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'[PIC]: The tale continues (building PARPIC)'
2002\07\30@061013 by Kieren Johnstone

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Hi again only me ;)

Well, I'm trying to build a PARPIC (see FPP / David Tait's site).  But, it's not working :)  Here are some assumptions I have made from the schematic (note, no oscs, etc., other pins are connected, using 16F877):

* I don't need to connect *all* the parallel port's ground cables to ground
* There is a "common" ground - both the 12V supply and parallel port's ground are the same
* Both Vss pins should be grounded on the PIC
* No "regular operating voltage" to be connected (3xAA batteries)
* No Vdd pins to be connected

Well, here's the problem.  I put my newest chip in the circuit, clicked "read" from FPP.. and I got a screen full of "0000"s!  This was encouraging, since before it just said "-- Blank --".. note also that the ID/config words were also 0000.  I loaded LEDFLASH.HEX, clicked "program" and instantly, "Failed to program code!" appeared.  I put in another chip, same thing happened.  Just out of curiosity, I tried it with no chip in place.. same result!  *cry*
One thing I noticed, after selected PARPIC in FPP, the setup screen shows the ICSP box checked, and the Data3 pin (pin 5 on parallel port connected, which I think enables data reading into pin ACK?) isn't used anywhere.

I am now in a spongey state waiting for your advice :)

Thanks
Kieren


P.S.  Still waiting for response for tech support regarding minimum programming voltage - at the moment I'm using 12V straight.

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2002\07\30@073450 by Kevin Blain

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Yoy need to connect vdd on the pic (both pins while you're at it) to +5V
supply (a reasonable current ~30mA see data sheet)

Regards, Kevin

> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@075416 by Kieren Johnstone

picon face
Hmm, unfortunately now it just says "-- Blank --" again and still won't
program.
I mean, am I right to connect the 12V supply's ground also with the 5V and
parallel grounds?  Also, on me old transistors - there small black thingies
with a flat end :)  From left-to-right (flat end facing me), Emitter Base
Collector?  And, I checked the datasheet, couldn't find any current specs
anywhere, just gave it 30mA like you said..

Kieren

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Blain" <.....kevinKILLspamspam@spam@JBET.CO.UK>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: The tale continues (building PARPIC)


> Yoy need to connect vdd on the pic (both pins while you're at it) to +5V
> supply (a reasonable current ~30mA see data sheet)
>
> Regards, Kevin
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@080451 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> on me old transistors - there small black thingies with a
> flat end :)  From left-to-right (flat end facing me), Emitter
> Base Collector?

I would not trust that without looking up the type name/number, nor all
transistors have the same 'pinout'! Surely BC547 and 2n3904 are
different (just to name two).

Wouter

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2002\07\30@094430 by Russell McMahon

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> > on me old transistors - there small black thingies with a
> > flat end :)  From left-to-right (flat end facing me), Emitter
> > Base Collector?
>
> I would not trust that without looking up the type name/number, nor all
> transistors have the same 'pinout'! Surely BC547 and 2n3904 are
> different (just to name two).

I agree. Every combination possible exists (there are 6 for a 3 lead bipolar
transistor)(cbe ceb ecb ebc bec bce)
CBE is very common as is EBC but neither is certain. A transistor Beta
tester as found on many modern multimeters will help find the right
combination/ As it can be NPN or PNP there are 12 possible combinations.

A FAR quicker way is to use a meter on low ohms or (better still) diode
test. An NPN will have a diode conducting away from the base to each of C &
E (base = anode). A PNP will have diodes conducting towards the base from
the other two leads (base = cathode). Once you have found the base and
NPN/PNP it is easy to try it in the transistor beta tester with the two
possible remaining combinations. The one with the highest Beta (usually be
far) is the correct one.

If you do not have a beta tester on your meter you can make one very easily.
Collector to supply via say 10k resistor.
Base to supply via say 1mohm resistor.
Higher the beta the ore current is drawn (= less volts across the 10k if  no
milliamp meter available).
Actual readings depend on supply voltage and beta.
Say Vsupply = 5 volts. Ib ~= (5-0.6)/1Mohm. =  4.4uA
V10k = Ib x Beta x R
For eg beta = 100 = 4.4uA x 100 x 10k = 4.4 volts.
SO this arrangement would saturate with a 5 volt supply at B much over 100.
Change base to supply resistor to 10 Mohm and you get 0.44V for beta = 100.
4M7 probably about right as few except Darlingtons go much over beta of 500.

I can sense a PIC project beckoning - surely this exists already though.
Plug in transistor and CBE NPN/NPN are identified and rough beta indication.



       RM


PS    Jim may submit a grammar amd spelling report if desired.

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2002\07\30@103609 by Josh Koffman
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I bought a multimeter from Radio Shack (North America) once that did
exactly that I love that feature.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Russell McMahon wrote:
> I can sense a PIC project beckoning - surely this exists already though.
> Plug in transistor and CBE NPN/NPN are identified and rough beta indication.

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2002\07\30@104444 by Jim

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part 1 2321 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

I built this programmer about a year ago and it worked great untill the old
pentium 75mhz I was using with it
blew up. Then I got my new athlon 1ghz put together and plugged in the
parpic and no amount of cursing
would make it work. Turns out the parrallel ports 3.3v for a high on the new
puter was the problem.
I came up with this circuit that I now use without problems.
(see attachment note transistor=generic npn 2n3904 ect.)
Hope this helps
Jim

{Original Message removed}
part 2 6615 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 105 bytes
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2002\07\30@110857 by Kieren Johnstone

picon face
I tested my parallel port voltage, it's 3.3v too!  I'm about to order this
high-speed CMOS IC thing, but just to clarify something, how does it work?
Feeding a lower voltage into an input switches on a higher voltage?  (I.e.
just a set of like 8 transistors in an IC?)  What's all this tri-state
stuff?
God, I hope this is the reason, it means I'm not quite to incapable after
all :)

Kieren

P.S.  I'm guessing 3.3v is too low to trigger "TTL" inputs?

----- Original Message -----
Wrom: JVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZL
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: The tale continues (building PARPIC)


> I built this programmer about a year ago and it worked great untill the
old
> pentium 75mhz I was using with it
> blew up. Then I got my new athlon 1ghz put together and plugged in the
> parpic and no amount of cursing
> would make it work. Turns out the parrallel ports 3.3v for a high on the
new
> puter was the problem.
> I came up with this circuit that I now use without problems.
> (see attachment note transistor=generic npn 2n3904 ect.)
> Hope this helps
> Jim
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@115123 by Jim

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The HCT chip is a buffer That will condition a digital signal (clean it up).
When outputs are in Tri state it's like they are pysically removed from the
circuit. In this case any signal appearing at pport pin2 cannot effect the
signal appearing at pport pin10 when the first buffer is in tristate. If you
are going to built this circuit here is
the setup for Tait's fpp software.
function       pin      invert
-----------------------------------
out               2
clk                3
vdd              -
mclr             4           x
pgm             -
read             5
in                 10


jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@122651 by Kieren Johnstone

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Thanks, you really have solved all my problems ;)  If I just bought a HCT
chip and 10k in the first place I could have built the TLVP and saved me so
much :'(  I reckon a page about building your own programmers should appear
on piclist.com, with common mistakes etc., eh Mr. Admin?

Kieren

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim" <RemoveMEjames3162TakeThisOuTspamWORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: The tale continues (building PARPIC)


> The HCT chip is a buffer That will condition a digital signal (clean it
up).
> When outputs are in Tri state it's like they are pysically removed from
the
> circuit. In this case any signal appearing at pport pin2 cannot effect the
> signal appearing at pport pin10 when the first buffer is in tristate. If
you
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@123336 by Brendan Moran

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face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> P.S.  I'm guessing 3.3v is too low to trigger "TTL" inputs?

IIRC, that's not the problem.  Remember for this following table that
HCT parts have TTL inputs.
I've included the input and output voltages for TTL, CMOS in general,
and CMOS at 5V.  As you can see, the problem is likely not that you
are using a TTL part.

        Voltage | Voltage | Voltage  | Voltage |
        In High | In Low  | Out High | Out Low |
       +--------+---------+----------+---------+
TTL     |  2.0V  |  0.8V   |   2.4V   |  0.5V   |
CMOS    | 30%VDD | 70%VDD  |   ~VDD   |  ~GND   |
CMOS(5V)|  1.5V  |  3.5V   |    5V    |   0V    |
       +--------+---------+----------+---------+

Hope that helps,

- --Brendan

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2002\07\30@130840 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> much :'(  I reckon a page about building your own programmers
> should appear
> on piclist.com, with common mistakes etc., eh Mr. Admin?

Mr Admin will be happy to host the beginners guidline that you will
write!

;)

Wouter

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2002\07\30@144218 by Josh Koffman

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There are many programmers listed at:
www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm
If you wish to try to build all of them and document the difficulties
you've had, it will be a great addition to what is already there.

Josh
PICList Admin 5
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Kieren Johnstone wrote:
> I reckon a page about building your own programmers should appear
> on piclist.com, with common mistakes etc., eh Mr. Admin?

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2002\07\30@175410 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Josh Koffman wrote:

>I bought a multimeter from Radio Shack (North America) once that did
>exactly that I love that feature.
>
>Josh
>--
>A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
>completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
>fools.
>        -Douglas Adams
>
>Russell McMahon wrote:
>> I can sense a PIC project beckoning - surely this exists already though.
>> Plug in transistor and CBE NPN/NPN are identified and rough beta indication.

And more importantly if you put it in backwards a led lights or the beta
shown is 1 or 2.  I have one of those. They cost under $15 here. ICL 7106
based 3 1/2 digits. Mine even has backlight with a timer and a hold
button.  Same price.

Peter

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2002\07\30@225828 by Dale Botkin

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Mine (Radio Shack Micronta 22-175A) just has a 3-hole strip...  tells you
NPN/PNP, pin orientation, and beta.  Love it to death.

Dale
--
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Peter L. Peres wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\31@045722 by nigel.orr

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> > > on me old transistors - there small black thingies with a
> > > flat end :)  From left-to-right (flat end facing me), Emitter
> > > Base Collector?
> >
> > I would not trust that without looking up the type
> name/number, nor all
> > transistors have the same 'pinout'! Surely BC547 and 2n3904 are
> > different (just to name two).

If you want a definitive answer, invest in a copy of Towers' International
Transistor Selector which includes brief data, pinouts and packaging info.

> A FAR quicker way is to use a meter on low ohms or (better
> still) diode
> test. An NPN will have a diode conducting away from the base
> to each of C &
> E (base = anode). A PNP will have diodes conducting towards
> the base from
> the other two leads (base = cathode). Once you have found the base and
> NPN/PNP it is easy to try it in the transistor beta tester

Or you can carry on with the diode tester.  The base-emitter diode will have
a marginally higher voltage drop than the base-collector diode.  It might
only be a couple of mV, but it's usually enough to show on even a cheap
multimeter.

> I can sense a PIC project beckoning - surely this exists
> already though.
> Plug in transistor and CBE NPN/NPN are identified and rough
> beta indication.

It does exist, a company called Peak make them.  There is a range of them in
the current Farnell catalogue, Section 2 page 1061.  They have a red, black
and green crocodile clip which you put on the device, then bicolour LEDs
light (or stay off for black) beside 'base', 'collector' and 'emitter'
labels to show which is which.  They also do one with an LCD display, so you
get some numbers too.  They are about the size of a radio pager, the ones
without an LCD cost UKP32.50 + VAT.  I thought I remembered they had a PIC
inside, but that could well be wrong.  I've never used one, but they look
like a nice design, very simple.

Nigel



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2002\07\31@063556 by David Duffy

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Nigel wrote:
> > I can sense a PIC project beckoning - surely this exists
> > already though.
> > Plug in transistor and CBE NPN/NPN are identified and rough
> > beta indication.
>
>It does exist, a company called Peak make them.  There is a range of them in
>the current Farnell catalogue, Section 2 page 1061.  They have a red, black
>and green crocodile clip which you put on the device, then bicolour LEDs
>light (or stay off for black) beside 'base', 'collector' and 'emitter'
>labels to show which is which.  They also do one with an LCD display, so you
>get some numbers too.  They are about the size of a radio pager, the ones
>without an LCD cost UKP32.50 + VAT.  I thought I remembered they had a PIC
>inside, but that could well be wrong.  I've never used one, but they look
>like a nice design, very simple.

I bought the LCD one from another (cheaper) Australian importer. (~ AU$180)
Works quite well. I did take a peek inside and seem to recall a PIC or similar.
This type of tester pays for itself quickly in the workshop environment.
Regards...

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