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'[PIC]: Toshiba TC58128FT-ND Flash Memory'
2000\11\13@115732 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Dear All,

I wonder if anyone has used the new Toshiba TC58128FT-ND Flash Memory (p
223 of the DigiKey catalog)? It is 128Meg (I presume that is bits). in a
48 pin TSOP package.

At the moment I am using 8 x 256k serial EEPROMs with an I2C bus. I am
wondering whether there are any differences in the way that this flash
memory is used - i.e. will it accept I2C, or do you have to use another
method of addressing it?

Also, any other aspects where it differs from serial EEPROM?

TIA!

Chris
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Associate Professor
HomeCare Technologies for the 21st Century (Whitaker Foundation)
NIDRR Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on TeleRehabilitation
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Catholic University of America
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2000\11\13@170039 by rottosen

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Sorry, you lose. Unfortunately, the TC58128FT is a SmartMedia memory.
The "smart media" is in fact really dumb. The parts are accessed using a
wide memory address and data bus. This needs LOTS of lines (about 17 of
them) from a typical PIC. In addition you have to do all of the error
correction and remapping of bad memory blocks using your own controller.

My thinking right now is that I will try to use the MultiMedia card in
my applications that need lots of NV memory. The MultiMedia cards have
an onboard controller and a serial interface.

I have only read the spec. sheets, so far, for both kinds of parts.


-- Rich


"Dr. Chris Kirtley" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\11\13@172646 by Andrew Warren

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Richard Ottosen <EraseMErottosenspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTidcomm.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, the TC58128FT is a SmartMedia memory. The "smart
> media" is in fact really dumb. The parts are accessed using a wide
> memory address and data bus. This needs LOTS of lines (about 17 of
> them) from a typical PIC.

   Rich:

   You're right about SmartMedia being really dumb, but address and
   data are sent on one multiplexed 8-bit-wide bus. The interface
   needs a number of additional control signals (Command Latch
   Enable, Address Latch Enable, Read, Write, Ready/Busy, Card
   Detect), but it can be implemented with fewer than 17 PIC I/O
   lines, especially if you don't mind adding a little bit of
   external logic to your circuit.

> In addition you have to do all of the error correction and
> remapping of bad memory blocks using your own controller.

   Only if you need to be compatible with the SmartMedia Standard.

   If you don't need the chip to be interoperable with other
   SmartMedia devices, you can dispense entirely with the
   logical-to-physical block mapping and/or the error correction.

   -Andy


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=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== Interface Products Division, S.D.
===
=== The opinions expressed above do
=== not necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation.

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2000\11\13@174956 by rottosen

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Andy:
There appear some things I don't understand about SmartMedia. See my
questions below.

Thanks,
-- Rich



Andrew Warren wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I spoke too simplistically. However, there are 17 pins on the connector
that must be controlled by the PIC, am I right?


>
> > In addition you have to do all of the error correction and
> > remapping of bad memory blocks using your own controller.


You may not have to do the error correcting. I am almost sure that you
must do the bad block remapping since there is no other way of knowing
if the portion of memory being used is good. Is there something I am
missing?


>
>     Only if you need to be compatible with the SmartMedia Standard.
>
>     If you don't need the chip to be interoperable with other
>     SmartMedia devices, you can dispense entirely with the
>     logical-to-physical block mapping and/or the error correction.
>

How do you avoid using the bad memory sections?


{Quote hidden}

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2000\11\13@184746 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Dear Andrew/Richard,

Thanks for the comments on Toshiba Flash Memory. I am using the 44 pin
PIC16F877, so the number of I/O pins to ocntrol it is not a problem -
what about the software, though - I guess you're suggesting that this
can be quite complicated?

BTW, I note that there's a slight diffrence between the 16M and the 64 &
128 versions.  The latter (TC5864FT-ND/TC58128FT-ND) have only 8 I/O
pins and 7 other controls, whereas the former (TC58FVT160-85-ND) has a
total of 45 active pins!

Is there some qualitative difference, then, in the way these two devices
work? I notice that the 16M version comes in "top boot block" and
"bottom boot block" types - what the heck does that mean?

BTW, I ordered two top boot block versions ($9 and available - the
bottom boot block type was $13 and not available, as was the TC5864FT-ND
and TC58128FT-ND).

Chris
--
Dr. Chris Kirtley MD PhD
Associate Professor
HomeCare Technologies for the 21st Century (Whitaker Foundation)
NIDRR Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on TeleRehabilitation
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering, Pangborn 105B
Catholic University of America
620 Michigan Ave NE
Washington, DC 20064
Tel. 202-319-6247,  fax 202-319-4287
Email: RemoveMEkirtleyTakeThisOuTspamcua.edu
http://engineering.cua.edu/biomedical

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2000\11\13@190735 by Tim Hamel

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Hi Chris,

Unfortunately, I can't answer your other questions but I can answer the
bootblock question. In the computer industry, the BIOS is on Flash memory.
When a user wants to upgrade his BIOS, he'll usually flash it with a new
image. If something is to interrupt the flash process, it's toast -- that's
where the bootblock comes in. Some Flash chips have code flashed into the
bootblock area that functions as a minimal setup so the user can reflash the
chip back to normal. It means the difference between a few minutes of your
time reflashing or a new mobo. I imagine top/bottom bootblock means the top
or bottom of the memory map; I'm not sure though.


Regars,

Tim Hamel

In a message dated Mon, 13 Nov 2000  6:50:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Dr.
Chris Kirtley" <TakeThisOuTkirtleyEraseMEspamspam_OUTCUA.EDU> writes:

<< Dear Andrew/Richard,

Thanks for the comments on Toshiba Flash Memory. I am using the 44 pin
PIC16F877, so the number of I/O pins to ocntrol it is not a problem -
what about the software, though - I guess you're suggesting that this
can be quite complicated?

BTW, I note that there's a slight diffrence between the 16M and the 64 &
128 versions.  The latter (TC5864FT-ND/TC58128FT-ND) have only 8 I/O
pins and 7 other controls, whereas the former (TC58FVT160-85-ND) has a
total of 45 active pins!

Is there some qualitative difference, then, in the way these two devices
work? I notice that the 16M version comes in "top boot block" and
"bottom boot block" types - what the heck does that mean?

BTW, I ordered two top boot block versions ($9 and available - the
bottom boot block type was $13 and not available, as was the TC5864FT-ND
and TC58128FT-ND).

Chris

>>

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2000\11\13@194255 by Andrew Warren

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Richard Ottosen <RemoveMErottosenspamTakeThisOuTidcomm.com> wrote:

> there are 17 pins on the connector that must be controlled by the
> PIC, am I right?

   SmartMedia cards have 22 "pins", 5 of which are Vcc or GND... So,
   yeah, that leaves 17.  Some of the 17 can be multiplexed,
   though, and others can be ignored.

> You may not have to do the error correcting. I am almost sure that
> you must do the bad block remapping since there is no other way of
> knowing if the portion of memory being used is good. Is there
> something I am missing?

   There are lots of ways to handle bad blocks; not all of them
   require a logical-to-physical map.

   One (dumb, slow) example of a rule that can replace the huge
   logical-to-physical map:

       The data for logical block "x" is stored in physical block
       "x" or, if physical block "x" is damaged, in the first
       non-damaged block after physical block "x".

   Note that with this method, there's no remapping; there's just
   some sort of "marking" of the bad blocks.

   -Andy


=== Andrew Warren --- aiwEraseMEspam.....cypress.com
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
=== Interface Products Division, S.D.
===
=== The opinions expressed above do
=== not necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation.

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2000\11\13@195335 by Andrew Warren

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Dr. Chris Kirtley <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Thanks for the comments on Toshiba Flash Memory. I am using the 44 pin
> PIC16F877, so the number of I/O pins to ocntrol it is not a problem -
> what about the software, though - I guess you're suggesting that this
> can be quite complicated?

   Judge for yourself:  Toshiba's example SmartMedia software
   requires 30K of code space and 21K of data space.  Samsung's uses
   about 60K of code space and 23K of data space.

   It's possible, by the way, to optimize the code-space usage
   considerably, but I know of no way to get decent performance out
   of SmartMedia-Standard cards using less than about 9K of data
   space.

> BTW, I note that there's a slight diffrence between the 16M and the 64
> & 128 versions.  The latter (TC5864FT-ND/TC58128FT-ND) have only 8 I/O
> pins and 7 other controls, whereas the former (TC58FVT160-85-ND) has a
> total of 45 active pins!
>
> Is there some qualitative difference, then, in the way these two
> devices work?

   The 45-pin chip has a non-multiplexed bus; it's not a SmartMedia
   chip (although it undoubtedly uses the same raw Flash silicon as
   the SmartMedia chips).

   -Andy


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=== Cypress Semiconductor
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2000\11\13@202600 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Dear Andrew/others,

Thanks for your feedback on this. So would you say that the best
(simplest/densest) storage medium is still serial EEPROM?

Chris
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Dr. Chris Kirtley MD PhD
Associate Professor
HomeCare Technologies for the 21st Century (Whitaker Foundation)
NIDRR Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on TeleRehabilitation
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering, Pangborn 105B
Catholic University of America
620 Michigan Ave NE
Washington, DC 20064
Tel. 202-319-6247,  fax 202-319-4287
Email: RemoveMEkirtleyTakeThisOuTspamspamcua.edu
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2000\11\13@203416 by Andrew Warren

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Dr. Chris Kirtley <RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Thanks for your feedback on this. So would you say that the best
> (simplest/densest) storage medium is still serial EEPROM?

Chris:

Serial EEPROM is the simplest to interface to a PIC, but it isn't the
densest and it's nowhere near the fastest; Flash beats serial EEPROM
on both those counts.

-Andy


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2000\11\13@205503 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Hamel <KILLspamTekPhobiaspamBeGonespamAOL.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Toshiba TC58128FT-ND Flash Memory


> Hi Chris,
>
> Unfortunately, I can't answer your other questions but I can answer the
> bootblock question. In the computer industry, the BIOS is on Flash memory.
> When a user wants to upgrade his BIOS, he'll usually flash it with a new
> image. If something is to interrupt the flash process, it's toast --
that's
> where the bootblock comes in. Some Flash chips have code flashed into the
> bootblock area that functions as a minimal setup so the user can reflash
the
> chip back to normal. It means the difference between a few minutes of your
> time reflashing or a new mobo. I imagine top/bottom bootblock means the
top
> or bottom of the memory map; I'm not sure though.

Yep, that's exactly what it means.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\11\13@212433 by Bill Westfield

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Atmel has "serial dataflash" memory in fairly large sizes.

BillW

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2000\11\15@125548 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Dear all,

I just received a couple of these. As I say, they're only $9 and have
16Mbits, so seem like a bargain. I don't suppose anybody has any code
for reading/writing to them?

TIA!

Chris
--
Dr. Chris Kirtley MD PhD
Associate Professor
HomeCare Technologies for the 21st Century (Whitaker Foundation)
NIDRR Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on TeleRehabilitation
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering, Pangborn 105B
Catholic University of America
620 Michigan Ave NE
Washington, DC 20064
Tel. 202-319-6247,  fax 202-319-4287
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2000\11\15@130338 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Sorry - just noticed the subject heading - it's actually the
TC58FVT160FT-85-ND (44 pin) type that I've got.

Chris
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Dr. Chris Kirtley MD PhD
Associate Professor
HomeCare Technologies for the 21st Century (Whitaker Foundation)
NIDRR Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on TeleRehabilitation
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering, Pangborn 105B
Catholic University of America
620 Michigan Ave NE
Washington, DC 20064
Tel. 202-319-6247,  fax 202-319-4287
Email: .....kirtleyspam_OUTspamcua.edu
http://engineering.cua.edu/biomedical

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