Post by thread:[PIC]: give peace a chance...

I hope nobody minds me posting this under [PIC] but that's where it started. :o) A mailing list or forum is a bit like a living entity and this one seems is a little sick lately. One of the things that attracted me to PICs and the Piclist was the quality and friendliness of the help provided to PIC beginners. :o) The problem is that a list can evolve and change, as new members come they "learn" the flavour of the list and their posts reflect and continue that flavour. The flavour seems to be getting a fraction sour guys. Of course nobody is really in the wrong here, because by definition beginners don't really know what questions to ask, and sometimes don't have a clue, and of course experts giving their help for free shouldn't be taken for granted. BUT the flavour propagates and can even degenerate. It can also be lifted. Recently there has been a lot of attitude and criticism, and the result seems to be heading towards a new "norm" where criticism, often unpleasant criticism seems to be becoming as common as help. I'm thinking that a little more humour, a few more smiley faces, :o) and avoiding posting *anything* which is a personal criticism might help lift the list a little. If someone needs to be corrected, please do it in a friendly manner as a *correction* of an error, NOT a *criticism* of person or behaviour. If the majority of posts are of a friendly helping nature than newbies will learn that flavour and (hopefully) embrace it. :o) -Roman Tim Webb wrote: > > Olin, > > I am not trying to upset you, but I do want to provide you with some feedback about your behavior on this site. > We do appreciate your help, but in the future, if you feel that you have to be a jerk and insult others, please don't even bother to respond. <snip> -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

and I know some guys that specialise in fingers n toes with bolt cutters...... ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > [PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of rad0 > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 9:39 PM > To: .....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [PIC]: give peace a chance... > > > yeah we could do that... > > but we could also hire a team of men to hunt down the > non friendlies, sneak up on them, and sledge hammer > their skulls... > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 05:38 AM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >yeah we could do that... > >but we could also hire a team of men to hunt down the >non friendlies, sneak up on them, and sledge hammer >their skulls... I favor a massive and violent pre-emptive strike on those who *might* say something rude. To keep the peace, of course. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" @spam@speffKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

>but we could also hire a team of men to hunt down the >non friendlies, sneak up on them, and sledge hammer >their skulls... >I favor a massive and violent pre-emptive strike on those who *might* say >something rude. To keep the peace, of course. I guess Olin had better stay out of dark alleys while you guys are around. ;-) Russel has a point, new people are attracted to a forum if they are welcomed. I tend to try to answer questions I think are fairly basic, and try to do it in a nonthreatening way. There is no use in pointing out that somebody else is an idiot, when I make so many idiotic mistakes myself. I wonder if this should have been [ADMIN]: ? -- Lawrence Lile Spehro Pefhany <RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTINTERLOG.COM> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> 02/19/2003 07:02 AM Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [PIC]: give peace a chance... At 05:38 AM 2/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >yeah we could do that... > >but we could also hire a team of men to hunt down the >non friendlies, sneak up on them, and sledge hammer >their skulls... I favor a massive and violent pre-emptive strike on those who *might* say something rude. To keep the peace, of course. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTinterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Russel has a point, new people are attracted to a forum if they are > welcomed. What? Who me? Innocent I say! :-) Roman started this. I've said nothing on this thread so far. But perhaps you are referring to recent prior comments I made, in which case I'd have to plead guilty. I agree with the sentiment anyway. Of late I occasionally send soothing offlist messages to newer members who have been somewhat savaged by the more enthusiastic putters-of-right-to-wrong-ers (maybe that was backwards :-) ) (maybe not). Head on confrontation with those who abuse the new and bewildered, whatever their intentions, leads to more shouting and arm waving and further disturbs the neophites. Alas. Now where do I find those boltcutters? > I tend to try to answer questions I think are fairly basic, and > try to do it in a nonthreatening way. There is no use in pointing out > that somebody else is an idiot, when I make so many idiotic mistakes > myself. This argument doesn't work if the person pointing out their problems is perfect, or feels that they are. Unfortunately when one is on the delivering end of a "mild corection" ("You blithering idiot, ...") it can be hard to see how painful it can feel to the recipient. Reprimands delivered in public often have added weight. Even this entirely general, and obviously non targetted set of comments of mine :-) could be slightly annoying and painful and feel like directed personal criticism to some few list members. (((If not I'm losing my touch. :-) ))) Russell McMahon -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu>

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2003\02\20\013256a Olin (and some others) contribution to the list far exceeds the mildly grumpy responses they takes the time to give. If you don't like it: ANSWER BEFORE THEY DO. And if the newbies need to grow some skin, the mild grumping they get here will help them in the real world. Having said all that, the quality of mercy is not strained. If one person on the list says something that you think is rude, how about responding with "Hey, don't pay any attention to him, he just tends to be grumpy" Or is it better to issue orders to other list members on the list to "contribute to this site by helping others in a polite way or you keep your mouth shut."? People who feel they can order their EQUALs on the list around, should learn to contact the admins with their concerns or they will be removed from the list themselves. --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu>

James ******* OFFLIST *********** > And if the newbies need to grow some skin, the mild grumping they get here > will help them in the real world. I think it's been getting a wee bit rough of late. The accumulative affect to a new comer of several people playing tag-wrestling on their case can be more daunting than we of thicker skin may realise. Onlist critiquing of others critiquing tends to be counterproductive (but can have its place). I've taken to sending occasional advice and "there, there, never mind ..." messages offlist. Olin is, of course, superb. But I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end if I didn't know him. One newcomer turned up once, asked a question, had quite a barrage of criticisms and hasn't been back since. A little digging showed that they also happen to be a frequenter (and recommender to other troubled teens) of teen depression assistance sites. (I emailed them offlist but got no response.) > Having said all that, the quality of mercy is not strained. If one person on > the list says something that you think is rude, how about responding with > "Hey, don't pay any attention to him, he just tends to be grumpy" I think we would probably benefit by swinging the instructional emphasis just a wee bit towards helpful and away from directive. Roman's suggestions were about right I think. Russell -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu>

Just from a newbie perspective, I totally have experienced the battering by a few (doesn't really matter who). From MY view, yes, it is a bit discouraging at times, and it can even be insulting - but I always remind myself that help is free, and you can't have everything good in life without sacrificing a bit. So most, if not all, of the time, it's just something I disregard and continue to work on the problem. The point where it really gets to me though, is when I have an issue that I have posted, and instead I get mauled alive about a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT side issue other than my core problem. It's discouraging because after a while, one tends to get frustrated with trying potential solutions over and over again... and then when someone comes along and badgers you about something completely irrelevant to my problem (lets say my commenting style just for example), it is very discouraging because not only am I being attacked for my main problem, but also other problems which aren't really tied to my main problem. Sure, those little things matter, and I would be MORE than willing to address those issues; but not while I have a main issue at hand. It would be so much more profitable to me as a newbie if I got my main issue out of the way and working, which then makes room for me to improve upon the little bad habits that I have. I don't know about other newbies, but this is something that I feel goes on quite a bit... to myself and others. Maybe I am inviting it, maybe I'm not... just my 2 cents. Quoting Russell McMahon <spamBeGoneapptechSTOPspamEraseMEPARADISE.NET.NZ>: {Quote hidden}> James > > ******* OFFLIST *********** > > > > And if the newbies need to grow some skin, the mild grumping they get here > > will help them in the real world. > > I think it's been getting a wee bit rough of late. The accumulative affect > to a new comer of several people playing tag-wrestling on their case can be > more daunting than we of thicker skin may realise. > > Onlist critiquing of others critiquing tends to be counterproductive (but > can > have its place). I've taken to sending occasional advice and "there, there, > never mind ..." messages offlist. Olin is, of course, superb. But I wouldn't > like to be on the receiving end if I didn't know him. > > One newcomer turned up once, asked a question, had quite a barrage of > criticisms and hasn't been back since. A little digging showed that they > also happen to be a frequenter (and recommender to other troubled teens) of > teen depression assistance sites. (I emailed them offlist but got no > response.) > > > Having said all that, the quality of mercy is not strained. If one person > on > > the list says something that you think is rude, how about responding with > > "Hey, don't pay any attention to him, he just tends to be grumpy" > > I think we would probably benefit by swinging the instructional emphasis > just a wee bit towards helpful and away from directive. Roman's suggestions > were about right I think. > > > > > Russell > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu > ---------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.mywaterloo.ca -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu>

> The point where it really gets to me though, is when I > have an issue that I have posted, and instead I get mauled alive about a > COMPLETELY DIFFERENT side issue other than my core problem. It's discouraging > because after a while, one tends to get frustrated with trying potential > solutions over and over again... and then when someone comes along and badgers > you about something completely irrelevant to my problem (lets say my > commenting style just for example), it is very discouraging because not only > am I being attacked for my main problem, but also other problems which aren't > really tied to my main problem. Sure, those little things matter, and I would > be MORE than willing to address those issues; but not while I have a main > issue at hand. It would be so much more profitable to me as a newbie if I got > my main issue out of the way and working, which then makes room for me to > improve upon the little bad habits that I have. I don't know about other > newbies, but this is something that I feel goes on quite a bit... to myself > and others. Maybe I am inviting it, maybe I'm not... just my 2 cents. Jai, You still have not got it. The best person that can debug your code is yourself. I could not comment better than Olin, but believe him, commenting your code is the best way to help you debug your code. The other way is for someone to do a code-review, but that "someone" would need a well-commented code to start with. When I was a computer lab-tutor in the university, I see so many students running and running their ill-conceived code again and again, hoping the machine can solve their error-in-thought. Nothing could be worse, they lost sleep, got anxious, lost-their-cool and at the end loosing the most important tool: a clear-mind. But it is a useful exercise, those who cannot break their habbit would fail the class and save them future agony. Hard-working admin, I think de-linking the list from google would help a lot, but is it possible? It will make the list harder to find, making it too easy is one of the cause. Your guess is as good as mine how this might help. Ling SM -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu>