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'[PIC]: The "PIC18C Reference Manual" ?'
2003\01\20@130322 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Hi.
Last year I asked about the "Mid-range Ref Manual", and the
common opinion was that you'd better stick to the specific
"Data Sheet" for each model. OK.

Now I'v found something called "PIC18C Reference Manual" on
the Microchip web. Is the general opinion about
*this* document the same as for the midrange document ?
That is, not worth to download.


Jan-Erik Svderholm
S:t Anna Data

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2003\01\20@150636 by Larry Bradley

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Just like the Mid-Range Reference Manual, it tells you a lot about the
series - a lot more, in  some cases, than the data sheet. However, the data
sheet is necessary for the specific details of a particular chip. I use both.

Larry

At 07:02 PM 1/20/2003 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Larry Bradley
Orleans (Ottawa), Ontario, CANADA

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2003\01\20@151921 by Dwayne Reid

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At 07:02 PM 1/20/03 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>Hi.
>Last year I asked about the "Mid-range Ref Manual", and the
>common opinion was that you'd better stick to the specific
>"Data Sheet" for each model. OK.

I would disagree with this - the individual data sheets often make
reference to the Mid-range Reference Manual.  The individual data sheet
tells you most of what you need to know and is the final authority if the
information in the Mid Ref Manual is different.  But that extra manual
contains a wealth of information especially useful to beginners.

>Now I'v found something called "PIC18C Reference Manual" on
>the Microchip web. Is the general opinion about
>*this* document the same as for the midrange document ?

I haven't looked at it yet.  But when I start to play with the 18C or 18F
series, I *will* download the most current version of it and read it.

dwayne

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2003\01\20@152129 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 03:06 PM 1/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Just like the Mid-Range Reference Manual, it tells you a lot about the
>series - a lot more, in  some cases, than the data sheet. However, the data
>sheet is necessary for the specific details of a particular chip. I use both.

Me too. I cringe when people say that the midrange reference manual or the
electrical specifications in the datasheet are not useful. 8-(

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2003\01\20@153338 by Jan-Erik Soderholm
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> Me too. I cringe when people say that the midrange reference manual or the
> electrical specifications in the datasheet are not useful. 8-(
>
> Best regards,

OK, sorry, I was a bit unclear in my post...
I think the main discussion last time, was that the midrange ref manual
was a bit old (dated dec-1997), there must be a number of features
in the later PIC models that are missing (?).

Anyway, I got the message, I'v started a download of the 18-series
ref manual (17 mb !). B.t.w, it's called "...18C-...", I'm mainly using
the 18F models. I hope that doesn't matter...

Thanks!
Jan-Erik.

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2003\01\20@170302 by Olin Lathrop

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> Me too. I cringe when people say that the midrange reference manual or
the
> electrical specifications in the datasheet are not useful. 8-(

What exactly have you found useful in the midrange reference manual that
wasn't in a particular data sheet?


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\01\20@173415 by Jinx

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> What exactly have you found useful in the midrange reference
> manual that wasn't in a particular data sheet?

How do you define "useful" ? Does it matter - for the sake of a
bit of download time all documents are available

As just one example, and there are many others - the MRM has
18 pages on oscillators, which includes inforrmation not in the
F628 manual's 3 pages

And a recent query about power-down uA showed that the
chip manual was incorrect and the MRM had the good oil

At nearly 700 pages I don't print out the MRM, but it's easy enough
to browse as a pdf and it's a good "one stop shop" for all kinds of
information

The on-going disparaging of the MRM is curious from someone
who rightly urges people to seek out information. Turning the
question around - why "exactly" is there this dislike of the MRM ?

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2003\01\20@175110 by Dwayne Reid

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At 05:00 PM 1/20/03 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > Me too. I cringe when people say that the midrange reference manual or
>the
> > electrical specifications in the datasheet are not useful. 8-(
>
>What exactly have you found useful in the midrange reference manual that
>wasn't in a particular data sheet?

I enclose a copy of my reply when when the same topic came up in October last year:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\01\20@180706 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 05:00 PM 1/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > Me too. I cringe when people say that the midrange reference manual or
>the
> > electrical specifications in the datasheet are not useful. 8-(
>
>What exactly have you found useful in the midrange reference manual that
>wasn't in a particular data sheet?

The instruction set summaries in the data sheet details on Q cycle activity,
and I recall some of the information on the PWM being useful, but can't
remember it any more because it's all "obvious" now. ;-)

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffEraseMEspam.....interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2003\01\20@190839 by Olin Lathrop

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> > What exactly have you found useful in the midrange reference
> > manual that wasn't in a particular data sheet?
>
> How do you define "useful" ? Does it matter

Useful means you found some additional information about a processor in it
that wasn't in the processor data sheet.  Of course it matters.  If there
is nothing useful in it for any particular processor that can't be had
from the data sheet then the MRM can be safely ignored.

> As just one example, and there are many others - the MRM has
> 18 pages on oscillators, which includes inforrmation not in the
> F628 manual's 3 pages

Is anything in the extra 15 pages relevant to the 16F628?

{Quote hidden}

I'm not disparaging it, just asking if anyone has found a unique tidbit of
information in it.  I looked at it a few years ago when first learning
PICs, then discovered the subset for a particular processor appeared to be
in the specific data sheet.  A few times I had problems and looked to the
MRM for more detail, but always came away empty handed.  I eventually
reached the conclusion that the MRM wasn't worth reading, and have been
doing fine without it for several years.  The last time I looked at it was
about a year ago.  I was seeing strange IIC symptoms and was hoping there
was more info on the MSSP there.  There wasn't, which reinforced my
impression of the MRM.

The MRM might be useful to someone who is new to PICs, but once you get
going it appears everything you need is in the data sheet for the
particular processor you are working with.  Under no circumstances is the
MRM a substitute for any data sheet, so you have read the data sheet
anyway.


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2003\01\20@195503 by Jinx

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> > As just one example, and there are many others - the MRM has
> > 18 pages on oscillators, which includes inforrmation not in the
> > F628 manual's 3 pages
>
> Is anything in the extra 15 pages relevant to the 16F628?

Yes, inasmuch as the F628 has an oscillator and the MRM has
technical inforrmation about PIC oscillators

> The MRM might be useful to someone who is new to PICs, but
> once you get going it appears everything you need is in the data
> sheet for the particular processor you are working with.  Under
> no circumstances is the MRM a substitute for any data sheet,
> so you have read the data sheet anyway.

Quite true, it's just another document that can be referred to from
time to time, and does have information not present in specific
product datasheets

We'll have to agree to disagree. You have your opinion, and that's
cool. I hear what you're saying - if you know your trade then there's
no need for a manual, it's all in your head. However, for many people
it probably doesn't work out that way and the MRM can be useful

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2003\01\21@134956 by Andre Abelian

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-----Original Message-----


Hi.
Last year I asked about the "Mid-range Ref Manual", and the
common opinion was that you'd better stick to the specific
"Data Sheet" for each model. OK.

Now I'v found something called "PIC18C Reference Manual" on
the Microchip web. Is the general opinion about
*this* document the same as for the midrange document ?
That is, not worth to download.

;*****************************************************************
;   Reference manual
;*****************************************************************
Reference manual contains more information about midrange pics
So all microchips smart engineers put together their ideas to help
designers. I would download it no matter what. I just downloaded pic18c
Ref manual and it was 16 mb in PDF format and I used winrar to
Compress it became 11 MB. Any time I open pdf files online after it
Opened lots of pages are still blank when I move to next page then
It will download more I still like zip or rar idea download it first
Then it all yours.

Andre Abelian

;******************************************************************



Jan-Erik Svderholm
S:t Anna Data

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