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'[PIC]: THVP?'
2002\07\29@183746 by Brendan Moran

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Somewhat inspired by Byron's TLVP I've wondered how trivial it was
possible to make a HVP.  Here's what I came up with for your scrutiny
(see attachment)

Replacing the PIC-VDD control line with a straight connection to VDD
might be a better option.  Other than that, well, there's not much
draw on the +13V line, so why bother with a complex circuit to
control it?

- --Brendan

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2002\07\29@190656 by Byron A Jeff

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>
> Somewhat inspired by Byron's TLVP I've wondered how trivial it was
> possible to make a HVP.  Here's what I came up with for your scrutiny
> (see attachment)

Well thanks for the encouragement.

* You need a current limiting resistor from the output of your IC1D to the
base of the transistor.

* Double check the input impeadance required on the 13V line. I always read
that MCLR should be tied via a 100 ohm resistor or so.

* And like my TLVP you need a 1k resistor or so
right after the output of IC1A so that the PIC can overdrive the output
of the parallel port. Otherwise you'll burn out the buffers on either the
PIC, IC1A, or both.

>
> Replacing the PIC-VDD control line with a straight connection to VDD
> might be a better option.

Could be. I always worry about hot plugging PICs into a socket.

>  Other than that, well, there's not much
> draw on the +13V line, so why bother with a complex circuit to
> control it?

True.

Cool circuit. Make sure to note as described that it'll only work with a short
cable. I have a developer who is working on a transmission line termination
scheme that I plan to incorporate for longer cables.

BAJ

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2002\07\29@200820 by Brendan Moran

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> > Somewhat inspired by Byron's TLVP I've wondered how trivial it
> > was possible to make a HVP.  Here's what I came up with for your
> > scrutiny (see attachment)
> > >
> Well thanks for the encouragement.

No problem, glad to oblige you.  Compacting level conversion into a
single chip is a great idea, and you deserve the credit on that one
far more than I do.  My primary goal here is to create a programmer
with a lower part count than the 'classic 16F84 programmer' as
described in the Fpp readme.

The HCT part helps there, since I don't think that the PIC is likely
to take more than 25mA during programing, which is the maximum output
current for the HCT04.

I'm depending on the 2.2V-5.5V programming spec for HVP.  If the
output drifts as current demand increases, the HCT04 should still be
able to maintain above 2.2V, eventhough its minimum voltage is 2.0V.

I don't know if this will result in reduced board space or not.  I'll
still have to test that myself.

I think I've changed all that needs to be changed here.  I think that
this circuit's good operation is going to depend on a maximum length
of ICSP cable, and not having a long cable to the programmer proper.

> Cool circuit. Make sure to note as described that it'll only work
> with a short cable. I have a developer who is working on a
> transmission line termination scheme that I plan to incorporate for
> longer cables.

I have attached a new diagram.  I think it entails all that's
necessary.  It is a bit of a change from the previous, and its gains
over the classic programmer are:  4 resistors.  I'm not sure yet that
that is worth redesigning the programmer, but I'm giving it a shot.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\29@202351 by Tony Nixon

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Brendan Moran wrote:

> I'm depending on the 2.2V-5.5V programming spec for HVP.  If the
> output drifts as current demand increases, the HCT04 should still be
> able to maintain above 2.2V, eventhough its minimum voltage is 2.0V.

As I understand the data sheet...

The "Programming" spec, Vdd is 4.5 - 5.5V

The "Reading" - "Operating" spec, Vdd is 2.0 - 5.5V

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2002\07\29@221023 by Byron A Jeff

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On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 05:08:06PM -0700, Brendan Moran wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > > Somewhat inspired by Byron's TLVP I've wondered how trivial it
> > > was possible to make a HVP.  Here's what I came up with for your
> > > scrutiny (see attachment)
> > > >
> > Well thanks for the encouragement.
>
> No problem, glad to oblige you.  Compacting level conversion into a
> single chip is a great idea, and you deserve the credit on that one
> far more than I do.

Well thanks. It came to be just as soon as I realized that my parallel port
was output 3.3V high voltages.

>  My primary goal here is to create a programmer
> with a lower part count than the 'classic 16F84 programmer' as
> described in the Fpp readme.

Agreed. I took a crack at a HVP programmer too.
>
> The HCT part helps there, since I don't think that the PIC is likely
> to take more than 25mA during programing, which is the maximum output
> current for the HCT04.

I'm doing the same with a HCT573 on a 16F628. It works fine.

>
> I'm depending on the 2.2V-5.5V programming spec for HVP.  If the
> output drifts as current demand increases, the HCT04 should still be
> able to maintain above 2.2V, eventhough its minimum voltage is 2.0V.

I don't see this as a problem.

>
> I don't know if this will result in reduced board space or not.  I'll
> still have to test that myself.
>
> I think I've changed all that needs to be changed here.  I think that
> this circuit's good operation is going to depend on a maximum length
> of ICSP cable, and not having a long cable to the programmer proper.

I still wouldn't put a long cable anywhere in the setup. Honestly if you need
a long cable, the serial port is much better designed for that type of
operation.

{Quote hidden}

I think I like your original Vpp circuit better with just the addition of the
base resistor. It's one less transistor and one less resistor than your
second design.

BAJ

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2002\07\30@023314 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> As I understand the data sheet...
>
> The "Programming" spec, Vdd is 4.5 - 5.5V
>
> The "Reading" - "Operating" spec, Vdd is 2.0 - 5.5V

AIUTDS (As I understand the data sheet) you can read and write (program)
using 2.0 ... 5.5 V but you can do a bulk erase only within 4.5 .. 5.5.

Wouter

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2002\07\30@023323 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Somewhat inspired by Byron's TLVP I've wondered how trivial
> it was possible to make a HVP.  Here's what I came up with
> for your scrutiny (see attachment)

I guess IC1E is used to read from the target PIC, but the poor PIC will
have to fight IC1A. Maybe add a resistor (2k2?) on the output of IC1A?

Wouter

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2002\07\30@134709 by Brendan Moran

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> >  My primary goal here is to create a programmer
> > with a lower part count than the 'classic 16F84 programmer' as
> > described in the Fpp readme.
>
> Agreed. I took a crack at a HVP programmer too.

What happened to that design?

> I still wouldn't put a long cable anywhere in the setup. Honestly
> if you need a long cable, the serial port is much better designed
> for that type of operation.

To the best of my knowledge, all home-made programmers have this
issue.

> I think I like your original Vpp circuit better with just the
> addition of the base resistor. It's one less transistor and one
> less resistor than your second design.

So do I--so long as it will work.  I've attached the update, taking
into account all your suggestions.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\30@135734 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > I still wouldn't put a long cable anywhere in the setup. Honestly
> > if you need a long cable, the serial port is much better designed
> > for that type of operation.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, all home-made programmers have this
> issue.

http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 : serial port programmer, design is free for
DIY,
Uses a programmed :( PIC, allows a relatively long cable between PC and
programmer.

Wouter

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2002\07\30@154552 by Brendan Moran

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> http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 : serial port programmer, design is free
> for DIY,
> Uses a programmed :( PIC, allows a relatively long cable between PC
> and programmer.

That sounds like a great programmer, but I don't think that it will
achieve quite the minimalistic requirements that I'm trying for.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\30@155010 by Byron A Jeff

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part 1 2165 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:46:28AM -0700, Brendan Moran wrote:
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>
> > >  My primary goal here is to create a programmer
> > > with a lower part count than the 'classic 16F84 programmer' as
> > > described in the Fpp readme.
> >
> > Agreed. I took a crack at a HVP programmer too.
>
> What happened to that design?
>
It's here: http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/proghvp.gif

and it's wrong for the same reason that you have the two transistor setup in
your latest page: Q2 can only pull the base of the 2N2222 to 5V and the emitter
will rise of 0.6V below that. So MCLR cannot be pulled up to Vpp. Let me update
it to what will work

(Virtual time passes.... DING!)

This should work better:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/proghvpv2.gif

Grounding the base of the 2N2222 will turn it off pulling MCLR up to 13V.
Rasing the base to +5 should give enough current to saturate the transistor
pulling the collector to ground.

I'll probably go ahead and test this since I have all the parts in my junkbox.
And since I'm only doing flash parts, I should be able to get away with a 12V
source.


>
> > I still wouldn't put a long cable anywhere in the setup. Honestly
> > if you need a long cable, the serial port is much better designed
> > for that type of operation.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, all home-made programmers have this
> issue.

Not all. I think Michael Covington actually built the NOPPP programmer so that
it works OK with long cables. I'm going to try tying each input line to a 1.37V
voltage divider node made of a 180 ohm pullup and a 68 ohm pulldown with a
1K series resistor to each of the cable lines. Then we'll see how it goes.


>
> > I think I like your original Vpp circuit better with just the
> > addition of the base resistor. It's one less transistor and one
> > less resistor than your second design.
>
> So do I--so long as it will work.  I've attached the update, taking
> into account all your suggestions.

I'll attach mine too then! ;-)

Comments welcome.

BAJ


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2002\07\30@165016 by Dwayne Reid

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At 03:49 PM 7/30/02 -0400, Byron A Jeff wrote:

>This should work better:
>
>http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/proghvpv2.gif
>
>Grounding the base of the 2N2222 will turn it off pulling MCLR up to 13V.
>Rasing the base to +5 should give enough current to saturate the transistor
>pulling the collector to ground.

Collector resistor is too low - quiescent current (transistor ON - Mclr =
0V) is about 130 mA.

But I have a suggestion for Brendan's 2nd circuit - eliminate the 1st (npn)
transistor by simply feeding the the base of the pnp transistor with a
series R - zener diode arrangement.  The zener diode does the level shift
needed, the pnp transistor provides all the drive you could ever want.  I'd
suggest a series R of about 1K and a zener diode voltage of 9.1V - assuming
a regulated supply of 13.0V, this gives about 3 mA base drive to the pnp
transistor.  And the polarity is good as well: a LO from the printer port
turns Vpp OFF.

dwayne

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2002\07\30@170501 by Brendan Moran

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> But I have a suggestion for Brendan's 2nd circuit - eliminate the
> 1st (npn) transistor by simply feeding the the base of the pnp
> transistor with a series R - zener diode arrangement.  The zener
> diode does the level shift needed, the pnp transistor provides all
> the drive you could ever want.  I'd suggest a series R of about 1K
> and a zener diode voltage of 9.1V - assuming a regulated supply of
> 13.0V, this gives about 3 mA base drive to the pnp transistor.  And
> the polarity is good as well: a LO from the printer port turns Vpp
> OFF.

That sounds like a great idea...  Lemme see if I've got it right.

           13V
            |
            |
           |/E
      +----|
      |    |\C
      |     |
      \     |
      /     \
      \1k   /
      /     \  10k
      \     /
      |     \
      | /   |
     ---    |
    // \9.1V|
     ---    |
      |     |
      |    ---
  o---+   ///
parallel
port pin

That look right?

That seems great.  I don't know why I didn't think of it.  Probably
thinking too much in the voltage framework, and forgetting that
transistors are current based devices.  1 extra component and it
should make a world of difference.  Cool.

- --Brendan

- --Brendan

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2002\07\30@173802 by Kieren Johnstone

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I think Jim's "bufpic2" (see "Re: [PIC]: The tale continues (building
PARPIC)" from "Jim" with an attachment) would qualify as a THVP, if you take
out the voltage regulator stuff, maybe redraw the schematic all posh, no? :)

-Kieren

{Original Message removed}

2002\07\30@175819 by Brendan Moran

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> I think Jim's "bufpic2" (see "Re: [PIC]: The tale continues
> (building PARPIC)" from "Jim" with an attachment) would qualify as
> a THVP, if you take out the voltage regulator stuff, maybe redraw
> the schematic all posh, no? :)

That was very much like one of the ideas I proposed.  Depending on
the beta (or hFE) of the transistor, it could cause some trouble.

Assume that the parallel port outputs 3.3V.  That puts 3.3-0.7V
across the 10k resistor, giving 2.6V/10k = 0.26mA  Assuming a beta
(or hFE) of 150 (which should be average in a small signal
transistor), that only produces 0.26mA*150 = 39mA.  39mA*100ohms is
3.9V, which means that you can only ever drop Vpp to 9.9V.  That is
not adequate for a reliable programmer.  You need a full range from 0
to 13V that's why I was trying to find another way of controlling
Vpp.

Thanks, though,

- --Brendan

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2002\07\31@134506 by Dwayne Reid

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At 02:05 PM 7/30/02 -0700, Brendan Moran wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yep, except drive the zener from one of the HCT04 inverters.  That gives
you a solid 5V swing instead of whatever the parallel port gives you.  My
suggestion was based upon you having the HCT04 in circuit: a HI at the
printer port turns the transistor ON.  You also still need to ensure that
the transistor turns off.  You could use a 10k resistor from E-B but I
would prefer to use a 2k2 resistor from the junction of the zener & 1K
resistor to the +13V supply.  And, of course, don't forget the pull-down or
pull-up resistors at the inputs of the HCT04 to keep things safe while the
thing is unplugged from the parallel port.

   13V          13V
    |            |
    |            |
    |           |/E
    |      +----|   2n4403
    |      |    |\C
    \      /     |
    /      \     |
    \      /     \
    /2k2   \1k   /
    \      /     \  10k
    |      |     /
    +------+     \
           |     |
         /---/   |
          / \9.1V|
          ---    |
     HCT04 |     |
PP    |\   |    ---
 o-+--| >o-+   ///
   |  |/
  10K
   |
  gnd

dwayne

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2002\07\31@145544 by Brendan Moran

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> Yep, except drive the zener from one of the HCT04 inverters.  That
> gives you a solid 5V swing instead of whatever the parallel port
> gives you.  My suggestion was based upon you having the HCT04 in
> circuit: a HI at the printer port turns the transistor ON.  You
> also still need to ensure that the transistor turns off.  You could
> use a 10k resistor from E-B but I would prefer to use a 2k2
> resistor from the junction of the zener & 1K resistor to the +13V
> supply.  And, of course, don't forget the pull-down or pull-up
> resistors at the inputs of the HCT04 to keep things safe while the
> thing is unplugged from the parallel port.


Hmm... well, I don't think that there needs to be a 2k2 resistor.  In
fact, I think that it doesn't help much.  5+9.1 = 14.1  The zener
won't conduct under those circumstances.  I don't think I need to
worry about forcing the transistor off with a voltage, because,
(since it is a current based device and all) it should faithfully
amplify 0 current by its beta, thus biasing itself off.  I don't see
the need for the extra resistor.

When I wrote parallel port pin, I wasn't thinking.  I meant HCT04
pin.

As to pullup/down resistors, I don't think they're necessary.  I'm
trying to make this a minimal design.  Basic rule is don't atach it
to the PIC before you atach it to the parallel port.  Seems simple
enough to me.

- --Brendan

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2002\07\31@154853 by Dwayne Reid

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At 11:56 AM 7/31/02 -0700, Brendan Moran wrote:

>Hmm... well, I don't think that there needs to be a 2k2 resistor.  In
>fact, I think that it doesn't help much.  5+9.1 = 14.1  The zener
>won't conduct under those circumstances.

You are ignoring the leakage current of the zener.  Trust me - its worth
the effort of adding the resistor.

dwayne


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Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
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