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'[PIC]: question about 18F452'
2002\08\29@054711 by Roman Black

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Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never
used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions;

1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?
I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware,
but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the
18F parts.

2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
in having the extra processing power especially once the
18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o)
-Roman

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2002\08\29@061007 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
> and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?
> I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware,
> but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the
> 18F parts.

Dunno about 2.3, but I installed 3.00 (at least that is what I see
flashing on my screen when MPLAB contacts the PS+), and with that all
the 18F's are listed and I programmed at least one (then I switched to
my own programmer now that it is working for 18f's).

> 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
> the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
> suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
> in having the extra processing power especially once the
> 18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

I guess you can achieve better code density and speed by using the
specific instructions, for instance conditional branch instead of
skip+goto. But even using them as 16f's (ignore the extra instructions)
I find the 18f's good value for money (more code, more data, more
peripherals, 10 MIPS from a 10 MHz xtal with the *4 PLL).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\29@061422 by Carlos Ojea

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>2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
>the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
>suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
>in having the extra processing power especially once the
>18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

A high level language do a lot of things behind your back,
is less efficient, waste a lot of program memory, I also
found some compiler bugs...
I think mpasm is more suitable to 18F than a C compiler.


Regards,
Carlos

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2002\08\29@070547 by Dave Dilatush

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Roman wrote...

>2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
>the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
>suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
>in having the extra processing power especially once the
>18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

Well worth the small effort, in my opinion.

It may well be that the 18F series were intended for larger
projects and to be more compiler-friendly; but I'm finding the
18F is more assembler-friendly as well: no more ROM paging; three
independent FSR's/INDF's; auto increment/decrement available on
the FSR's; hardware multiply; table lookups in hardware;
common-sense branch instructions; and lots more RAM.

I'm well along with my first big 18F452 project, and my
impression is it's much, MUCH easier to work with than the PIC16
parts I've been used to.

Most of what I do is low-volume, high-ticket stuff in which
development cost ends up being a significant part of the product
piece cost; and I expect the 18F will give me big savings.  Every
programming task just seems a lot more straightforward than with
the 16's- which in my mind makes them more hobbyist-friendly,
too.

>Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o)

Get Microchip's ICD2.  It works nice, and if it ever does stop
working, the round package allows it to do double-duty as a
hockey puck.

DD

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2002\08\29@072611 by =?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E1bio_Pereira?=

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Roman:

I don't want to disapoint you but first of all, the 8 pin 18F devices are
out of schedule since a couple of months now. I was looking for the 18 pin
devices too (18F1230 and 1330 if I'm not wrong), but these devices
disapeared from the site too, what makes me think they aren't going to be
produced anymore ... :-(

1- If your hardware didn't work with 18F, know that any freeware programmer
supported by IC-PROG will. Bonny Gjizen done a good work to support these
chips. I use it with a JDM programmer and programmed many 18F devices
(mainly 452 and 252 devices). We are also finishing support to the "new"
12F675 too.

2- Learning the instruction set is always worth (hehe). Even if you use a
high level language ( I use PCWH from CCS) you will always have to take a
look at the code and maybe do some fine tunning by yourself. I also needed
to include some ASM in the source code so, knowing the instruction set is a
MUST.

3- I disagree with you about the use in more complex projects ... With that
price strategy, it looks like Mchip is trying to take the 16F876 and 877
place's with the 18F252 and 452, as they cost almost the same and the 18F
have MANY more functions (5 times more RAM, 2 times more ROM, 4 timers,
etc).

Best regards,

Fabio Pereira
JOINVILLE - SC - BRASIL


{Original Message removed}

2002\08\29@080426 by Bob Ammerman

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> Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never
> used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions;
>
> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
> and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?
> I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware,
> but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the
> 18F parts.

I think you need firmware v3.0 for the PS+

> 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
> the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
> suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
> in having the extra processing power especially once the
> 18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

Of course its worth learning!

btw: mChip decommitted the 8 pin 18F chips, IIRC.

> Any other tips etc are appreciated. :o)
> -Roman

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\08\29@081718 by Olin Lathrop

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> I don't want to disapoint you but first of all, the 8 pin 18F devices are
> out of schedule since a couple of months now. I was looking for the 18 pin
> devices too (18F1230 and 1330 if I'm not wrong), but these devices
> disapeared from the site too, what makes me think they aren't going to be
> produced anymore ... :-(

Right, they were officially cancelled about 6 months ago if I remember
right.


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2002\08\29@113204 by Jennifer L. Gatza

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> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
> and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?
> I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware,
> but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the
> 18F parts.

In addition to needing f/w ver. 3.0 (as I've seen many have already
responded), I believe you also need MPLAB 5.62+.

Look at the readme files for MPLAB and PICSTART Plus.  18F compatibility
should be in the list of revisions.

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2002\08\29@113411 by John Hansen

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At 07:42 PM 8/29/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi, I got some PIC 18F452's today, and having never
>used the 18 series parts I have a couple of questions;
>
>1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
>and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?
>I'm just about to install the PicStart 2.3 firmware,
>but the help file that comes with it is sketchy on the
>18F parts.

No, you need to upgrade to version 3.  I'm not sure whether mplab 5.3 will
work or not, but I believe the answer is no.  When I upgraded my PicStart,
my MPLAB (I can't remember what version I was on at that point, but I think
5.4) would not work.  I had to download a new mplab to restore
functionality.  You don't need to upgrade to beta 6.0 however, the 5.7 they
have on the website will work fine.


>2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set? I know
>the main use of these chips is for larger projects which
>suit a higher level language, but i'm more interested
>in having the extra processing power especially once the
>18 and 8 pin 18F chips are obtainable.

Yes, it is.  At the master's this year, it was pretty clear to me that
microchip was forging on with the 18 series and dsPIC (thought that's still
a long time coming).  Anyway, I expect the price of the 18 series to
continue to fall and I expect to be using it more and more for plain
vanilla projects.

John Hansen

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2002\08\29@122828 by Roman Black

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Thank you Wouter Carlos Dave Fabio and John for
the 18F452 help. :o)

I suspected that PSP 3.0 might be needed and that
I might have to get the new MPLAB too. That's a pain
since Microchip.com crashes my browser constantly
now. Will check the new Microchip CD I just got from
the agent and see if the downloads are on that.

Bummer about the 8 pin 18F chip. Guess I should have
paid attention when it was being discussed earlier
on the list!

Thanks again guys for the help, i'm looking forward to
some increased processing power.
-Roman

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2002\08\29@142605 by Mike Mansheim

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> 1. Does anyone know if PicStart Plus with 2.3 firmware
> and MPLAB 5.3 will program the 18F452?

Don't know about the picstart, but I think you need MPLAB 5.62 to
recognize the F parts.  A "dot release" on 5.5 worked also, but that
seems unnecessary since 5.62 is available.  This is based on getting
a promate working, but I think you still need to have MPLAB aware of
the part.

> 2. Is it worth learning the 18F instruction set?

I mentioned this in another post a while ago, but you'll want to learn
enough to be aware of differences such as DECF now affects the carry
flag, but didn't on the 16 series - means you can't necessarily just
drop code in.

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2002\08\29@145413 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I suspected that PSP 3.0 might be needed and that
> I might have to get the new MPLAB too. That's a pain
> since Microchip.com crashes my browser constantly
> now.

At the moment (be quick, uChip often changes the locations :(
www.microchip.com/download/tools/picmicro/devenv/v570/mp57000full
.zip

> Bummer about the 8 pin 18F chip. Guess I should have
> paid attention when it was being discussed earlier
> on the list!

But the 12f629/675 (much like the 16f627 but with 8 pins) look cool!

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\30@084948 by Clayton Mellina

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       I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll would
suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452.  I have been programming pic's for about
3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a 16F628 working.
I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to
better pic's, but which one?  I know that the 18F452 is better etc., but I
am wondering which would be better for my level of experience.
Thanks!

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2002\08\30@094021 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452.  I have been programming
> pic's for about
> 3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a
> 16F628 working.
> I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to
> better pic's, but which one?  I know that the 18F452 is
> better etc., but I
> am wondering which would be better for my level of experience.

IMHO only negative reasons would vote for the 16f877:
- 18f not available from your supplier
- tools (compiler, programmer) can not handle 18f
- you need someone to hold your hand, and that someone has never seen an
18f yet

Otherwise the 18f452 would be the better choice.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\30@121143 by Olin Lathrop

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>         I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll
would
> suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452.

Definitely the 18F452 for hobby projects.

It does more, runs faster, is easier to program, an will probably be more
compatible with future Microchip innovations.  The only drawbacks are that
it costs slightly more in low volumes (costs less in high volumes, so you
can see where this is heading) and there is less stuff out there on the web
about it because it is newer.


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2002\08\30@154947 by Robert Shanks

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>> suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452.

Another question:  Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload ) like the  16F877?

- Robert Shanks

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2002\08\30@160631 by Olin Lathrop

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> Another question:  Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload )
> like the  16F877?

This question is clearly answered in a number of obvious places, like the
line card and the data sheet.


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2002\08\30@164408 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Another question:  Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload )

Yes

> like the  16F877?

Not exactly in the same way, sel-writing works more like on the 16f87xA
parts.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\08\30@170936 by Dave Dilatush

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Clayton Mellina wrote...

>        I have been reading these posts and I am wondering what ya'll would
>suggest: the 16F877 or the 18F452.  I have been programming pic's for about
>3 months and have a small autonomous robot controlled by a 16F628 working.
>I am wondering what to do next it is obvious that I need to move on to
>better pic's, but which one?  I know that the 18F452 is better etc., but I
>am wondering which would be better for my level of experience.

I'd certainly recommend the 18F parts.  The instruction set
enhancements make them easier to write code for, not harder.

DD

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2002\08\30@172441 by Dipperstein, Michael

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> From: Olin Lathrop [RemoveMEolin_piclistspamTakeThisOuTEMBEDINC.COM]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:04 PM
>
> > Another question:  Can the 18F452 self-program ( bootload )
> > like the  16F877?
>
> This question is clearly answered in a number of obvious
> places, like the
> line card and the data sheet.

I don't think the question is so clearly answered.

Can the 18F452 self-program?  YES

Like the 16F877? NO

The 16F877 could read/write/erase individual instruction memory locations.  The
18F452 can read one byte, write an eight byte block, and erase a 64 byte block.
There is also an errata that describes a data corruption condition that can
occur if interrupts happen during a table write.

-Mike

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