Post by thread:[PIC]: Security of 16F87x

I searched through the mailing list archives and came up with a ton of discussion on security, and I know it's been covered several times over the past few years, but I can't seem to nail down exactly how secure the 16F87x series chips actually are. A lot of the past discussion has been over non-flash chips, or earlier F84 versions. Would anyone have any reservations about using these chips in production products? How easily are they defeated/read from, even with the code protection set? --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spam_OUTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

> I searched through the mailing list archives and came up with a ton of > discussion on security, and I know it's been covered several times over the > past few years, but I can't seem to nail down exactly how secure the 16F87x > series chips actually are. A lot of the past discussion has been over > non-flash chips, or earlier F84 versions. > > Would anyone have any reservations about using these chips in production > products? I don't, because code protection is very rarely an issue. Even if you handed a competitor all the binary code on a silver platter, it would usually not be much good to them. It would only be of use in an exact copy of your product, or would cost a significant effort to dissasemble and reverse engineer. It would usually be cheaper to create their own version. I can see cases where code protection could be an issue, but it would have to be a very high volume low margin product where piracy is a realy threat. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

With all respect, I will tell you my ideea about security of the pic hex code. I strongly believe that competition ( in the way is promoted in your old capitalist countries ) have two different results: a. a good one ( robots on Mars, etc ) b. a wrong one consisting in human incapacity of sharing ( code ) and telling to the friends about his extraordinary work. On long time this become a disease and is combined with a fear of competitors and also with loosing confidence in the human being living next door. And last one derives in protecting and protecting and patenting and so on, which is an usless activity. What's happent if another smart guy is copying your product ? If is located at North Pole than nothing. If is on the neighborhood than is tragedy ? If I'll copy your product I'll try to improve performances and not only to sell something. You'll not be pourless if the same product designed by you is manufactured also in Taiwan without to know that. At this point you'll probably reply about the american (?) laws. Laws are maked by people and aren't for all ( this is an invisible face of democracy... who made the law doesn't care about it... ) best regards, Vasile On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Drew Vassallo wrote: {Quote hidden}> I searched through the mailing list archives and came up with a ton of > discussion on security, and I know it's been covered several times over the > past few years, but I can't seem to nail down exactly how secure the 16F87x > series chips actually are. A lot of the past discussion has been over > non-flash chips, or earlier F84 versions. > > Would anyone have any reservations about using these chips in production > products? How easily are they defeated/read from, even with the code > protection set? > > --Andrew > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:04:32 -0500, you wrote: >> I searched through the mailing list archives and came up with a ton of >> discussion on security, and I know it's been covered several times over >the >> past few years, but I can't seem to nail down exactly how secure the >16F87x >> series chips actually are. A lot of the past discussion has been over >> non-flash chips, or earlier F84 versions. >> >> Would anyone have any reservations about using these chips in production >> products? > >I don't, because code protection is very rarely an issue. Even if you >handed a competitor all the binary code on a silver platter, it would >usually not be much good to them. It would only be of use in an exact copy >of your product, or would cost a significant effort to dissasemble and >reverse engineer. It would usually be cheaper to create their own version. > >I can see cases where code protection could be an issue, but it would have >to be a very high volume low margin product where piracy is a realy threat. Not always true - low volume high margin products in certain market areas can also have major security issues, as a few pirate copies could remove a large proportion of the potential market. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

>If I'll copy your product I'll try to >improve performances and not only to sell something. >You'll not be pourless if the same product designed by you is manufactured >also in Taiwan without to know that. This is only true in a perfect world. In our capitalist economy, people generally try to take good ideas from small or independent companies and make them cheaper to replace whatever product is currently on the market. Vasile, not everyone is interested in improving the performance of something. They're interested in how much MONEY they can make off of it. And the easier it is for them to develop the product, the more money they can make. Patents? If you're a very small company or a private individual, they don't mean diddly. If a fish salesman in Taiwan wanted to copy my idea, then that's fine. I'm not worried about that. But, if a larger, more established business in the market wants to steal my product and use their position in the market to make my idea cheaper and flashier, then you bet I'm worried. ANY security I can get is to my advantage as a small manufacturer in this case. --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Philosophically speacking, does not matter if your product was stolen by a poor fishman or a multimiliardare concern if you still don't know about... best, Vasile On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Drew Vassallo wrote: {Quote hidden}> >If I'll copy your product I'll try to > >improve performances and not only to sell something. > >You'll not be pourless if the same product designed by you is manufactured > >also in Taiwan without to know that. > > This is only true in a perfect world. In our capitalist economy, people > generally try to take good ideas from small or independent companies and > make them cheaper to replace whatever product is currently on the market. > Vasile, not everyone is interested in improving the performance of > something. They're interested in how much MONEY they can make off of it. > And the easier it is for them to develop the product, the more money they > can make. Patents? If you're a very small company or a private individual, > they don't mean diddly. > > If a fish salesman in Taiwan wanted to copy my idea, then that's fine. I'm > not worried about that. But, if a larger, more established business in the > market wants to steal my product and use their position in the market to > make my idea cheaper and flashier, then you bet I'm worried. ANY security I > can get is to my advantage as a small manufacturer in this case. > > --Andrew > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

I invested a considerable amount of effort in the PIC16F87X to build the micro-java Virtual Machine Chip. I was devestated when I realised that the reset vector was not protected. Given that the PIC16F87X can read its own memory regardless of the state of the protect bits it is simply a matter of writing a program to read all of the memory and pop it into the reset block.. thus the PIC16F87X memory protect is completely useless unless the whole of the memory is protected. This, I am pleased to say has been rectified in the PIC16F87X-A whereby microchip have now protected the reset vector. James .....caskaKILLspam.....virtualbreadboard.com {Original Message removed}