun
to watch the twitching and drooling though.

-Shawn

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\01@200511 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>As a beginner, I recommend that you don't just rely on an 'expert' opinion
>on which part is right for you. Rather, do Google searches for "16F84
>beginner projects", "16F628 beginner projects", and "16F877 beginner
>projects" and make a decision based on what you read and what you can
>understand at this point. You are likely to find that the abundance of
>easy-to-understand, beginner material will point you in the direction of
the
>16F84. Sure the 16F84 may cost you a couple of bucks more, and offer fewer

Sounds like we should put a page on piclist.com that has suitable strings in
it to be caught by any likely beginner search, that would give them a
comparison, and help in converting to the F628 :)

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2002\08\01@210538 by Mike Singer

picon face
Byron,
Can you find a bit of time to formulate issues sharply and answer it clearly and briefly as Olin does.  We aren't your students sitting around a lecture-room.
I'm posting this message, since your considerations are highly interesting, but still too diffused to be easily
grasped.

  Mike.

Byron A Jeff wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\01@234804 by Bill & Pookie

picon face
Wow,

Just read Byron A Jeff's reply to Shawn Mulligan.
Many interesting ideas there, both views.

My concern is that the novice has success with
their first few projects and  frustrations are
kept to a minimum.

One thing I see on here that gives me concern is
the problems people have in building their
programmer.  Something that must be done before
the first project is started.

And I have a question about this.  Looking at the
web pages from olimex at
http://www.olimex.com/dev/  it appears as if it is
possible to purchase a assembled and tested
programmer PIC-PG1 for $7.00 USD and a assembled
and tested prototype board PIC-P18B-20MHz for
$13.00 USD.  The postage to USA would be $8.00
USD.  Adding the power supply, downloading the
free programming software and plugging in the
16F628 chip would be all that was needed to
program and run the pic chip.  Is this correct?
Would use the microchip assembler.

Bill

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\01@235313 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
> Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
>
> * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
> * Turn off the comparitors
> * Change the include file
> * Change the processor in the LIST/device line
> * Update the config line.

Done!

Windows though :-)

http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/projects/f62xconv.zip

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2002\08\02@055944 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> Thankfully my school days are over, and gone are the days
> when disagreeing
> with another's opinion can cost me a grade point. I must
> admit, it was fun
> to watch the twitching and drooling though.

Welcome to the 'big' world, where all you can lose for having a
different opinion is a new job, a salary raise, other career
opportunities, your wife, friends, kids, your current job, your
citizenship, and worst of all: your PIClist subscription ;)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\02@083549 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 01:19:05PM +1000, Tony Nixon wrote:
> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> > Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> > automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
> >
> > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
> > * Turn off the comparitors
> > * Change the include file
> > * Change the processor in the LIST/device line
> > * Update the config line.
>
> Done!
>
> Windows though :-)
>
> http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/projects/f62xconv.zip

Does yours do anything that not listed above?

BAJ

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2002\08\02@091424 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
>
> * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20

I hope it doesn't.  CBLOCK implies absolute mode, which should be scorned by
all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.

RAM should be allocated with the RES directive.  This would require no code
changes in moving from the 16F84 to the 16F628, just a switch to the linker
file for the new processor.

> * Turn off the comparitors

Note that this step would also not require code changes if using my
templates at http://www.embedinc.com/pic.  The PORT module automatically
disables comparitors and A/Ds when present.  These are enabled later only by
code that knows about and uses them.  A few IFDEFs solve this problem for
good.  See the QQQ_PORT.ASPIC module for the code details.

> * Change the include file

There should be no need to change your project include file.  I think you
meant to say you need to change which processor-specific Microchip include
file is referenced.

> * Change the processor in the LIST/device line

This and the previous one are one line each once for the whole project.

> * Update the config line.

Yup, this should be inspected carefully everytime the processor is changed.

All in all these changes are trivial if proper programming practice was used
in the first place.


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2002\08\02@093556 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

flavicon
face
Shouldn't this thread have an ending to the subject line?

Selecting your first ...programmer ...PIC ...project ...car ...computer
...girl? :-)

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2002\08\02@095551 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
>
> I hope it doesn't.  CBLOCK implies absolute mode, which should be scorned by
> all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.


Hi Olin, the linker is a nice tool for the serious
professional who works with modules on larger projects.
Wasn't this whole thread about *beginners* who were
inconvenienced by lack of info on the F628 compared to
all the easy code around for 16F84??

By the same "beginner" argument then absolute mode is
the preferred mode, not the linker. I believe that YOU
are more productive in linker mode, but not that any
PIC beginners are. ;o)
-Roman

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2002\08\02@101248 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 07:57:05PM -0700, Bill & Pookie wrote:
> Wow,
>
> Just read Byron A Jeff's reply to Shawn Mulligan.
> Many interesting ideas there, both views.

Thanks,

>
> My concern is that the novice has success with
> their first few projects and  frustrations are
> kept to a minimum.
>
> One thing I see on here that gives me concern is
> the problems people have in building their
> programmer.  Something that must be done before
> the first project is started.

Correct. That's why I designed the Trivial LVP programmer. It can wired
on a breadboard in about a 1/2 hour. It uses components that passes what I
call the 'Radio Shack test' meaning that it uses parts that are supposed to
be in stock at any Radio Shack. And the RatShack does have all of the solder
equipment necessary if a more permanent solution is required. I've always
treated them as my electronics convenience store. A bit pricey, limited stuff,
but when you want a part right now and it's 4:30 on a Sunday, they are the
ticket.

The only part I haven't managed easily is the actual DB25 connector to the
parallel port. It'll require either cutting a male end off an existing
cable and toning out the leads, or getting a DB25 male solder cup and
soldering the required wires to it.

{Quote hidden}

In theory. That programmer trusts that the serial port meets RS232 specs,
which is not always true. It's better than most serial programmers because
it actually has zeners in place to limit the voltage to the pins.

The other problem is just time. It'll take 15-21 days to have it shipped from
Bulgaria I believe.

> Would use the microchip assembler.

Doesn't matter as it's the programming software that makes a difference.
I'm pretty sure that David Tait's FPP can be configured to drive this puppy.

I may start thinking about a Trivial Serial programmer too.

BAJ

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2002\08\02@102604 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 08:48:53AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> > automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
> >
> > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
>
> I hope it doesn't.  CBLOCK implies absolute mode, which should be scorned by
> all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.
>
> RAM should be allocated with the RES directive.  This would require no code
> changes in moving from the 16F84 to the 16F628, just a switch to the linker
> file for the new processor.

Olin, I promise that I will agree to disagree. I know that you are right.
I agree that you are right. But there are so many impediments to doing it
right that it's almost not worth bothering to discuss.

* The vast majority of all assembler code, and I think I can safely say all
 tutorial PIC assembler code is in absolute format.

* And through no fault of yours ;-) some of us are not Windows users. And so
 linkers are not necessarily available. Check that: gputils does have a
 linker. I will have to test it out once I figure out how it works.

Might you have a quick linker tutorial somewhere?

{Quote hidden}

Correct.

{Quote hidden}

The problem is though that we're talking about rank novices that don't
really understand what each of these mean. I plan to put together a conversion
page. And after hearing you out, and agreeing with you, I think that it may
need two phases:

* 16F84 to 16F628 and...
* Absolute to relative.

BAJ

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2002\08\02@104752 by shawnmulligan

picon face
Thanks Wooter. There goes my day! ;)

> > Thankfully my school days are over, and gone are the days
> > when disagreeing
> > with another's opinion can cost me a grade point. I must
> > admit, it was fun
> > to watch the twitching and drooling though.
>
> Welcome to the 'big' world, where all you can lose for having a
> different opinion is a new job, a salary raise, other career
> opportunities, your wife, friends, kids, your current job, your
> citizenship, and worst of all: your PIClist subscription ;)
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

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2002\08\02@105958 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> Welcome to the 'big' world, where all you can lose for having a
> different opinion is a new job, a salary raise, other career
> opportunities, your wife, friends, kids, your current job, your
> citizenship, and worst of all: your PIClist subscription ;)

Nope, not your PICList subscription.  I don't think we've ever booted
someone for a differing opinion, at least I know for sure I never have.
If that were the case it'd be a pretty small list, even the admins don't
agree on a lot of things!!  8-)

Dale

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2002\08\02@115827 by Wouter van Ooijen

picon face
> Nope, not your PICList subscription.

Well, someone might have a dissident opinion about what is to be
discussed on the piclist (religion, politics and other flames wars) and
I think he/she will be kicked off (at least I hope so).

Anyway, the remark was marked with a ;)

BTW, Shouldn't we have a [;)]: subject?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\02@121152 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Hi Olin, the linker is a nice tool for the serious
> professional who works with modules on larger projects.
> Wasn't this whole thread about *beginners* who were
> inconvenienced by lack of info on the F628 compared to
> all the easy code around for 16F84??
>
> By the same "beginner" argument then absolute mode is
> the preferred mode, not the linker. I believe that YOU
> are more productive in linker mode, but not that any
> PIC beginners are. ;o)

Beginners should learn the right way from the start before bad habits become
difficult to break.  Most programming environments don't offer an absolute
mode.  MPLAB does for backward compatibility.  The concept of compiling to
relocatable code and using a linker is pretty universal and basic, and
MPLINK is a rather straight forward linker.  If a beginner doesn't
understand such a basic concept, then they will be well served by learning
it as soon as possible.  Linking is one of the fundamentals of computer
science.  I wouldn't want a beginner trying do design a simple circuit
without understanding Ohm's law either.

I see code with ORG directives on this list way too often.  I think this is
because many people started with absolute code, perhaps just to "get
started", but then never left that mode.  Worse yet, they then post their
absolute code, which causes more beginners to start that way, which
causes...  Starting right is the only way to avoid that trap.


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2002\08\02@122159 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Might you have a quick linker tutorial somewhere?

No, but my HAL project (http://www.embedinc.com/pic/hal.htm) comes with the
necessary linker control file and complete build scripts so you can see how
all the tools are run and what is passed to them.  It is a complete
buildable operational example.

I don't think a linker tutorial is necessary.  MPLINK is pretty much a run
of the mill linker, actually dumber than most.  When I first started with
PICs I read all the MPASM/MPLIB/MPLINK docs and recall that the linker
pretty much worked the way I expected it to and haven't given it much
thought since.  The only problem I remember was that the linker wanted the
keywords in the control file to be upper case even though there was no
mention of this in the manual (that I noticed, at least).  Fortunately that
didn't take long to figure out.


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2002\08\02@123412 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > Nope, not your PICList subscription.
>
> Well, someone might have a dissident opinion about what is to be
> discussed on the piclist (religion, politics and other flames wars) and
> I think he/she will be kicked off (at least I hope so).

Ah, I see your point.  Yes, differing opinions on what constitutes proper
list behavior, yes.  Just not technical differences, or anythign else for
that matter unless it becomes a public spectacle.

> Anyway, the remark was marked with a ;)
>
> BTW, Shouldn't we have a [;)]: subject?

Aren't they all, eventually?  8-)

Dale

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2002\08\02@165933 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
.
.
> Beginners should learn the right way from the start before
> bad habits become difficult to break.
.
.
Great words. Therefore I contended that beginners should
start with PIC18XXXX line.

  Mike.

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2002\08\02@183542 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > Beginners should learn the right way from the start before
> > bad habits become difficult to break.
> .
> .
>  Great words. Therefore I contended that beginners should
> start with PIC18XXXX line.

I'm not sure if this is a serious statement or a religious statement.  If
the latter: let's not get into that sort of crap, -------.  If the former:

The choice of 18 versus 16 family is not an issue of right or wrong.  There
are still legitimate reasons one might chose a 12, 16, or 18 family PIC for
a particular design.  This is very different from bad programming practise
versus good programming practise.

It does seem, however, that Micrchip's pricing makes an 18 part a better
choice for some high volume designs even where a 16 part would have been
adequate.  I have been quoted lower a lower price for high volumes of the
18F452 than for the 16F877 in the same package.


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2002\08\02@203822 by Mike Singer

picon face
I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
versus others, though I do realize I should.

By "bad habits" for beginners I mean not using particulaly
12XXX or 16XXX. "Bad habits" is to start learning something
that is a kind of garbage, especially for educational purposes.
I know you disagree with me, but it can't change my position:
12-16XXX are garbage from the beginner's point of veiw to
start with.
If a beginner keeps in mind he ever would use <20 pin chips
he definitely should turn to AVR line. If not - then 18XXXX still
is a good choice. If he seems to feel a lack of tools or supply
for 18XXXX let him (beginner) go to AVR.
Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX!
_SUPPLY_ IT, piclisters!!! Do not ask what PICList can do
for you. Ask yourselves what can you do for PICList.
As for me, It is a deep marasmus to stick from the start (for
beginner) with bank switching, too poor command set, port
latching etc when there is 18XXXX or AVR on the market for
lower prices without those stupid drawbacks.
I don't see why 18XXXX is much complex then 12-16XXX to
start with. Many beginners choosed "complex" AVR and are
happy with it, as you see.
The fact that there still exist market for 12-16XXX has no relation
to beginner.
For non beginner: Nobody would agree to pay more for a job
for just using PICs in a project. With 12-16XXX one can't reach
productivity and sometime quality as with AVR. So one is to
admit to lower wages.

Thank you for you spent your time replying to my posting.

  Mike.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
PS: What I'm doing by these postings translated from russian
sounds like (15 years ago): "Agitate for communism". :-)



Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\02@210711 by Alexandre Souza

flavicon
face
>  I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
> versus others, though I do realize I should.
>  As for me, It is a deep marasmus to stick from the start (for
> beginner) with bank switching, too poor command set, port
> latching etc when there is 18XXXX or AVR on the market for
> lower prices without those stupid drawbacks.
>  For non beginner: Nobody would agree to pay more for a job
> for just using PICs in a project. With 12-16XXX one can't reach
> productivity and sometime quality as with AVR. So one is to
> admit to lower wages.

       I DO agree with you. I've tried AVR and sold/given ALL my pic
devices and equipment. Now I'm more than happy with AVR, and I'll
never look back to PIC (Problematic Idiot Controller) hehehe

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2002\08\02@210910 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
> versus others, though I do realize I should.

Sure you can, if you put your mind to it (;
But I understand that you are defending your argument, and that's
fine.

>  By "bad habits" for beginners I mean not using particulaly
> 12XXX or 16XXX. "Bad habits" is to start learning something
> that is a kind of garbage, especially for educational purposes.
>  I know you disagree with me, but it can't change my position:
> 12-16XXX are garbage from the beginner's point of veiw to
> start with.

I disagree about those being garbage.  I have at home 12 8748s.
These are processors with 1k of memory, 64 bytes of RAM, no EEPROM,
no integrated peripherals, and are intel architecture to boot.  They
required 25V to program, and they have almost non-existant
documentation.  They do have one measly advantage over a PIC: you can
read from and write to the 8 level stack.  Oh, and they're register
based, and they only run at 800kHz

Now, those are truely garbage in comparison to any other device I've
worked with.  If you'd ever tried to program on one of those, you'd
be truly appreciative of the PIC 16F series by comparison.  16 series
PICs aren't garbage.  Just because you don't like them is no reason
to go about saying that they aren't worth using.

>  If a beginner keeps in mind he ever would use <20 pin chips
> he definitely should turn to AVR line. If not - then 18XXXX still
> is a good choice. If he seems to feel a lack of tools or supply
> for 18XXXX let him (beginner) go to AVR.

>  Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX!
> _SUPPLY_ IT, piclisters!!!

You have forgotten the critical rule of Open Source.  If it's not
there, and you want it... guess who gets to write it?  That's right!
You do! (Or someone you pay).  As it stands, I have no desire to do
so, so no, in the great words of Eric Frank Russel in "The Great
Explosion", "I won't".

You're the one who wants it, stop telling us that we should want it,
and go out, and prove to us that we should want it by writing the
software to make it commonly available so that we have a reason to
try it out, and decide that it's better.

If there develops a demand for 18F parts in my area, and no stores
are stocking them, I will buy them and programmers for them, then I
will mail them to people near here, and donate part of the profits to
the PICList, and I recommend that others on the list do likewise, I'm
sure James would be happy to have a section on the list's site that
says "For distributors of 18F parts and programmers in your area,
click here."

{Quote hidden}

If you like the AVR better, why are you recommending the 18F?

> PS: What I'm doing by these postings translated from russian
> sounds like (15 years ago): "Agitate for communism". :-)

"Do not ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for
your country"

- --Brendan

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2002\08\02@214455 by mark

flavicon
face
On 2 Aug 2002 at 22:08, Alexandre Souza wrote:

>         I DO agree with you. I've tried AVR and sold/given ALL my pic
> devices and equipment. Now I'm more than happy with AVR, and I'll
> never look back to PIC (Problematic Idiot Controller) hehehe
>

That's VERY funny!  ROTFLOL :-)))))


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2002\08\03@004300 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sat, Aug 03, 2002 at 03:41:03AM +0300, Mike Singer wrote:
>  I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
> versus others, though I do realize I should.
>
>  By "bad habits" for beginners I mean not using particulaly
> 12XXX or 16XXX. "Bad habits" is to start learning something
> that is a kind of garbage, especially for educational purposes.
>  I know you disagree with me, but it can't change my position:
> 12-16XXX are garbage from the beginner's point of veiw to
> start with.

Um, why exactly do you think that?

>  If a beginner keeps in mind he ever would use <20 pin chips
> he definitely should turn to AVR line. If not - then 18XXXX still
> is a good choice. If he seems to feel a lack of tools or supply
> for 18XXXX let him (beginner) go to AVR.

And why do you think that it's helpful to a novice to switch architectures
in midstream?

>  Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX!

Not only the supply of actual parts, but in addition a lack of tools and
information to get started.

> _SUPPLY_ IT, piclisters!!! Do not ask what PICList can do
> for you. Ask yourselves what can you do for PICList.
>  As for me, It is a deep MARASMUS

Interesting word. I had to go look it up...

> to stick from the start (for
> beginner) with bank switching, too poor command set, port
> latching etc when there is 18XXXX or AVR on the market for
> lower prices without those stupid drawbacks.
>  I don't see why 18XXXX is much complex then 12-16XXX to
> start with.

Please compare development tools.

> Many beginners choosed "complex" AVR and are happy with it, as you see.

Actually what I've seen is many complaints about lack of availability.

>  The fact that there still exist market for 12-16XXX has no relation
> to beginner.

???? Please rephrase.

>  For non beginner: Nobody would agree to pay more for a job
> for just using PICs in a project. With 12-16XXX one can't reach
> productivity and sometime quality as with AVR. So one is to
> admit to lower wages.

I'll add a "in your opinion" to the end of this.

BAJ

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2002\08\03@025411 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Olin Lathrop [SMTP:KILLspamolin_piclistKILLspamspamEMBEDINC.COM]
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:49 PM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC]: selecting your first
>
> > Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> > automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
> >
> > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
>
> I hope it doesn't.  CBLOCK implies absolute mode, which should be scorned
> by
> all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.
>
I guess I must be one of those as I've never even heard that term before!

Regards

Mike

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2002\08\03@030233 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> > PS: What I'm doing by these postings translated from russian
> > sounds like (15 years ago): "Agitate for communism". :-)

> "Do not ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for
> your country"

That sounds more like "We will go to the Moon!"  :-)


       RM

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2002\08\03@042548 by Mike Singer

picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
.
.
> >  Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX!
>
> Not only the supply of actual parts, but in addition a lack
> of tools and information to get started.
>
> > _SUPPLY_ IT, piclisters!!! Do not ask what PICList can do
.
.
Sorry, it was too late, almost morning and I accidentally
confused "SUPPORT" word  with "SUPPLY" word when
constracting the posting. Though the idea is interesting, hmm.
Thanks.

Mike.

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2002\08\03@042615 by Mike Singer

picon face
Alexandre Souza, replying to my posting, wrote:
.
.
> and I'll never look back to PIC (Problematic Idiot Controller) hehehe
.
.
Please, conduct yourself properly.

Mike.

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2002\08\03@085629 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
> versus others, though I do realize I should.

So we finally found a point of agreement after all.

<semi-coherent rant snipped>


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2002\08\03@085814 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.
> >
> I guess I must be one of those as I've never even heard that term before!

I probably misspelled it horribly.  I just looked it up, and it should be
"trilobite".  You can google from there.  Kinda funny I guess.  Too bad I
couldn't take credit for a deliberate joke.  I guess computer knurds should
discuss archeology without a hard reset.


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2002\08\03@085829 by Jinx

face picon face
> >  Do not complain of a lack of supply for 18XXXX!
>
> Not only the supply of actual parts, but in addition a lack of
> tools and information to get started.

I think non-availability is a valid complaint. If someone asked
me today what I'd suggest for a beginner's micro I'd say PIC
and then suggest that the easiest one to get hold of here (ie
available at retail and trade level at a reasonable price in small
numbers) is the F628 or F84. A beginner is not likely to want to
commit to a tube lot of 18F parts

However I would also suggest the AVR 2313 or 8515 for the
same availability reasons

> >  The fact that there still exist market for 12-16XXX has no relation
> > to beginner.
>
> ???? Please rephrase.

I think he meant just because the 12-16XXX are popular and freely
available that's no reason to begin with them

> >  For non beginner: Nobody would agree to pay more for a job
> > for just using PICs in a project. With 12-16XXX one can't reach
> > productivity and sometime quality as with AVR. So one is to
> > admit to lower wages.

That's in some respect subjective. You could also say the same
about cars. Why would anyone pay for a Rolls Royce when a
Fiat Bambino gets you from A to B as well (extreme example
and not comparing any particular micro to a RR or Bambino)

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2002\08\03@095446 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Olin Lathrop [SMTP:RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamspamEMBEDINC.COM]
> > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:49 PM
> > To:   EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > Subject:      Re: [PIC]: selecting your first
> >
> > > Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> > > automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
> > >
> > > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
> >
> > I hope it doesn't.  CBLOCK implies absolute mode, which should be scorned
> > by
> > all beings more intelligent than the average trilobyte.
> >
> I guess I must be one of those as I've never even heard that term before!

Mike,

It's simple. You should fess up to the fact that you're an idiot. Everyone
knows that a trilobyte is a trillion bytes, just like a megabyte is
million bytes. The average trilobyte is of course 127.5. It's only when
you're smarter than 127.5 that you can escape the horrors of absolutes.
Until then you must mingle with the minion.

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2002\08\03@113106 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> > I can't stop myself discussing the question of choice of 18
> > versus others, though I do realize I should.

> So we finally found a point of agreement after all.
> <semi-coherent rant snipped>

As with others who you have found unintelligible of late, the main "problem"
is probably the fact that English (or even American) is not the originator's
mother tongue. I suspect that if you replied in Russian your response would
be entirely incoherent.
What he was saying seemed coherent enough to follow his main points.
Mike is making some arguably valid points which require a value judgement -
what one thinks of the argument will vary with, amomgst other things, what
sort of philosophy you were mother-ducked (ie mentally imprinted) with. (I
come from a SC/MP, F8, 6800 mother-ducking and am thereby, arguably,
crippled for life)(The 6809 should be Canonised).

Lets try and translate Mike's message, with a little licence added.

- The programming model of the 14 & 16 series PICs is difficult for a
beginner to come to grips with (because the processor is based on a zillion
year old NMOS design and the manufacturers have not chosen to improve these
versions in the way that others, such as Ubicom, have).

- Starting one's education with something that inflicts brain damage on the
student may be good for the soul but damaging to the education. There are
many many other processors with a much cleaner architecture that allows the
student to focus on the programming task per se rather than the anomalies of
the hardware.

- Microchip do make a line of processors (the 18xxx series) that are more
"normal" but the development support is poor compared with that available
for alternatives,.such as the AVR.

- JFK had the right idea

- The affects of Protein & Calorie deficiency on children *  are nothing
compared to the damage inflicted on a nubile brain by bank switching,
paging, arcane commands, quaint port behaviour and more. Use of the 18xxx
series or the AVR remedies these shortcomings. (* - hey - how would YOU
translate Marasmus :-)  ? )

- People beginning with the AVR or even the PIC18xxx are generally found to
be happy chappies. The notional complexity increase over the PIC 14/16 core
seems to be more than compensated for by the cleaner design.

- The 14/16 series PICs do have a place in the market due to the efficient
code they produce in the hands of experts - this fact has little bearing on
their appropriateness for  beginners.

- But the AVR is better anyway. So there :-)

_________________________

Seemed intelligible enough to me.
:-)
E&OE
Remember, I'm just the translator (be it ever so poor a job).  No guarantee
that these are my opinions (or Mike's for that matter:-)).

Just as well we didn't have to interpret Kwashiorkor (like Marasmus but
different).




               RM

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2002\08\04@013847 by Mike Singer

picon face
Hi, Jinx.
From 148g3.pdf -  Microchip Product Line:
"Future" section.

PIC18F1220#  18-Lead PDIP
PIC18F1320#  18-Lead PDIP

These 18-Lead chips will be available when a  beginner
became non-beginner. There is a rumor that 18F in
smaller packages will also be available.
It takes not so much time to deliver new 18F to Australia:
For clippers such as  "Cutty Sark" or "Fermopila" it takes
usualy about two months.

  Mike.

Jinx wrote:
>
> > >  The fact that there still exist market for 12-16XXX has
> > > no relation to beginner.
> >
> > ???? Please rephrase.
>
> I think he meant just because the 12-16XXX are popular and freely
> available that's no reason to begin with them
>

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2002\08\04@034110 by Mike Singer

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
.
.
> - The affects of Protein & Calorie deficiency on children *
> are nothing compared to the damage inflicted on a nubile
> brain by bank switching, paging, arcane commands,
> quaint port behaviour and more. Use of the 18xxx series
> or the AVR remedies these shortcomings. (* - hey - how
> would YOU translate Marasmus :-)  ? )
.
.
Hi, Russell,
Can't translate "marasm". That was a popular common
word at MIPT where I was educated from 1979 to 1985
after school. It was last Breszhnev's times of "developed
socialism". Nothing in economical and political life had
logical grounds. We used to use "marasm" word to label
anything, that couldn't be logically based.
Nothing changed under the Sun: was a dissident a little
against socialist marasm, now I am one against 12-16.

  Mike.
----------------------------------------------------
PS.  MIPT is similar to MIT butt better. :-)
(Adding "in my opinion" of course according to
Byron A Jeff's recommendations)

PS.PS. I do not agitate for AVR or MSP430,
I do it for 18XXXX.

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2002\08\04@135035 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Mike Singer wrote:

> Hi, Jinx.
> From 148g3.pdf -  Microchip Product Line:
>"Future" section.
>
>PIC18F1220#  18-Lead PDIP
>PIC18F1320#  18-Lead PDIP
>
> These 18-Lead chips will be available when a  beginner
>became non-beginner. There is a rumor that 18F in
>smaller packages will also be available.
> It takes not so much time to deliver new 18F to Australia:
>For clippers such as  "Cutty Sark" or "Fermopila" it takes
>usualy about two months.

Why do I get the feeling about schoolbooks *slightly* outdated in your
parts ?

Peter

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2002\08\04@140719 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Re: marasm

The word is French afaik. There is a large amount of dictionary-related
resources here:

http://www.supralingua.com/Internet/internet.html

The definition of marasm is at:

http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=0&Keyword=marasm&goquery=Find+it%21&Language=ENG&NLD=1&FRA=1&DEU=1&ITA=1&ESP=1&v=80937203

(cut & paste)


Quoted:

Marasmus (n.)
                            n.

                            1. A wasting of flesh without fever or
                            apparent disease; a kind of consumption;
                            atrophy; phthisis.

Peter

The current meaning of the word seems to be unrelated to physiology. Don't
ask me what phthisis is. Or how you pronounce it in English.

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2002\08\04@142434 by Alexandre Souza

flavicon
face
> Re: marasm
> The word is French afaik. There is a large amount of
> Quoted:
> Marasmus (n.)
>                              1. A wasting of flesh without fever or
>                              apparent disease; a kind of consumption;
>                              atrophy; phthisis.
> The current meaning of the word seems to be unrelated to physiology.
> Don't ask me what phthisis is. Or how you pronounce it in English.

       In portuguese, "marasmo" (what seems to be the nearest translation
to marasm) is something like a state of boredom. Eg: Nothing happens,
you are sitted in a place, and no changes, no fun, no one to talk.
This is "marasmo". In portuguese we say "que marasmo...", loosely
translated to "what a marasm".

       Hope it helps

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2002\08\04@192617 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 01:19:05PM +1000, Tony Nixon wrote:
> > Byron A Jeff wrote:
> > > Maybe it may be worth thinking about writing a piece of Perl that will
> > > automate those conversions. Let's start generating another list:
> > >
> > > * Change the CBLOCK (I hope the code uses a CBLOCK!) from 0x1c to 0x20
> > > * Turn off the comparitors
> > > * Change the include file
> > > * Change the processor in the LIST/device line
> > > * Update the config line.
> >
> > Done!
> >
> > Windows though :-)
> >
> > http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/projects/f62xconv.zip
>
> Does yours do anything that not listed above?

Changes CBLOCK
Changes #Include directive
Changes LIST directive
Updates the CONFIG
One problem here is that the 16F628 does not have RC mode, so if this is
found to be enabled in the 16X8X then a message is issued above to the
16F62x CONFIG directive.

Turns OFF Comparators
A problem here is that the software can not analyse the source code.
Therefore it places the code to disable the comparators at the start of
the code and places a commented message there to describe what is
happening. It also generates a compiler error to highlight the need to
insert this code.

EEPROM read/writes are different RAM pages.
Again the program doesn't analyse the flow of the code, so whereever it
finds EEADR or EEDATA in the code it forces a compiler error to get the
code writer to check the RAM page bits.


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Tony

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2002\08\04@230716 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:25:07AM +1000, Tony Nixon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Cool.

Any chance that you might consider Open Sourcing it so that Scott, Ralf, myself
and the other gputils folks can include it in the package?

BAJ

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2002\08\04@233312 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
> Cool.
>
> Any chance that you might consider Open Sourcing it so that Scott, Ralf, myself
> and the other gputils folks can include it in the package?

No laughing at it. I wrote it in a hurry.

Here's the Windows source for the project It's in Delphi Pascal though
not that silly "C" stuff. ;-)

http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/projects/cnvsrce.zip

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2002\08\04@235339 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 01:32:34PM +1000, Tony Nixon wrote:
> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >
> > Cool.
> >
> > Any chance that you might consider Open Sourcing it so that Scott, Ralf, myself
> > and the other gputils folks can include it in the package?
>
> No laughing at it. I wrote it in a hurry.
>
> Here's the Windows source for the project It's in Delphi Pascal though
> not that silly "C" stuff. ;-)
>
> http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/projects/cnvsrce.zip

Thanks for the quick response. It'll probably be easiest to recode in Perl.

BAJ

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2002\08\05@033153 by dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hello,

did I understand correctly: trilobyte is a bundle of 8 trilobites? Or only
three as the name says ;-)

Imre

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\06@163617 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >
> > Cool.
> >
> > Any chance that you might consider Open Sourcing it so that
> > Scott, Ralf, myself and the other gputils folks can include it in
> > the package?
>
> No laughing at it. I wrote it in a hurry.
>
> Here's the Windows source for the project It's in Delphi Pascal
> though not that silly "C" stuff. ;-)

Then a Linux port should be downright simple.  http://www.borland.com/kylix

- --Brendan

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