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'[PIC]: Voltage to bytes conversion'
2003\03\10@135837 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> > You are likely to find life even easier if you use the
> > 16F876, which has a
> > 10 bit A2D converter, and a 5 channel mux for it, or the
> > 16F877 which has
> > the same A2D with an 8 channel mux. If you need higher
> > accuracy then use an
> > external A2D with I2C or SPI interface.
>
> Keep up with the latest developments: there is more flash in 14-bit, for
> instance 12F675, 16F676, 16F818/9. All with A/D, and cheaper than
> 16F87x.

       I doubt very much the dollar or two savings has ANY bearing in the case of
the original poster. OTOH these parts are newer and therefore have less
support, both in the realm of programmers and in the realm of user
experience. I don't think it is yet necessary to abandon the 16F876 or 877.
TTYL

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2003\03\10@140506 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>         I doubt very much the dollar or two savings has ANY
> bearing in the case of
> the original poster. OTOH these parts are newer and therefore
> have less
> support, both in the realm of programmers and in the realm of user
> experience. I don't think it is yet necessary to abandon the
> 16F876 or 877.

I am not sure about what exactly the OP wanted, but it never hurts to
know the possible alternatives. BTW there are more reasons than price
alone to look at non-87x pics, for instance physical size, or running on
an internal oscillator.

And IMHO tools that have not yet caught up with at least the 12F's are
rather slow in doing so, which means that they probably should not be
used in a professional environment ;)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\03\10@143817 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> >         I doubt very much the dollar or two savings has ANY
> > bearing in the case of
> > the original poster. OTOH these parts are newer and therefore
> > have less
> > support, both in the realm of programmers and in the realm of user
> > experience. I don't think it is yet necessary to abandon the
> > 16F876 or 877.
>
> I am not sure about what exactly the OP wanted, but it never hurts to
> know the possible alternatives. BTW there are more reasons than price
> alone to look at non-87x pics, for instance physical size, or running on
> an internal oscillator.
>
> And IMHO tools that have not yet caught up with at least the 12F's are
> rather slow in doing so, which means that they probably should not be
> used in a professional environment ;)

       I understand that, however the original poster is doing this for a school
project IIRC, priorities are vastly different in that realm then in
commercial development (while the internal oscillator is a nice feature I
don't see it as important enough to warrant diving into a newer part).
Personally I would NEVER recommend such new parts to a person just getting
into it, parts that new will surely have "quirks" that haven't yet been
fully discovered by the PIC community. The 87x have been out long enough,
that, IMHO, all the major quirks have been discovered, explained and worked
around.
       People must sometimes realize that when a person is NOT developing for a
commercial product priorities can be VASTLY different, this case is a
perfect example of that.

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2003\03\10@163944 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>         People must sometimes realize that when a person is
> NOT developing for a
> commercial product priorities can be VASTLY different, this case is a
> perfect example of that.

I agree to the above, but for the rest of your argumentation I agree to
disagree ;) And I am not yet aware of any quirks in the 12F675 or
16F676. And none for the 16F81x either, but that one might be too young
to know. And an internal oscillator (particularly a relatively accurate
one like in the 12F's) can make work easier for a newbie because the
crystal and caps can be omitted.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\03\10@183949 by Laura Adamson

picon face
I chose the PIC16c84 because it was the chip that uni had the most
information on, other than that there is no reason for using that particualr
chip.

The voltages will be between 0v and 0.5v.
There will be up to 8 inputs.
I need the outputted byte stream to tell the PC which input source it is
looking at and whether it is high or low, for each of the sources in turn,
running in a loop. E.g. 0011 would mean source 1 is high and 0100 would mean
source 2 is low.

I hope this helps you help me.

Big thank you.




----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dal Wheeler" <spam_OUTdwheelerTakeThisOuTspaminsightek.net>
To: <.....laura_adamson81KILLspamspam@spam@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Voltage to bytes conversion
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:07:12 -0700

Hello,
The list members probably need a little more detail to give a reasonable
answer.  Explain what you mean by multiple small voltage inputs and what
kind of output you need.  Resolution?  Any particular reason for the 16c84
selection?  Are you citing a previous project?

That kind of thing...
-Dal
{Original Message removed}

2003\03\10@185250 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I chose the PIC16c84 because it was the chip that uni had the most
> information on, other than that there is no reason for using that
> particualr chip.

It's really a dinosour you should put behind you.  I don't know who or
what "uni" is, but Microchip has plenty of information about all the PICs
on their web site.

> The voltages will be between 0v and 0.5v.

That's pretty low.  Use an opamp to scale the max valid voltage to 5V.
This will give you impedence buffering at the same time.

> There will be up to 8 inputs.

Take a look at the 18F2320.  It has 10 A/D channels in a 28 pin package.
This is a very new part, and there seem to be some early problems with
this subfamily (some question about running at full speed, I am getting
burned by this right now).  If you don't want to be a test pilot, you will
need a 40 pin part to get 8 channels.  If this is a one off or small
quantity, I recommend the 18F452 because it is a good chip to learn and
will be useful for lots of other projects.  If you want to stick with the
16 family, try the 16F877.

> I need the outputted byte stream to tell the PC which input source it is
> looking at and whether it is high or low, for each of the sources in
> turn, running in a loop. E.g. 0011 would mean source 1 is high and 0100
> would mean source 2 is low.

That's easy.  All you need is a PIC with a UART, which all the ones I
mentioned above have.


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2003\03\10@201635 by Dal Wheeler

flavicon
face
Like others would suggest, maybe you ought to look into something like a
16f877 or 18f452.  These are a bit newer, larger, have adc's and uarts built
in.  There is plenty of documentation out there for these, and many of the
16c84 code examples can be applied to the newer parts.  Another good reason
to use these instead is that you can install a bootloader on them and
simplify your development process.
http://www.microchipc.com/PIC16bootload/  --Google comes up with serveral
variations on this idea --and for the 18f452...

How fast do you need to sample signals (and what are they)?  What kind of
resolution are you looking for?  Explain your output stream to the PC a bit
more.  A better idea of what you want to accomplish will help others help
you.

{Original Message removed}

2003\03\10@205914 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 11:37:48PM +0000, Laura Adamson wrote:
> I chose the PIC16c84 because it was the chip that uni had the most
> information on, other than that there is no reason for using that particualr
> chip.
>

Understood. We have a lot of reasons why you should consider upgrading.
I've summarized them here:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/16F628.html

All of the arguments listed apply to the 16F87X, 12F675/12F629, and the
16F676 familes of parts.

> The voltages will be between 0v and 0.5v.
> There will be up to 8 inputs.
> I need the outputted byte stream to tell the PC which input source it is
> looking at and whether it is high or low, for each of the sources in turn,
> running in a loop. E.g. 0011 would mean source 1 is high and 0100 would mean
> source 2 is low.

A raw PIC won't be able to discern 0V and 0.5V. So you'll need a voltage
multiplier, or an external comparator to differentiate. Something like a
couple of LM339 quad comparators should do the trick. Attach to PORTB, turn
on the weak pullups. Generate a 0.25V reference voltage using a couple of
precision resistors, and off you go.

BAJ

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2003\03\10@210705 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Or use a PIC with A/D inputs.

With a full scale range of 0..5V you'll have about 50 counts at 0.5V.

Treat anything over 25 counts as a '1'.

More than enough room.

You could even use a lower reference voltage and get a bigger swing.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2003\03\10@213604 by Tom Messenger

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face
Didn't the original question mention needing an a/d converter? As opposed
to just running a comparator?

I thought the need was to digitize inputs that happen to be in the zero to
half volt range.

I have already deleted the original posting so could be off base here.
Often am!
Tom M.

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2003\03\10@224748 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 08:57 PM 3/10/03 -0500, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> > The voltages will be between 0v and 0.5v.
> > There will be up to 8 inputs.
> > I need the outputted byte stream to tell the PC which input source it is
> > looking at and whether it is high or low, for each of the sources in turn,
> > running in a loop. E.g. 0011 would mean source 1 is high and 0100 would
> mean
> > source 2 is low.
>
>A raw PIC won't be able to discern 0V and 0.5V. So you'll need a voltage
>multiplier, or an external comparator to differentiate. Something like a
>couple of LM339 quad comparators should do the trick. Attach to PORTB, turn
>on the weak pullups. Generate a 0.25V reference voltage using a couple of
>precision resistors, and off you go.

Sigh.

You just spent 5 minutes extolling the virtues of the newer PICs, then go
on to suggest that the only way to sense between 0 & 0.5V is to add extra
chips.  At least 2 of those newer chips already contain internal comparitors.

The 12f675 / 12f629 have 1 comparitor with 2 accessible inputs
(multiplexed).  The 16f627/628 have 2 separate comparitors.

Vref is adjustable to at least 2 suitable voltages: 0.208V &
0.416V.  Personally, I'd use the lower  (0.208V) of the two I suggested.

If the original poster is stuck with using one of the older parts without
comparitors, that person might also consider using a NPN silicon transistor
as a low voltage comparitor input.

Consider: the nominal threshold voltage of a simple NPN transistor is about
0.6 - 0.7V (low collector current).

Pick some value of base input resistor - say: 10K.
Now treat that resistor as the bottom leg of a voltage divider set at 0.2V;
solve for the upper resistor, assuming that it is fed from the +5V
rail.  Upper resistor is 240K.  Connect that resistor from the +5V rail to
the base of the transistor.  Connect the input voltage to the free end of
the 10K resistor.

As the input voltage varies from 0V up to about 0.5V, the voltage seen at
the base of the transistor varies from about 0.2V through 0.7V.

This works only if the input voltage source is a low impedance - this is
often the case.  Source impedance was not specified by the original poster.

dwayne

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2003\03\11@010228 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   >> The voltages will be between 0v and 0.5v.  There will be up to 8
   >> inputs.  I need the outputted byte stream to tell the PC which
   >> input source it is looking at and whether it is high or low, for
   >> each of the sources in turn,

   > A raw PIC won't be able to discern 0V and 0.5V. So you'll need a
   > voltage multiplier, or an external comparator to differentiate.

   You just spent 5 minutes extolling the virtues of the newer PICs, then
   go on to suggest that the only way to sense between 0 & 0.5V is to add
   extra chips.  At least 2 of those newer chips already contain internal
   comparitors.  [more suggestions...]

I don't understand why you can't use a PIC with an 8-channel A-D
converter.  Sure, you only need 1 bit of precision, and an A-D is a
bit of a waste, technology wise.  But it is inexpensive in the real
world.  Something like an pic16f871 (a 40 pin package, which is a bit
unfortunate if you only need about 10 I/O total, but not awful.  You'd
certainly wind up adding that many holes to a PCB with 8 lines worth
of any external scaling solution.  Less than $5 from digikey...

BillW

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2003\03\11@012251 by Ned Konz

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face
On Monday 10 March 2003 09:29 pm, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> I don't understand why you can't use a PIC with an 8-channel A-D
> converter.  Sure, you only need 1 bit of precision, and an A-D is a
> bit of a waste, technology wise.  But it is inexpensive in the real
> world.  Something like an pic16f871 (a 40 pin package, which is a
> bit unfortunate if you only need about 10 I/O total, but not awful.
>  You'd certainly wind up adding that many holes to a PCB with 8
> lines worth of any external scaling solution.  Less than $5 from
> digikey...

Or the PIC 16F676, which has 8 channels of A/D converters in a 14-pin
package...

Though you'd have to bit-bang the serial, this is quite simple to do.

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2003\03\11@030430 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Messenger [SMTP:kristspamspam_OUTTHEGRID.NET]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 2:37 AM
> To:   @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC]: Voltage to bytes conversion
>
> Didn't the original question mention needing an a/d converter? As opposed
> to just running a comparator?
>
> I thought the need was to digitize inputs that happen to be in the zero to
> half volt range.
>
> I have already deleted the original posting so could be off base here.
> Often am!
> Tom M.
>
>
No mention was made of the requirement for an A/D converter.  The original
post was:

Laura wrote:
"I am a student studying broadcast engineering, and for my final project I
need to use a PIC16C84 to convert multiple small voltage inputs into bytes,
so that the output can be connected to a pc via the com port. Any help with
the code or circuit diagrams for this would be be fantastic. Thank you for
your help."

It sounds to me as though the requirement is only to know if the the input
voltage is either high or low.  This is well within the capabilities of a
16x84, but some external components will be needed to level shift the 0-0.5v
to the pic's logic levels.  Two quad comparators would get the job done.
However, I have to agree with the general consensus that using a
newer/larger device such as the 16F877 would make life considerably simpler.
With the on board A/D and USART, the code would be trivial.

Laura, there is some more information that would be helpfull:
1) What is the source impedance of the 0-0.5volts, i.e. how much current can
be drawn from these signals?  Could you tell us where the signal originate
from?
2) Do you want the PIC to continuously send out a stream of bytes indicating
the state of these signals, or would you want to command the PIC to send out
a byte, either via a serial command or a hardware switch?  If it
continuously sends, do you have any requirements for the rate at which the
data is sent, e.g. as fast as possible, or once per second etc.
3) What bit rate do you require for your serial interface?

Irrespective, this sounds like a pretty simple project.  If you can get the
hardware working then the code will not be difficult.

Regards

Mike



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2003\03\11@040951 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>And IMHO tools that have not yet caught up with at least the
>12F's are rather slow in doing so, which means that they
>probably should not be used in a professional environment ;)

Unfortunately I would say that as the original poster is quoting a 16C84
then they are not even in the hobby environment, let alone a professional
environment.

I had been considering also pointing at the 18F series, but felt that the
16F was going to be a big enough leap in technology from where they were
starting. However thank you for pointing out the other alternatives that I
had not had the time to investigate.

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2003\03\11@041820 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Like others would suggest, maybe you ought to look into
>something like a 16f877 or 18f452.

....

>Another good reason to use these instead is that you can install
>a bootloader on them and simplify your development process.

and I am quite sure that Wouter will be only too pleased to supply you with
a 16F877 with bootloader already programmed in, despite his fondness for the
newer devices :))

See the web page link at the bottom of one of his emails for details of
where to buy them.

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2003\03\11@065600 by Laura Adamson

picon face
Here is some more info:

>1) What is the source impedance of the 0-0.5volts, i.e. how much >current
>can be drawn from these signals?  Could you tell us where the >signal
>originate from?

The original signal is from an analogue video source. It has been stripped
of the video and is left with just the sync pulses. The sync pulses are then
being put through a monostable so that the output stays high when the syncs
are present and only goes low when they are missing. This is what is being
fed into the PIC.

>2) Do you want the PIC to continuously send out a stream of bytes
> >indicating the state of these signals, or would you want to command >the
>PIC to send out a byte, either via a serial command or a hardware >switch?
>If it continuously sends, do you have any requirements for >the rate at
>which the data is sent, e.g. as fast as possible, or once >per second etc.

I would like the inputs to be checked for about 320 micro seconds each,
before it checks the next source (as this is the time it takes for 5 lines
of syncs). I would like the data to be sent once for each of the checks on
the different sources.

I hope this helps.

Thanks again.

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2003\03\11@073823 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I would like the inputs to be checked for about 320 micro seconds
>each, before it checks the next source (as this is the time it
>takes for 5 lines of syncs). I would like the data to be sent once
>for each of the checks on the different sources.

From this I take it that you are looking for the vertical sync pulse from
the video stream? It is probably easier to use a specialised sync seperator
IC such as National Semiconductor make ( do not have the chip number to hand
sorry) to do this.

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2003\03\11@160417 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> A raw PIC won't be able to discern 0V and 0.5V.

The A/D inputs surely can. And a 16F676 provides 8 A/D inputs in its
humble 14-pin package. But A/D is probably too slow for what the OP
wanted.

BTW how many PIC-Lister does it take to sample 8 0..0.5 volt inputs?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\03\11@164041 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> BTW how many PIC-Lister does it take to sample 8 0..0.5 volt inputs?

About 11 by my count:

3 to suggest code snippets

2 to come up with off the wall solutions that don't really solve the
problem, but devolve into a discussion of sensing liquid levels in tanks.

Scott to optimize the code snippets to half the original number of
instructions.

2 more to complain that Scott should have included a few comments.

James to complain that someone has already done it, is selling it at
piclist.com, and we should be working on something more productive.

Me to tell the orignal poster to RTFM, or complain about his email format.

Roman to show how it can all be done with only $.19 in parts, and he'll
have a version next week where the suppliers pay you.


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\03\11@165333 by Dale Botkin

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face
A true classic.  My hat's off to you, Olin.  Probably the single best post
I've seen in the past couple of months, and I need a good laugh today.  My
sister died unexpectedly yesterday.

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\03\11@211946 by Charles Craft

picon face
Definitely FAQ material!  :-)
LMAO - didn't quite make it to the floor to roll around.


-------Original Message-------
From: Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamspamspamBeGoneEMBEDINC.COM>
Sent: 03/11/03 03:38 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Voltage to bytes conversion

>
> > BTW how many PIC-Lister does it take to sample 8 0..0.5 volt inputs?

About 11 by my count:

3 to suggest code snippets

2 to come up with off the wall solutions that don't really solve the
problem, but devolve into a discussion of sensing liquid levels in tanks.

Scott to optimize the code snippets to half the original number of
instructions.

2 more to complain that Scott should have included a few comments.

James to complain that someone has already done it, is selling it at
piclist.com, and we should be working on something more productive.

Me to tell the orignal poster to RTFM, or complain about his email format.

Roman to show how it can all be done with only $.19 in parts, and he'll
have a version next week where the suppliers pay you.


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(978) 742-9014, <a target=_blank
href="http://www.embedinc.com">http://www.embedinc.com</a>

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2003\03\11@213408 by Ian McLean

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You are trully at your cynical best today Olin ;).
LMAO.

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
Sent: Wednesday, 12 March 2003 8:39 am
To: EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Voltage to bytes conversion


> BTW how many PIC-Lister does it take to sample 8 0..0.5 volt inputs?

About 11 by my count:

3 to suggest code snippets

2 to come up with off the wall solutions that don't really solve the
problem, but devolve into a discussion of sensing liquid levels in tanks.

Scott to optimize the code snippets to half the original number of
instructions.

2 more to complain that Scott should have included a few comments.

James to complain that someone has already done it, is selling it at
piclist.com, and we should be working on something more productive.

Me to tell the orignal poster to RTFM, or complain about his email format.

Roman to show how it can all be done with only $.19 in parts, and he'll
have a version next week where the suppliers pay you.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\03\11@222958 by Jai Dhar

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The lighter side of Olin has truly come out!
I had a riot with this one, heh.


Quoting Ian McLean <.....ianmcleanspam_OUTspamOPTUSHOME.COM.AU>:

> You are trully at your cynical best today Olin ;).
> LMAO.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\03\11@234048 by cdb

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Olin Lathrop <TakeThisOuTolin_piclist.....spamTakeThisOuTEMBEDINC.COM>

About 11 by my count:

3 to suggest code snippet



I have to say on many occasions Olin's replies annoy me considerably.

However I think this reply full of humour and hilarious!

Colin
--
cdb, TakeThisOuTbodgy1KILLspamspamspamoptusnet.com.au on 12/03/2003

I have always been a few Dendrites short of an Axon and believe me it
shows.

Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright
until they speak!

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2003\03\12@004152 by michael brown

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Man Olin, that's the funniest thing I ever saw you or anyone write on
piclist.  ROTFLMAO.  You should do this more often.  ;-)

michael brown

"In the land of the blind, he who has one eye is king"

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2003\03\12@013002 by Jinx

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From: "Dale Botkin"

> My sister died unexpectedly yesterday.

I'm sure you have everyone's condolences Dale. Chin up

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2003\03\12@015548 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jinx wrote:

> From: "Dale Botkin"
>
> > My sister died unexpectedly yesterday.
>
> I'm sure you have everyone's condolences Dale. Chin up

Many thanks to you and to all the others who have sent their condolences.
I appreciate it, and apologize for the OT traffic.

Dale
--
It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off.

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2003\03\12@044034 by Alan B. Pearce

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Dale wrote
>A true classic.  My hat's off to you, Olin.  Probably the single
>best post I've seen in the past couple of months, and I need a
>good laugh today.  My sister died unexpectedly yesterday.

>On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> > BTW how many PIC-Lister does it take to sample 8 0..0.5 volt inputs?
>>
>> About 11 by my count:

Agree about the good laugh, and glad to see that Olin is prepared to poke
fun at himself. Least he allowed you to burn off today's karma :))

Sorry to hear about your sister.

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