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'[PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....'
2002\06\20@224729 by Gabriel Caffese

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face
Hello everyone,

       I have a project where I have to take GREAT care of battery life.
       It´s a portable system with a 16F627, that has to make some measurements
every
        300 seconds, and stay on for 20 seconds.
       Once the system is turned on, it will NEVER be turned off.
       So, system´s life depends on batteries life. When batteries die, the whole
system is disposed.
       For the batteries I have to use, putting the 16F627 in sleep mode wouldn´t
be a solution, cause I
         would be far away from where I should (in terms of battery life).

       Now, the question:

       I thought of using a DS1337 RTC, wich has an alarm output that could be
configured to
        power the PIC every 60 seconds.
       I´ve also thought of use a 4060 counter, and others in cascade, but.......

       Would there be a better solution (cheaper, easier) for powering the 16F627
?


       Thanks in advance,

                       Gabriel.-

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2002\06\20@230048 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
If you PIC will be on and working 20 seconds out of every 300 seconds then
SLEEP should be a good choice for you. Here is why:

Assumptions (adjust to match your application):

Active power consumption = 3ma (1 ma for PIC at 3.3V + 2ma for whatever else
you are doing)

Sleep power consumption = 0.0022ma (Ipd from data sheet) + 0.010ma
(assumption for using a 32KHz XTAL on timer 1 for wakeup)

power consumed per 300 seconds while active = 20 seconds * 3 ma = 60 ma
seconds
power consumed per 300 seconds while sleeping = 280 seconds * 0.0122 ma =
3.4 ma seconds

Obviously the power consumed during the non-sleep interval greatly exceeds
the sleep time. About 95% of your available battery capacity is used doing
useful work.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems




{Original Message removed}

2002\06\20@233508 by Gabriel Caffese

flavicon
face
Thanks Bob,

       But I forgot to say, that the system will use 2 button cell (lithium)
batteries in parallel,
so Vdd is 6volt, and will use a 4mhz Xtal, cause it has to download data
every 1 month.
       Another thing, is that I have never been able to get a lower consumption
that 0.08 ma @5v,
in sleep mode !!!
       So, what can I do ?



-----Mensaje original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Bob Ammerman
Enviado el: Jueves, 20 de Junio de 2002 23:56
Para: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Asunto: Re: [PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....


If you PIC will be on and working 20 seconds out of every 300 seconds then
SLEEP should be a good choice for you. Here is why:

Assumptions (adjust to match your application):

Active power consumption = 3ma (1 ma for PIC at 3.3V + 2ma for whatever else
you are doing)

Sleep power consumption = 0.0022ma (Ipd from data sheet) + 0.010ma
(assumption for using a 32KHz XTAL on timer 1 for wakeup)

power consumed per 300 seconds while active = 20 seconds * 3 ma = 60 ma
seconds
power consumed per 300 seconds while sleeping = 280 seconds * 0.0122 ma =
3.4 ma seconds

Obviously the power consumed during the non-sleep interval greatly exceeds
the sleep time. About 95% of your available battery capacity is used doing
useful work.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems




{Original Message removed}

2002\06\21@023945 by Mircea Chiriciuc

flavicon
face
Check the pullup resistors you may have on the pins. If current is still
flowwing trough them in sleem there is your current. If possible try to use
PIC's internal pullups or increase the value at the upper limit your
apllication can handle.
I have donne some battery powered devices and I started with 0.024 and
endedup with 0.010 mA. Also to consider is the following (and I quote the
16F628 datasheet):
- power down current 0.009mA
- WDT current (if you didn't turn it off before sleep) 0.020 mA
- Brow-out detect circuit current - 0.125 mA
- comparator current for each comparator 0.050mA
- VREF current 0.135mA

So, dou you use a comparator and WDT? If so, there is your current.

Mircea Chiriciuc
EMCO INVEST

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2002\06\21@050935 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
In sleep, power the PIC by voltage from the lower cell only trrough a diode.
Low voltage=much lower current.

Then when the PIC wakes up it uses two transistors to connect it´s supply to the top cell plus.

If you can arrange to run on the 32kHz xtal all times except the rare occasion every month that would help much!

/Morgan

Hej Gabriel Caffese. Tack för ditt meddelande 04:43 2002-06-21 enligt nedan:
>        But I forgot to say, that the system will use 2 button cell (lithium)
>batteries in parallel,
>so Vdd is 6volt, and will use a 4mhz Xtal, cause it has to download data
>every 1 month.
>        Another thing, is that I have never been able to get a lower consumption
>that 0.08 ma @5v,
>in sleep mode !!!
>        So, what can I do ?

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2002\06\21@071240 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Caffese" <.....gabrielsdiKILLspamspam.....IMPSAT1.COM.AR>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....


> Thanks Bob,
>
>         But I forgot to say, that the system will use 2 button cell
(lithium)
> batteries in parallel,
> so Vdd is 6volt, and will use a 4mhz Xtal, cause it has to download data
> every 1 month.

Is the chip even specced to run at Vdd = 6V ??

You could still run with an RC OSC, but then use the 32.768KHz crystal to
'calibrate' a timebase for a bit-banged software UART (or, if your baud rate
is low enough, you could even compute an appropriate value to store in the
BRGEN and use the hardware UART).

>         Another thing, is that I have never been able to get a lower
consumption
> that 0.08 ma @5v,
> in sleep mode !!!
>         So, what can I do ?

This may be because of drain thru an I/O pin. There are two possibilities:
(1) a floating input causes drain in the input stage. (2) an output driving
high into some load.

Also, it might be some other part of your circuit.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\06\21@071520 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mircea Chiriciuc" <saschaspamspam_OUTROL.RO>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....


> Check the pullup resistors you may have on the pins. If current is still
> flowwing trough them in sleem there is your current. If possible try to
use
> PIC's internal pullups or increase the value at the upper limit your
> apllication can handle.
> I have donne some battery powered devices and I started with 0.024 and
> endedup with 0.010 mA. Also to consider is the following (and I quote the
> 16F628 datasheet):
> - power down current 0.009mA
> - WDT current (if you didn't turn it off before sleep) 0.020 mA

You cannot turn off the WDT. If it is enabled in the configuration this draw
will always be present. This could easily be the OP's primary problem.

> - Brow-out detect circuit current - 0.125 mA

The OP would not be using this, he wants to get all he can out of his pair
of lithiums.

> - comparator current for each comparator 0.050mA
> - VREF current 0.135mA

These should certainly be turned off when sleeping.



Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\06\21@074010 by Roman Black

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face
First I would suggest running the PIC at low speed,
assuming you can do this, like run at 32kHz or even
10kHz when it is running.

Instead of sleep mode, I think you could use something
like this: (crazy one-transistor circuit follows)

(only uses 0.5uA when off, and self-turns on)

+6v -------*-------------------*-----------------------
           |                   |
           Ca 0.1uF            |  PNP beta>500
           |                   E
           *-----*---*-------B
           |     |   |         C--------*-----------,
           |     |   |                  |           |
           |     |   |                  |+Pwr       |
           |     C   R 1M          ,-----------,    |
           |     |   |             |           |    |
           Ra    |   |             |           |    Cp 1uF?
       10M |     '---*-------------|x   PIC    |    |
           |   0.33uF        _on   |           |    |
           |                       |           |    |
           |                       '-----------'    |
           |                            |           |
Gnd -------*----------------------------*-----------*---


When the circuit is off, the only current is through
Ra, about 0.5uA. When Ca charges enough, PNP turns on,
and although only about 150uA? goes to the load the
main cap Cp will charge ok. PIC starts up, (about 80uA?)
and first thing it does is pull pin x low, turns on
circuit hard for relaible running.
To turn the circuit off, the PIC simply makes pin x
active HI, discharging Ca very quickly and turning
everything off.

Yep I know it's rough, but I think with some fiddling
it could be made to work quite well. :o)
-Roman



Morgan Olsson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\21@081805 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
>         Another thing, is that I have never been able to get a lower
consumption
> that 0.08 ma @5v,
> in sleep mode !!!
>         So, what can I do ?

Fix the sleep mode current.  It shouldn't be 80uA.  Carefully look at the
state of all outputs, etc and figure out where the current is being drawn.
Make sure all the PIC peripherals are off during sleep except if you need
any to wake up.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\06\21@092725 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 07:00:58AM -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> > Thanks Bob,
> >
> >         But I forgot to say, that the system will use 2 button cell
> (lithium)
> > batteries in parallel,
> > so Vdd is 6volt, and will use a 4mhz Xtal, cause it has to download data
> > every 1 month.
>
> Is the chip even specced to run at Vdd = 6V ??

Nope. Max is 5.5V. Actually it may be better to parallel the two lithiums and
switch to a LF part that runs reliably down to 2V. The lower voltage and
high available current should combine to extend the available running time.

>
> You could still run with an RC OSC, but then use the 32.768KHz crystal to
> 'calibrate' a timebase for a bit-banged software UART (or, if your baud rate
> is low enough, you could even compute an appropriate value to store in the
> BRGEN and use the hardware UART).

If that's the case wouldn't a syncronous serial interface be better? Then
the internal 37 KHz RC oscillator can be used.

BAJ

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2002\06\21@103025 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> > Is the chip even specced to run at Vdd = 6V ??
>
> Nope. Max is 5.5V. Actually it may be better to parallel the two lithiums
and
> switch to a LF part that runs reliably down to 2V. The lower voltage and
> high available current should combine to extend the available running
time.

Very good idea if the rest of the circuit will go at 2V.

> >
> > You could still run with an RC OSC, but then use the 32.768KHz crystal
to
> > 'calibrate' a timebase for a bit-banged software UART (or, if your baud
rate
> > is low enough, you could even compute an appropriate value to store in
the
> > BRGEN and use the hardware UART).
>
> If that's the case wouldn't a syncronous serial interface be better? Then
> the internal 37 KHz RC oscillator can be used.
>

The OP hasn't told us enough about his 'download' requirements. But if they
can be met using a SYNC interface then this is a great idea.

Of course, you still need accurate timekeeping, which would require the
TIMER1 32.768KHz oscillator (or an external RTC chip (yech!)).

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\06\21@113504 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> that 0.08 ma @5v,
> in sleep mode !!!
>         So, what can I do ?

I believe A/D converters are a current hog in sleep mode

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2002\06\21@130337 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 11:54 PM 6/20/02 -0300, Gabriel Caffese wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>         I have a project where I have to take GREAT care of battery life.
>         It´s a portable system with a 16F627, that has to make some
> measurements
>every
>          300 seconds, and stay on for 20 seconds.
>         Once the system is turned on, it will NEVER be turned off.
>         So, system´s life depends on batteries life. When batteries die,
> the whole
>system is disposed.

How accurate does the 300 seconds have to be?  If you can tolerate some variation, I would consider using the watchdog timer.  You will have to calibrate the watchdog on a periodic basis - this is easily done by setting the watchdog to no pre-scaler, running the PIC, then timing how long it for the watchdog to trigger.  Use that measured time as the basis for setting how many watchdog timeouts you need to achieve 300 seconds.

dwayne

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(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

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2002\06\21@132124 by mike

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The WDT is a bit power hungry.
Another possibility is to use a micropower reset chip and an RC
network to make a long-duration software-controllable one-shot to
provide a wakeup

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:56:40 -0600, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\21@132745 by David Koski

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face
Hello,

Definitely use sleep mode.  If you have T1 available (I don't have the 16F627 specs in front of me and am more fimiliar with 16F87x) you can use the low power osc to wake up on T1.  Make sure you have no floating unused inputs.  Avoid WDT as it is a power hog (at least with some PICs).  Even if you wake up every second to maintain a RTC you can achieve low power.

David

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:54:46 -0300
Gabriel Caffese <spamBeGonegabrielsdispamBeGonespamIMPSAT1.COM.AR> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\21@140453 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
How accurate does the 300 seconds have to be?  If you can tolerate some
variation, I would consider using the watchdog timer.  You will have to
calibrate the watchdog on a periodic basis - this is easily done by setting
the watchdog to no pre-scaler, running the PIC, then timing how long it for
the watchdog to trigger.  Use that measured time as the basis for setting
how many watchdog timeouts you need to achieve 300 seconds.

... This will be highly temperature dependent.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2002\06\21@144511 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 01:57 PM 6/21/02 -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote:
>How accurate does the 300 seconds have to be?  If you can tolerate some
>variation, I would consider using the watchdog timer.  You will have to
>calibrate the watchdog on a periodic basis - this is easily done by setting
>the watchdog to no pre-scaler, running the PIC, then timing how long it for
>the watchdog to trigger.  Use that measured time as the basis for setting
>how many watchdog timeouts you need to achieve 300 seconds.
>
>... This will be highly temperature dependent.

Depends upon how often you calibrate the timer.  I'm assuming that the
temperature would not change significantly within, say, 10 minutes.  Or 20
minutes.  In other words, it is application specific and original poster
has to decide how much variation he tolerate and how much the temperature
can be expected to change over what time period.  Then calibrate the
watchdog timer at that interval.

However, it has been pointed out that the watchdog consumes significant
current compared to just the quiescent sleep current.  The data sheet bears
this out - 5 uA (max) vs 25 uA (max).  Of course, if one used typical
values, it looks less bad.  But we don't do that, do we ;)

So next he has to decide if the extra 20 uA consumed by the watchdog is any
better or worse than other techniques.

It all depends upon the intended usage.  I would have NO hesitation using
the watchdog as a power-up timer for a freezer alarm.  Check for unsafe
temperature every 5 minutes or 4 minutes or 6 minutes - who cares?  Just
not important.

dwayne

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Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
 .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-
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Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
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2002\06\21@155823 by Gabriel Caffese

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face
Hi again,

       I´ll give you more information about the project:

       1) The whole system will be a 0ºC for 4 days, and then 4 days at 25ºC, and
again....
       2) I NEED to wake up the PIC, at exacly 300 seconds.
       3) The system will store in an external EEPROM, the date and time, every
time
the user pulses a switch.

       So:
       (a) I understand I have to use Timer1 with a 32,768khz cristal.
       (b) I´ve succeeded in lowering the consumption up to 10ua.

       Is (a) the best solution ??????
       Do you know about another one, simpler, and cheaper ?

       Thanks again,

                               Gabriel.-

-----Mensaje original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Morgan Olsson
Enviado el: Viernes, 21 de Junio de 2002 06:51
Para: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Asunto: Re: [PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....


In sleep, power the PIC by voltage from the lower cell only trrough a diode.
Low voltage=much lower current.

Then when the PIC wakes up it uses two transistors to connect it´s supply to
the top cell plus.

If you can arrange to run on the 32kHz xtal all times except the rare
occasion every month that would help much!

/Morgan

Hej Gabriel Caffese. Tack för ditt meddelande 04:43 2002-06-21 enligt nedan:
>        But I forgot to say, that the system will use 2 button cell
(lithium)
>batteries in parallel,
>so Vdd is 6volt, and will use a 4mhz Xtal, cause it has to download data
>every 1 month.
>        Another thing, is that I have never been able to get a lower
consumption
>that 0.08 ma @5v,
>in sleep mode !!!
>        So, what can I do ?

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2002\06\21@165923 by M. Adam Davis

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face
Not simpler and cheaper, but less power hungry.  I liked the idea of using an RTC with alarm switching a FET or similar to power the PIC.  The RTC can either have its own battery (internal, lasts several years) or connection to the regular batteries and draw very little power.

But there again (as was previously mentioned) your real drain, the on time of the micro, is what you should really be concerned about...

-Adam

Gabriel Caffese wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\23@135235 by Eelco

flavicon
face
If you need to safe power look at the MSP430 MCU from TI.

Regards.
Eelco.

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Adam Davis" <RemoveMEadampicTakeThisOuTspamspamUBASICS.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Turning on a PIC micro every 5 minutes.....


Not simpler and cheaper, but less power hungry.  I liked the idea of
using an RTC with alarm switching a FET or similar to power the PIC.
The RTC can either have its own battery (internal, lasts several years)
or connection to the regular batteries and draw very little power.

But there again (as was previously mentioned) your real drain, the on
time of the micro, is what you should really be concerned about...

-Adam

Gabriel Caffese wrote:

>Hi again,
>
>        I´ll give you more information about the project:
>
>        1) The whole system will be a 0ºC for 4 days, and then 4 days at
25ºC, and
>again....
>        2) I NEED to wake up the PIC, at exacly 300 seconds.
>        3) The system will store in an external EEPROM, the date and time,
every
{Quote hidden}

diode.
>Low voltage=much lower current.
>
>Then when the PIC wakes up it uses two transistors to connect it´s supply
to
>the top cell plus.
>
>If you can arrange to run on the 32kHz xtal all times except the rare
>occasion every month that would help much!
>
>/Morgan
>
>Hej Gabriel Caffese. Tack för ditt meddelande 04:43 2002-06-21 enligt
nedan:
{Quote hidden}

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