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'[PIC]: Using The DIYK128 In An ICSP App'
2004\02\07@161923 by Bob Axtell

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I wanted ICSP enthusiasts to be aware that the DIYKit128 from Peter
Crawford at KitsRUs (http://www.kitsrus.com) works extremely well in my ICSP
applications. It is available from Carls' Electronics here in the colonies.

The K128, as well as the K149 and K150, are all designed by Tony Nixon,
a member of our esteemed PIClist. Tony specifically states that ICSP
will NOT work on his programmer, but in fact a week of testing with two
different K128's have proven that with minimal planning it will work
very well. The K128 works perfectly w/ 5 different processors (16F872/
6/7, 16F628, and 12F675) mounted on boards.

I have enclosed a typical schematic of how I use incircuit programming
(Test3.PDF). Note that I isolate the PIC VCC with an SD101  schottky
diode. If you use the lowest reverse-voltage available, at the low
average currents, the drop is negligible (60-80mv). I use a .1uF bypass
local to the chip, to maintain bypassing. Purists will want to replace
the diode with a jumper, and that's fine, but when vibration makes the
jumper fall out, don't say I didn't warn ya... <g>.

The K128 is very tiny, and comes with a standard dual-leaf 40p socket,
mounted on top of a tiny black box. You'll need to trim the PCB near the
USB connector end, as the intention is for a press-fit at that end. But
I used self-tapping screws (#4 x 3/16" Phillips) and that made the
assembly very sturdy.

Since my applications are 98% ICSP, I used an OLD soldering iron to
"drill" a 1/4" dia hole in the case on the end away from the USB
connector. I have enclosed my splices onto the 40p connector of the K128
to handle ICSP (K128)_ICSP_connections.PDF).

The only hardware gotcha on the K128 is that, while the documentation
describes the needed cable as a "standard USB A-type extension cable",
in fact it needs a USB A-male to USB A-male, quite a bit harder to find
than a simple extension. The rest of the kit is almost pre-assembled;
just the thru-hole parts need to be mounted. Very simple, done in an
hour. If you are a sloppy solderer, use something to remove the solder
droplets and flux. I use mineral spirits, dipping the entire board and
scrubbing with a small brush WHILE IN THE SOLUTION (scrubbing the board
with the brush away from the solvent might blow the chips). Finally,
after quickly air drying, I remove the remaining solvent by putting the
PCB in the dishwasher... it works better than anything. If all the water
has not been removed, use a hair dryer to get the remainder.

The software gotcha is really the old Windows driver snafu. You have to
match up the right driver to the right Windows, and the K128's internal
PIC (F628) has to match ITS program with the Programmer Software
(MicroPro). Once its all together, its a dream.

The Micropro programming software works quite well, even has a "voice"
mode. Cute for a few minutes then I had to turn it off- it scared the
dog and horses.

The K128 was exactly what I was looking for. I have pix with an Aries
ZIF socket plugged into it (not needed for ICSP) if anyone wants it.

-------

ICSP Everywhere- a treatise on newer PIC-based designs:

In the past, uPs were so expensive that we had to make everything funnel
through a single uP. External chips handled everything else. It was a
workable solution when the PICs were expensive. But now, a PIC is
cheaper than ANY peripheral chip. For example, the F648 can act as a
UART with 350 bytes of INCOMING or OUTGOING FIFO ram, for less than $2
ea! NOBODY sells anything like it for less than $10 ea, and because the
F648 only needs to do that one task, it can do it at 115kb without a sweat.

In one application, I had to create a fairly precise (2%) oscillator at
38Khz to drive a power inverter when voltage fell below a certain range
(voltage divider). I can do it with a single 8pin SOIC PIC that costs
less than $.75, plus two resistors and a small cap. I can't even BEGIN
to do that cheaper any other way.

A project I am doing now has, on a single board, 5 PIC's. All of them
are fairly cheap parts, but since they are all doing their jobs IN
PARALLEL, the overall thruput is incredible, even at 4Mhz clock speeds!
They communicate by way of an "SPI serial port" one master and 4 slaves,
all bit banged at about 8kb. AND 4 of them are SOIC14 (150mil) F676's.
And yes, each one has a an ICSP programming jack on it. In production
the actual jack will NOT be installed; the holes will act as guides for
a spring-probe pin assembly; just hold it for a few seconds while it
programs.


If any Q's let me know, onlist or personally.

--Bob
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              1-520-219-2363



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               Bob Axtell
       PIC Hardware & Firmware Dev
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             1-520-219-2363


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part 2 12001 bytes content-type:application/pdf; (decode)

part 3 4052 bytes content-type:application/pdf; (decode)

2004\02\07@232124 by Anand Dhuru

flavicon
face
Hello folks,

I have a question here; if a PIC is  just sitting on the breadboard (not
powered), and the same 5 signals that reach the programmer's DIP socket are
connected by an extender to the appropriate pins, would this have a lesser
chance of working than the true classic ICSP arrangement?

I am curious because I have had mixed results with this. While this strategy
works with larger PICs (18 pins and above) it does not seem to work at all
with 8 pin devices. I have tried using very short, separate cables from the
socket to the breadboard as well to eliminate any capacitive effects on the
cable, without success.

Or are the parallel conductors on the breadboard themselves causing the
trouble?

I cant figure this out. For all practical purposes (electrically) the PIC is
just sitting in the original socket; no crystal, no loads on the clock/data
lines etc

Incidentally, my observations are based two different hardware; the Melabs
EPIC and a JDM compatible programmer.

Any ideas on this subject?

Regards,

Anand Dhuru

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\07@235649 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Anand Dhuru wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I have a question here; if a PIC is  just sitting on the breadboard (not
> powered), and the same 5 signals that reach the programmer's DIP socket are
> connected by an extender to the appropriate pins, would this have a lesser
> chance of working than the true classic ICSP arrangement?
>
I've never had a problem with flash PICs. However, remember that my
method has a bypass cap located right at the device across PIC VCC/GND.
I've always suspected that the cap is critical to proper operation.

> I am curious because I have had mixed results with this. While this strategy
> works with larger PICs (18 pins and above) it does not seem to work at all
> with 8 pin devices. I have tried using very short, separate cables from the
> socket to the breadboard as well to eliminate any capacitive effects on the
> cable, without success.

Its because of normal variation in devices. Some simply won't work
without being bypassed, others will.

> Or are the parallel conductors on the breadboard themselves causing the
> trouble?
>

No, the programming speed is too slow for such effects.

> I cant figure this out. For all practical purposes (electrically) the PIC is
> just sitting in the original socket; no crystal, no loads on the clock/data
> lines etc

But there are ALWAYS capacitive loads, of varying amounts. The ability
of a processor to drive these loads sucessfully depends on the chip's
ability to obtain the instant current it needs to sucessfully drive a
pin. Bypass caps deliver that instanteous current. People are forever
forgetting that CMOS devices, including PIC's, draw current WHEN THINGS
CHANGE STATE. So the bypass cap provides the instantaneous current
needed to do that. PICs running at 32khz draw only a few uAs AVERAGE
current; but when a transition occurs, the requirement is significant,
probably several mA.

> Incidentally, my observations are based two different hardware; the Melabs
> EPIC and a JDM compatible programmer.

I don't believe the programmer has any bearing on it. When I first
started doing this, it didn't program properly with the Picstart either.
My scheme works with every programmer I've tried, PICPRO, PICALL, David
Tait, Nixon, all of 'em. It also works for MOST of the PIC16C devices as
long as the +13V supply can deliver the current to program the EEPROM.

> Anand Dhuru

Good Luck!

--Bob

>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\08@030258 by Anand Dhuru

flavicon
face
Thanks for the insight, Bob.

I'll try the bypass cap. on the breadboard; might trouble you again if that
doesn't help enough!

Regards,

Anand
{Original Message removed}

2004\02\08@043412 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I cant figure this out. For all practical purposes
> (electrically) the PIC is
> just sitting in the original socket; no crystal, no loads on
> the clock/data lines etc

I do things like this all the time. But I always add some power
decoupling near the PIC.

> Incidentally, my observations are based two different
> hardware; the Melabs
> EPIC and a JDM compatible programmer.

Mine are (of course) based only on my Wisp628 programmer. It might help
that this one was designed with ICSP in mind.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
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2004\02\08@121303 by Anand Dhuru

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face
> I do things like this all the time. But I always add some power
> decoupling near the PIC.
>
Is there an optimum value for the decoupling, say 0.1 uF? or is it more the
better?

Regards,

Anand Dhuru

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2004\02\08@121743 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Is there an optimum value for the decoupling, say 0.1 uF? or
> is it more the better?

Custom is some non-elco, .1uF ceramic or the like for the HF needs of
the uC itself. Add an elco when less HF variations are expected
(10..1000uF will do in most cases, maybe more - or better: other
measures - when relais, motors or LED displays are used).

Wouter van Ooijen

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consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\02\08@124815 by Hopkins

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face
1. Make shore the 13v supply is not too high for your PIC ie 13.5v maximum
for a PIC 12F675

2. Check your bread board is not giving problems is low impedance between
pins or short circuits, try a different bread board.

:-) Roy


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2004\02\08@212249 by techy fellow

picon face
Thanks so much for sharing this. I've been a using this kit 128 for some time and I must say, it is an extrememly good kit as it covers many PIC families, USB version, small & portable (can grapse it with one hand !), good support provided by Kitsrus and ease of use. The only drawback is, of course, no ICSP. Now, I can modify it and see whether I can program PIC chip on my PICDem 2Plus.

Way to go, Bob !!

cheers,

Bob Axtell <spam_OUTcr_axtellTakeThisOuTspamYAHOO.COM> wrote:


I wanted ICSP enthusiasts to be aware that the DIYKit128 from Peter
Crawford at KitsRUs (http://www.kitsrus.com) works extremely well in my ICSP
applications. It is available from Carls' Electronics here in the colonies.

The K128, as well as the K149 and K150, are all designed by Tony Nixon,
a member of our esteemed PIClist. Tony specifically states that ICSP
will NOT work on his programmer, but in fact a week of testing with two
different K128's have proven that with minimal planning it will work
very well. The K128 works perfectly w/ 5 different processors (16F872/
6/7, 16F628, and 12F675) mounted on boards.

I have enclosed a typical schematic of how I use incircuit programming
(Test3.PDF). Note that I isolate the PIC VCC with an SD101 schottky
diode. If you use the lowest reverse-voltage available, at the low
average currents, the drop is negligible (60-80mv). I use a .1uF bypass
local to the chip, to maintain bypassing. Purists will want to replace
the diode with a jumper, and that's fine, but when vibration makes the
jumper fall out, don't say I didn't warn ya... .

The K128 is very tiny, and comes with a standard dual-leaf 40p socket,
mounted on top of a tiny black box. You'll need to trim the PCB near the
USB connector end, as the intention is for a press-fit at that end. But
I used self-tapping screws (#4 x 3/16" Phillips) and that made the
assembly very sturdy.

Since my applications are 98% ICSP, I used an OLD soldering iron to
"drill" a 1/4" dia hole in the case on the end away from the USB
connector. I have enclosed my splices onto the 40p connector of the K128
to handle ICSP (K128)_ICSP_connections.PDF).

The only hardware gotcha on the K128 is that, while the documentation
describes the needed cable as a "standard USB A-type extension cable",
in fact it needs a USB A-male to USB A-male, quite a bit harder to find
than a simple extension. The rest of the kit is almost pre-assembled;
just the thru-hole parts need to be mounted. Very simple, done in an
hour. If you are a sloppy solderer, use something to remove the solder
droplets and flux. I use mineral spirits, dipping the entire board and
scrubbing with a small brush WHILE IN THE SOLUTION (scrubbing the board
with the brush away from the solvent might blow the chips). Finally,
after quickly air drying, I remove the remaining solvent by putting the
PCB in the dishwasher... it works better than anything. If all the water
has not been removed, use a hair dryer to get the remainder.

The software gotcha is really the old Windows driver snafu. You have to
match up the right driver to the right Windows, and the K128's internal
PIC (F628) has to match ITS program with the Programmer Software
(MicroPro). Once its all together, its a dream.

The Micropro programming software works quite well, even has a "voice"
mode. Cute for a few minutes then I had to turn it off- it scared the
dog and horses.

The K128 was exactly what I was looking for. I have pix with an Aries
ZIF socket plugged into it (not needed for ICSP) if anyone wants it.

-------

ICSP Everywhere- a treatise on newer PIC-based designs:

In the past, uPs were so expensive that we had to make everything funnel
through a single uP. External chips handled everything else. It was a
workable solution when the PICs were expensive. But now, a PIC is
cheaper than ANY peripheral chip. For example, the F648 can act as a
UART with 350 bytes of INCOMING or OUTGOING FIFO ram, for less than $2
ea! NOBODY sells anything like it for less than $10 ea, and because the
F648 only needs to do that one task, it can do it at 115kb without a sweat.

In one application, I had to create a fairly precise (2%) oscillator at
38Khz to drive a power inverter when voltage fell below a certain range
(voltage divider). I can do it with a single 8pin SOIC PIC that costs
less than $.75, plus two resistors and a small cap. I can't even BEGIN
to do that cheaper any other way.

A project I am doing now has, on a single board, 5 PIC's. All of them
are fairly cheap parts, but since they are all doing their jobs IN
PARALLEL, the overall thruput is incredible, even at 4Mhz clock speeds!
They communicate by way of an "SPI serial port" one master and 4 slaves,
all bit banged at about 8kb. AND 4 of them are SOIC14 (150mil) F676's.
And yes, each one has a an ICSP programming jack on it. In production
the actual jack will NOT be installed; the holes will act as guides for
a spring-probe pin assembly; just hold it for a few seconds while it
programs.


If any Q's let me know, onlist or personally.

--Bob
--

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--------------
Bob Axtell
PIC Hardware & Firmware Dev
http://beam.to/baxtell
1-520-219-2363



--

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--------------
Bob Axtell
PIC Hardware & Firmware Dev
http://beam.to/baxtell
1-520-219-2363


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> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pdf name=TEST3.pdf


> ATTACHMENT part 3 application/pdf name=K128_ICSP_Connections.pdf


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2004\02\10@112655 by Dave L

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part 1 1183 bytes content-type:text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-22766FFE; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

At 09:54 PM 2/7/04 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
>I've never had a problem with flash PICs. However, remember that my
>method has a bypass cap located right at the device across PIC VCC/GND.
>I've always suspected that the cap is critical to proper operation.

feedback:
A while back I had added  pins (+/- vpp pgd pgc) to my homemade clone of a
copy of a reproduction of a facsimile of the jdm/ludipipo programmer.
I was hoping to use  a two foot cable connected to the pins for ICSP.
Wouldn't work at all. Stuck a header wired to a 12F675 in a dip
socket directly on the far end of the cable to isolate but it was still NG.
That same header-socket stuck directly on the programmer board's pins
did work. (I had figured capacitance or crosstalk as I had all wires in
a common shield-)

Bob's directives gave me a jog, I added the 0.1uf across the socket/PIC
Vss Vdd and can now program across the cable.

Will have to try a board with the schottky power isolation to see if I get
true ICSP...

Thanks Bob et al
Dave




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