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'[PIC]: Yes this really is a PIC question'
2002\09\13@173706 by llile

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I am using the new 16F676.  This is a neat little part, cheap as dirt,
with lots of analog inputs, and  a lot of other cool features.

One item it has is an internal RC oscillator, just like the old 12C508
that I have specified millions of.  (literally)  "FINE!" I sez to myself,
"THOSE ARE REALLY EASY TO USE"  (famous last words).

Now on the old 12C508, the calibration word for the oscillator calibration
(OSCCAL) is located int he last byte of program memory, and appears in the
W register at startup.  You mov it into the OSCCAL register, and the
oscillator is calibrated.

You can't erase the oscillator calibration in the old OTP 12C508, so
programming the part generates an warning (Calibraiton memory already
programed), and you are off and running.

Flash forward to 2002.  The 16F676 is a Flash part.  (pun intended)
Programming it involves erasing it first, then dumping in the program.  In
development I can just read the part, write down the OSCCAL word, then
scratch it into my program at the last minute.  But in production, that's
another thing entirely.  How do they get this calibration word + program
into a production part without erasing the calibration word first?

--Lawrence

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2002\09\13@182205 by Olin Lathrop

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> I am using the new 16F676.

What is that?  I've never heard of it and can't find it on my line card
either.


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2002\09\13@185930 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 06:22 PM 9/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > I am using the new 16F676.
>
>What is that?  I've never heard of it and can't find it on my line card
>either.

http://www.microchip.com/download/lit/pline/picmicro/families/16f6xx/40039a.pdf

14 pins, 10 bit A/D, comparator, band gap reference, 1K words ROM, EEPROM,
BOR.

NO UART, SPI, I2C, and only timer 0 and 1 (no capture/compare), looks like.


For Lawrence's question... the PROMATE probably reads first then programs--
see Note 1:

"Microchip Development Tools maintain all calibration
bits to factory settings."


Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\09\13@203124 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:35 PM 9/13/02 -0500, EraseMEllilespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTSALTONUSA.COM wrote:
>I am using the new 16F676.  This is a neat little part, cheap as dirt,
>with lots of analog inputs, and  a lot of other cool features.
>
>Flash forward to 2002.  The 16F676 is a Flash part.  (pun intended)
>Programming it involves erasing it first, then dumping in the program.  In
>development I can just read the part, write down the OSCCAL word, then
>scratch it into my program at the last minute.  But in production, that's
>another thing entirely.  How do they get this calibration word + program
>into a production part without erasing the calibration word first?

You don't need to worry about it!

Interestingly enough, I spent some time this past week talking with one of
Microchip's software tool authors about something else and that exact
question came up in our discussions.  Here is what he said:

Dwayne -

The calibration bits will be erased when the part is bulk erased per the
data sheet. Our programmers read the calibration bits then reprogram them
during the erase/program cycle. Our programmers won't lose the calibration
information.

Take care,

David

Hope this helps!

dwayne

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Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
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2002\09\14@090428 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 KILLspamllileKILLspamspamSALTONUSA.COM wrote:

>Flash forward to 2002.  The 16F676 is a Flash part.  (pun intended)
>Programming it involves erasing it first, then dumping in the program.  In
>development I can just read the part, write down the OSCCAL word, then
>scratch it into my program at the last minute.  But in production, that's
>another thing entirely.  How do they get this calibration word + program
>into a production part without erasing the calibration word first?

By using an open source programmer where this feature is supported by
default or can be added by writing (scripting) 10 lines or less. This is
related to serialization and other such things (where you write different
code into each chip).

Peter

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2002\09\14@183412 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
www.microchip.com/download/lit/pline/picmicro/families/16f6xx/40039a.
pdf
>
> 14 pins, 10 bit A/D, comparator, band gap reference, 1K words ROM, EEPROM,
> BOR.
>
> NO UART, SPI, I2C, and only timer 0 and 1 (no capture/compare), looks
like.

I found it in the Futures section of the line card on 40.  Did you say you
already have one of these?  If so, is it real production silicon or beta?


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2002\09\15@133011 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > I am using the new 16F676.
>
> What is that?  I've never heard of it and can't find it on my
> line card either.

see

www.microchip.com/1010/pline/picmicro/category/embctrl/8kbytes/de
vices/16f676/index.htm

Listed as 'future product', so I guess we are at the receiving end of a
time warp?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\09\15@155312 by Dwayne Reid

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At 06:32 PM 9/14/02 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>www.microchip.com/download/lit/pline/picmicro/families/16f6xx/40039a.
>pdf
> >
> > 14 pins, 10 bit A/D, comparator, band gap reference, 1K words ROM, EEPROM,
> > BOR.
> >
> > NO UART, SPI, I2C, and only timer 0 and 1 (no capture/compare), looks
>like.
>
>I found it in the Futures section of the line card on 40.  Did you say you
>already have one of these?  If so, is it real production silicon or beta?

I got a rail of 60 pcs 12f675 I/P last week and my disti (Arrow) could have
supplied as many as I wanted.  I don't see the usual beta markings on these
- I'm assuming that means these are the real McCoy and available right
now.  Same specs as above, except 8 pins.

MPLAB 5.72 does not support the 12f67x parts yet but Microchip emailed me a
beta that adds the missing DLLs and updates the MPLAB device list, along
with version 3.00.07 of the PS+ firmware.

I found a few things that seemed unclear in the data sheet but Microchip
tech support answered all my questions in short order and I'll be
delivering my first prototypes with this part in a couple of days.

Side note: I haven't needed to talk to Microchip tech support for several
years now and had forgotten just quick those guys are when it comes to
answering questions.  I'm *seriously* impressed!

dwayne

--
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Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
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2002\09\15@161151 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I got a rail of 60 pcs 12f675 I/P last week and my disti (Arrow) could
have
> supplied as many as I wanted.  I don't see the usual beta markings on
these
> - I'm assuming that means these are the real McCoy and available right
> now.

That's different.  These are listed as current parts on my line card.  You
had originally claimed to have 16F676, which is listed in the Futures
section of the latest line card.  In the past, production parts have usually
not been available until a part was listed in the current parts section of
the line card for at least one cycle.  Having actual parts for something in
the Futures section is unheard of.

> Side note: I haven't needed to talk to Microchip tech support for several
> years now and had forgotten just quick those guys are when it comes to
> answering questions.  I'm *seriously* impressed!

I agree.  Microchip is well in front of the pack in supporting professional
design activity with their parts.  Microchip is definitely the clear winner
in keeping design costs down.  This makes them the no-brainer solution for
all but very high volume designs.  They compete well there too due to broad
product offering and good pricing, but the advantage of lower design costs
is less relevant.


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2002\09\15@195609 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:11 PM 9/15/02 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>You had originally claimed to have 16F676, which is listed in the Futures
>section of the latest line card.  In the past, production parts have usually
>not been available until a part was listed in the current parts section of
>the line card for at least one cycle.  Having actual parts for something in
>the Futures section is unheard of.

Actually, it was Lawrence Lile that said that he is using the 16f676
parts.  I'm assuming that he got them to play with for a future product.

Anyways, the bottom line is that Lawrence doesn't need to worry about
calibration constants so long as he is using Microchip tools and
programmers.  Other programmers may be fine as well.

dwayne

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Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
 .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-
    `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
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2002\09\16@095911 by llile

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face
16F676 is a brand new part, I am getting a sneak preview of some samples.
It is very cheap - sub-$1US, has 14 pins, 12 I/O, internal RC oscillator,
anaolog comparator, 10 bit A/D, 8 A/D input channels, and a generous 1K of
program memory <sarcasm> .  2 timers, brownout, interrupts, and Flash.  It
is sort of a 16C54 on steriods.  Or basically it is like some of the
12C6xx parts scaled up for more I/O.  It packs a lot of I/O into a little
package.

--Lawrence







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09/13/02 05:22 PM
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> I am using the new 16F676.

What is that?  I've never heard of it and can't find it on my line card
either.


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\09\16@100324 by llile

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Spehro wrote:


"Microchip Development Tools maintain all calibration
bits to factory settings."


Hmmm.  That sounds great.  I wonder if Microengineering Labs does the
same?  I often use a Microengineering Labs  EPIC PLUS for ICSP work. Can't
afford the $6 C notes for a Promate.

--Lawrence

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2002\09\16@100537 by llile

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It is supposed to be production in October, with limited samples released
now.


-- Lawrence Lile





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I found it in the Futures section of the line card on 40.  Did you say you
already have one of these?  If so, is it real production silicon or beta?

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2002\09\16@101153 by llile

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face
I agree.  Microchip is well in front of the pack in supporting
professional
design activity with their parts.  Microchip is definitely the clear
winner
in keeping design costs down.  This makes them the no-brainer solution for
all but very high volume designs.  They compete well there too due to
broad
product offering and good pricing, but the advantage of lower design costs
is less relevant.


Olin,

Even very high volume designs get PICs these days.  When you get into
volumes, these guys can get right down in the mud on price.  I put them in
steam irons and toasters, and there isn't much that is higher volume than
that except toys.

Now it is possible I could save a penny or two by using a Samsung
micoprocessor.  However, considering the impossibility of getting any tech
support from Samsung and the like, it's not happening any time soon. OTOH,
Toastmaster engineers have the reputation of being willing to put their
mother in jail for a penny cost reduction, so I am always looking at the
competition.

--Lawrence

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2002\09\16@112730 by Russell McMahon

face
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Sounds excellent.
Now if it only had PWM ! ... :-(
Or has it ?

> 16F676 is a brand new part, I am getting a sneak preview of some samples.
> It is very cheap - sub-$1US, has 14 pins, 12 I/O, internal RC oscillator,
> anaolog comparator, 10 bit A/D, 8 A/D input channels, and a generous 1K of
> program memory <sarcasm> .  2 timers, brownout, interrupts, and Flash.  It
> is sort of a 16C54 on steriods.  Or basically it is like some of the
> 12C6xx parts scaled up for more I/O.  It packs a lot of I/O into a little
> package.

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2002\09\16@134402 by llile

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Nope, No PWM.  It does have a gated Timer1, which is so useful I haven't
figured out what to do with it yet.

Also, Microengineering Labs states that they DO support the internal R/C
oscillator factory calibration.  Unfortunately they DO NOT support the
16F676 yet.
--Lawrence






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Sounds excellent.
Now if it only had PWM ! ... :-(
Or has it ?

> 16F676 is a brand new part, I am getting a sneak preview of some
samples.
> It is very cheap - sub-$1US, has 14 pins, 12 I/O, internal RC
oscillator,
> anaolog comparator, 10 bit A/D, 8 A/D input channels, and a generous 1K
of
> program memory <sarcasm> .  2 timers, brownout, interrupts, and Flash.
It
> is sort of a 16C54 on steriods.  Or basically it is like some of the
> 12C6xx parts scaled up for more I/O.  It packs a lot of I/O into a
little
> package.

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