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'[PIC]: Transistors for pocket programmer.'
2002\02\20@124552 by jn

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face
Guys, I'm not good with analog electronics...

...Transistor parameters are Greek to me.

I'm trying to source parts for Tony Nixon's pocket programmer so that people
can order in one shot from digikey or mouser. What I have so far is at
www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/ppord.htm
At this point, the total is looking at about $75 just for the parts. But
there are a lot of cases of having to buy 10 when you need 1 because Digikey
has a minimum order quantity. And their prices are high on some types of
things. I'll eventually re-source those components through Mouser the same
way and then split the form into two according to where the best price is.

Once I get all the parts sourced, if I can do it so they match Tony's
original boards, I'll just run a batch of the original PCB layout. If I
can't match them or if there is a significant price savings to be had by
doing a new layout, I'll do a new layout. The boards will probably run about
$15 to $20 so I think we can get to a final price of less than $100 easily
and maybe as little as $75.

Hopefully, by April, the pocket will again be available as a kit. A friend
of mine is interested in providing assembled and tested units, so that may
also become an option. In any case, a small royalty payment will go to Tony,
although he has not asked for one (and he has given me permission to make
them here).

But at this point, I'm really having a hard time with these transistors and
I'd really appreciate some help. The BC numbers are European I guess, and
I'm told the specs are not unusual, but I need to know what Digikey or
mouser (or other) part number is a good replacement. All the cases are the
little TO-92's.

BC548 NPN Vce30 Vcb30 Ic 100mA Hfe 110-800 @2mA    500mW
BC639 NPN    80   100    1A        40-250  @150mA  1W
BC640 PNP  as per BC639

Thanks in advance!

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2002\02\20@125915 by David P. Harris

picon face
James-

Digikey is very expensive for one-offs, more than my local store sometimes.
(But, I have to admit the service is incredible - I ordered at 08:00, order
filled at 10:00, and arrived the next day on the West Coast of Canada at
13:00!).

I would price it out at 10 and 25.  Show us all the prices.  I wouldn't be
surprised if you could enough orders to get the price down.

David

"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\20@132940 by jamesnewton

face picon face
www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm#pocket
is the general link and
www.piclist.com/images/com/bubblesoftonline/www/http/pocket/pocket/po
cket_pdf/schematic.gif
has the schematic...

...oh boy... This is a good education... there are different pin outs for
transistors even? wow... glad I asked.

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{Original Message removed}

2002\02\20@150644 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Once I get all the parts sourced, if I can do it so they match Tony's
> original boards, I'll just run a batch of the original PCB layout. If I
> can't match them or if there is a significant price savings to be had by
> doing a new layout, I'll do a new layout. The boards will probably run
about
> $15 to $20 so I think we can get to a final price of less than $100 easily
> and maybe as little as $75.

Isn't the price for a Picstart+ around $100?  If so, what's the point?
Especially if the $75 programmer is a kit and doesn't cover the whole PIC
product line.  However, $75 parts cost sounds VERY high for what I imagine
to be in a programmer.

> BC548 NPN Vce30 Vcb30 Ic 100mA Hfe 110-800 @2mA    500mW
> BC639 NPN    80   100    1A        40-250  @150mA  1W
> BC640 PNP  as per BC639

It would help a lot if you can get the parameters actually required of the
transistors by the circuit, not the specs for the selected parts.  That
would make it more likely that some cheap transistor from Jameco can be
substituted.  For example, Jameco sells 2N4401 and 2N4403 for $6.00 per bag
of 100.  These are generic basic transistors with reasonably gain and
frequency response in TO-92 package.  They don't match all the specs above,
but just might meet the circuit requirements.  I use these in one-off
designs as "jelly bean" transistors.  For higher power jelly beans, I use
TIP41 and TIP42.  These are TO-220 and also available cheaply from Jameco.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, @spam@olinKILLspamspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\20@155703 by Paul Hutchinson

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> Isn't the price for a Picstart+ around $100?

It's $200.00 at Digi-Key.

Paul

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2002\02\20@161121 by Rick C.

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Just a note. I'm using the Warp13a from Dontronics. Programs just about
everything, ZIF socket included, ICSP works too! Interfaces to MPLAB or
runs on its own software. Very satisfied with it. I paid $105 USD
shipped stateside.
http://www.dontronics.com/newfound.html
Rick

Paul Hutchinson wrote:

> > Isn't the price for a Picstart+ around $100?
>
> It's $200.00 at Digi-Key.
>
> Paul
>
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2002\02\20@170655 by Dwayne Reid

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At 10:28 AM 2/20/02 -0800, James Newton. Admin 3 wrote:
><www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm#pocket>
>is the general link and
><www.piclist.com/images/com/bubblesoftonline/www/http/pocket/pocket/po
>cket_pdf/schematic.gif>
>has the schematic...

James - I had a quick look at the schematic and feel that you can use
common, jelly-bean transistors without any problems other than possibly
pinout.  Use 2n4401 for the NPN transistors and 2n4403 for the PNP
transistors.  They should cost less than a dime each in small quantities
and a couple of pennies in larger quantities.  I can send you a couple of
dozen each if you want to try them before buying.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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2002\02\20@171239 by Tony Nixon

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"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:

> Hopefully, by April, the pocket will again be available as a kit. A friend
> of mine is interested in providing assembled and tested units, so that may
> also become an option. In any case, a small royalty payment will go to Tony,
> although he has not asked for one (and he has given me permission to make
> them here).

No need to, just donate it to the PIClist fund :-)

>
> BC548 NPN Vce30 Vcb30 Ic 100mA Hfe 110-800 @2mA    500mW
> BC639 NPN    80   100    1A        40-250  @150mA  1W
> BC640 PNP  as per BC639


I think I found 2N equivalents..

BC639  2N2222
BC640  2N2907

Pin outs may be different

BC548 is any general purpose switching transistor, such as you would use
to turn small relays on and off with a PIC IO pin.


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Best regards

Tony

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2002\02\20@172324 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> It's $200.00 at Digi-Key.

Hmm, you're right.  I guess you have to be a Microchip PIC consultant to get
the $100 price.  Then again, they throw in a PicStart+ with some other
things, like the ICE-2000.  I have 2 PicStart+ around here, and am quite
certain I never actually paid directly for either one.


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolinspam_OUTspamKILLspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\20@175837 by James Paul

picon face
All,

I signed up for one of their (Microchip) seminars that was held in
Houston a few years ago.   When I signed up, I also opted to purchase
a PICStart+ Programmer and the ICD.  Since I was attending the seminar,
they gave a discount on the prices of the PSP and the ICD.  The PSP was
$149.00 with the discount and the ICD was 199.00 with the discount.
But when I got to the seminar, I asked for the units I had reserved.
I was told there wasn't any there for me as only purchased units were
reserved abd brought to the seminar.
I told them I did purchase/reserve a PSP and an ICD.

Long story short, they checked with the field engineers office where I
signed up and they were told I did purchase the units.  Since it was
their screw-up, the field engineer said he would send me one of each
unit when he got back to his office a couple of days later.   Sure enough,
about 3 days after the seminar, a box arrived at my door with a PSP and
and ICD unit with all the software, hardware, etc.  It had been shipped
to me FEDEX Next Day, and said there was NO CHARGE AT ALL.  So, I got a
refund of all monies I had paid, plus I got my units and they were sent
via FEDEX NEXT DAY.   All in all, quite a deal I think.

So generally speaking, I will give ALL my microcontroller business to
Microchip.   The only time I'll stray from that promise is when my
employer insists on using something else.    And even then, I try to
talk them into using a PIC.

Anyway, just wanted to share my experience regarding the PSP and ICD,
and to tell you you might want to look into their seminnar schedule.
You can get a discount if you order at the same time you sign up for
the seminar.

                                             Regards,

                                               Jim




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2002\02\20@180643 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:10 AM 2/21/02 +1100, you wrote:
>BC639  2N2222
>BC640  2N2907

Tony, do you recall what the maximum Pd is on those transistors?

The (metal case) 2N2222 is only good for 500mW at Ta = 25'C, the
2N4401 (cheap, ubiquitous) 630mW at Ta = 25'C, your BC639/40
for 830mW @ Ta = 25'C (burnt finger, anyone?)

Unless some are running quite warm, the 2N4401/2N4403 should work for
all of them, except that none of the pinouts will be correct, and
there are two variations. ;-)

If I was doing it with your PCB design and parts *I* had on hand, I'd flip
a 2N4401 or 8050 (US pinout) for the one part, and use 2SC1815/2SA1015 for
the BC639/640. Doesn't work for anyone else, I'll bet.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\02\20@180842 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm#pocket
> is the general link and
>
www.piclist.com/images/com/bubblesoftonline/www/http/pocket/pocket/po
> cket_pdf/schematic.gif
> has the schematic...
>
> ...oh boy... This is a good education... there are different pin outs for
> transistors even? wow... glad I asked.

They only have three leads, so how far off could it be? <grin>

I had a quick look at the schematic, but it isn't obvious in how much
current the transistors will pass when on, and what the voltage drop accross
them will be.  All the voltages seem to be limited to 18V, so that will be
no problem for jelly bean transistors.  Judging from the resistor values
near the transistors, most of them don't seem to pass much current except
maybe TR4 and TR3.  However, some of the wires have names and these names
were too small to read, so I can't tell where they go.  I'd be surprised if
anything exceeds 100mA, but can't guarantee that.  You should really ask
Tony.  If all the currents and power dissipations are small enough you
should be able to replace all the NPNs with 2N4401 and the PNPs with 2N4403
which are real cheap and available.

Yes, the pinouts can be different between different transistors.  If the
transistor has wire leads like a TO-92 package, you can usually rotate the
part and bend the leads to get them in the right place.  Just make sure you
tell people how to install it if it's not how it's shown on the silkscreen.


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, EraseMEolinspamEraseMEembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\20@182002 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Re: Olin's 2nd message on this (won't copy for some reason):-

The Japanese E-C-B to American E-B-C pinout translation is messy, you have
to rotate it part of a turn and then curve the leads around, and there is
risk of the C and B shorting if it is not done carefully.

One idea is to put a universal footprint on your PCBs:

   E  B  C    <--- American (or European B C E, with TO-92 flipped)

   0  0  0----x
   |    \     |
   0  0  0    |
      |       |
      x-------x
   E  C  B    <--- Japanese

Then your product can be made with whatever's most available anywhere in
the world. (Or just use SOT-23 transistors, they are pretty much
standardized- at last!)

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\02\20@182501 by Tony Nixon

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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> At 09:10 AM 2/21/02 +1100, you wrote:
> >BC639  2N2222
> >BC640  2N2907
>
> Tony, do you recall what the maximum Pd is on those transistors?

They should only need to pass around 50mA. That is the specs that
Microchip give for VPP current on the C series. F series current is
negligible.

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Tony

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2002\02\20@185258 by Paul Hutchinson

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> Then again, they throw in a PicStart+ with some other things, like
> the ICE-2000.

I wish they did, but they don't. At least we didn't get one when we paid a
bit over $2000.00 for an ICE-2000 setup last year. Had to pony up another
$200.00 for the PicStart+ and, some more $ recently for an ICD kit :-(.

Maybe it's only included for registered Microchip PIC consultants.

But so far, we've found the MicroChip tools to be worth every penny they
cost.

Paul

=========================================
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Chief Engineer
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New Bedford, MA 02745
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2002\02\20@190334 by Dwayne Reid

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At 06:33 PM 2/20/02 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>Re: Olin's 2nd message on this (won't copy for some reason):-
>
>The Japanese E-C-B to American E-B-C pinout translation is messy, you have
>to rotate it part of a turn and then curve the leads around, and there is
>risk of the C and B shorting if it is not done carefully.
>
>One idea is to put a universal footprint on your PCBs:
>
>    E  B  C    <--- American (or European B C E, with TO-92 flipped)
>
>    0  0  0----x
>    |    \     |
>    0  0  0    |
>       |       |
>       x-------x
>    E  C  B    <--- Japanese

Even easier: 4 holes in line.  The outer holes are tied together as
Emitter.  Now you can do E-B-C or E-C-B just by picking which 3 holes to use.

   E  B  C  E

   0  0  0  0
   |        |
   +--------+

dwayne


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2002\02\21@090747 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> One idea is to put a universal footprint on your PCBs:
>
>     E  B  C    <--- American (or European B C E, with TO-92 flipped)
>
>     0  0  0----x
>     |    \     |
>     0  0  0    |
>        |       |
>        x-------x
>     E  C  B    <--- Japanese

If you arrange the pads in a triangle, then its a lot easier to insert a
transistor with a different pinout.


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, olinEraseMEspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\22@081214 by Peter Crowcroft

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>From:    "James Newton. Admin 3" <RemoveMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspamspam_OUTPICLIST.COM>
>Subject: [PIC]: Transistors for pocket programmer.
>But at this point, I'm really having a hard time with these transistors and
>I'd really appreciate some help. The BC numbers are European I guess, and
>I'm told the specs are not unusual, but I need to know what Digikey or
>mouser (or other) part number is a good replacement. All the cases are the
>little TO-92's.
>
>BC548 NPN Vce30 Vcb30 Ic 100mA Hfe 110-800 @2mA    500mW
>BC639 NPN    80   100    1A        40-250  @150mA  1W
>BC640 PNP  as per BC639

These are standard, readily available in Hong Kong. I use BC547's by the
thousands. KEC or Philips. My buying price is $US0.0167  each.

BC639/40 are about 3 times that.



2. Ceramic resonators - someone else was asking - are generic, also easy to
get here with 2 caps built in. Price $US0.064 is what I buy them for.



regards,

Peter Crowcroft
           DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
     PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Factory: voice 852-2304 2250    Fax: 852-2729 1400
        M/F, 97 Fuk Wa Street, Sham Shui Po
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2002\02\22@084041 by Steven Allard

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picon face
From our transistor database:

BC548 eqv. BC168, BC183, BC238, 2N5818
BC639 eqv. 2SD667, 2N3700...3701, 2SC2383
BC640 eqv. 2SB647, 2SA1013

Best Wishes

Steve

Peter Crowcroft wrote:

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