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'[PIC]: Practical car theft schemes'
2001\10\22@102951 by Lawrence Lile

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I'd like to re-open the topic of practical car theft prevention schemes.
This is a hot topic for me, as I had a nice, fancy, almost new and one month
old car stolen right out of my driveway this weekend.  Burns me up.

Without devolving into the underseat-knives-on-solenoids or high voltage
steering wheels silliness, I'd like to figure out how I'll modify my next
car so it can't be stolen, without spending big bucks,

Here's some ideas:

1. Interrupt the line to the starter solenoid with a switch or relay.
Either hide the switch in a wierd spot accessible to the driver, or connect
it to a coded keypad.

2.  Is there an electronic way to disable an automatic transmission?  Some
solenoid that engages something that could be disabled?

4.  Disable power to the distributor with a special switch.

5. Disable power to the electric fuel pump.

6. Affix a 555 driven transistor to the horn and stereo and activate it if
the driver doesn't enter the secret code within xxx seconds of starting the
car.


Now obviously, a real pro could defeat this stuff, but we're probably not
going to stop a pro anyway.   My car was not locked, and some kid probably
tried a few car doors, found one open,  jumped in, drove it down and pushed
it into the river, or sold it to a chop shop.


-- Lawrence Lile
Sr. Project Engineer
Salton inc. Toastmaster Div.
573-446-5661 Voice
573-446-5676 Fax

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2001\10\22@105519 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I'd like to re-open the topic of practical car theft prevention schemes.
> This is a hot topic for me, as I had a nice, fancy, almost new and one month
> old car stolen right out of my driveway this weekend.  Burns me up.

I feel your pain.  Sucks when you forget to lock it -- I assume you did
just forget, right?

> 1. Interrupt the line to the starter solenoid with a switch or relay.
> Either hide the switch in a wierd spot accessible to the driver, or connect
> it to a coded keypad.

Lotsa commercial systems do this...

> 2.  Is there an electronic way to disable an automatic transmission?  Some
> solenoid that engages something that could be disabled?

Depends on the car, I would imagine.  I know mine all have mechanical
links from shifter to transmission...  it would be easier to prevent the
engine from starting, I would think.  There are lots ofways to do that.

> 4.  Disable power to the distributor with a special switch.

Haven't seen a new car with a distributor in quite a while.  Most do have
a coil pack you could disable, but a lot now have individual coils for
each cylinder, fired by the engine computer.

> 5. Disable power to the electric fuel pump.

Very easy.

> 6. Affix a 555 driven transistor to the horn and stereo and activate it if
> the driver doesn't enter the secret code within xxx seconds of starting the
> car.

Plenty of commercial systems do that too, along with most of the above
items.  Of course none of that will stop a tow truck or flatbed if they
really want it.

> Now obviously, a real pro could defeat this stuff, but we're probably not
> going to stop a pro anyway.   My car was not locked, and some kid probably
> tried a few car doors, found one open,  jumped in, drove it down and pushed
> it into the river, or sold it to a chop shop.

If I were worried about my car, I'd start with the door locks...  then add
a dummy flashing red LED or two, code pad that disables fuel pump power
and coil pack power, plus maybe one or two other critical sensors like the
crankshaft position sensor.  My fuel injectors fire individually, so
disabling them would be a pain in the butt.  Last I'd add a LOUD horn
activated if the person opening the door doesn't enter the correct code in
some reasonable period of time.

Personally, I'd mount the code pad in a visible or at least easily
accesible spot, then bury the guts somewhere difficult to get to, with the
relays or whatever remotely monted.  Make it so that ripping out one part
doesn't defeat the system.  I have looked at some commercial systems, and
have not thought they were really worth the money.

Dale

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2001\10\22@112242 by J.Feldhaar

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Bad luck, Lawrence,

and I bother about my 11-yr old BMW... ;-)
About two years ago, I witnessed a demo by the Israel-based company OTI (on
track innovations), while I was working for the German subsidiary (better:
licensee) for LoJack Systems (basically a company that will find your car after
being stolen).
The OTI guys took one of the company Volkswagens, installed their gadgets, and
then we saw that this car was practically useless if the right security key was
not present. Their trick: the different circuit breakers communicate over the
standard 12V system inside ther vehicle, something like powerline
communications.
The _good_ point is: You may know this system is built into the car you are
trying to borrow - but you don't have one clue where all the breakers are
located, and you would have to dismantle pracically the whole car to find them -
no wires to follow as in traditional alarm systems.
The Israeli people have about the same number of cars stolen as do the Germans
per year (some 50000), but (Peter L. Peres may comment further...) in Germany we
have abt 40 M cars, in Israel there are 1.5 M cars.
In Israel your insurance company decides on the system put in your car,
otherwise you will not get insurance!
Best of all: This can be done with PICs!  ;-)

Greets
Jochen Feldhaar DH6FAZ


Lawrence Lile schrieb:
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> -- Lawrence Lile
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> Salton inc. Toastmaster Div.
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> 573-446-5676 Fax
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2001\10\22@115302 by Roman Black

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Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> I'd like to re-open the topic of practical car theft prevention schemes.
> This is a hot topic for me, as I had a nice, fancy, almost new and one month
> old car stolen right out of my driveway this weekend.  Burns me up.
>
> Without devolving into the underseat-knives-on-solenoids or high voltage
> steering wheels silliness, I'd like to figure out how I'll modify my next
> car so it can't be stolen, without spending big bucks,


Sorry to hear your car was stolen by the
forces of evil. Makes me very angry too.

I think the number one protection is that
you build a CUSTOM system that simply disables
the engine. No engine, no steal. :o)

Number two priority is to make lights flash
and horns etc when someone tampers, or gets
inside, this will reduce chances of them hanging
around and trying to defeat the security system.

Doing it yourself is best, ie custom, as the
good thieves have probably studied most of the
popular alarms and know which wire to connect
to what and how to defeat it. You need to put
your car in the "too hard" category, and on
that note a flashing led on the dash and some
"warning alarm fitted" stickers on the windows
will probably help a lot too.
-Roman

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2001\10\22@120333 by Lawrence Lile

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Now I suppose all the usual car power supply caveats apply:  Power supply
must take a two-battery jump or a reversed battery.  Pretty easy with a
series diode, small resistor, 12 volt zener and a 7805 chip.  12 Volt
relays, normally off (meaning the affected system is normally disabled) to
save power when the car is not running.

So I guess the thieves follow the wires to find the mechanisms.  Hopefully I
can hide the brains well enough to make them hard to locate.  Powerline
communications over car wiring sounds like nothing but trouble to me, so
I'll have to hide the wires as best I can.  Work them into a wire harness,
maybe.

Now the GPS option - I suppose this means a dedicated cell phone buried into
the car somewhere, with a little modem .This also means I'll have to pay $$$
a month for a cell phone connection or account.  Seeing as I don't even have
cell phone for my hip, I don't know how much this would cost.

:But say I get one of those grandma accounts that is just for emergencies,
really cheap per month if it is not used more than a few minutes. .  What
would be a good way to activate this gps/cell phone combo?  Say the operator
of the car has to punch in a code, or activate a hidden capacitive sensor in
the dash.  If he doesn't, and the car starts moving for any reason, the cell
phone dials my personal 800 number ( I have one).  and begins sending GPS
coordinates.  I suppose I'd also need to keep the capability of using a
modem on my home computer (all my modems are in a drawer somewhere..)  or a
quick way to send a web page........

Let's guess how much would all this cost to implement, up front and per
month charges?  Any way to do it that doesn't interface with a cell phone?
Radios? Would the antannaes have to be sticking out of the roof?  How to
disguidse them?

Another good theft control plan is to bash your car into a telephone pole,
paint each quarter panel several clashing colors, and add a large gaudy art
object on the roof.
--Lawrence




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2001\10\22@120526 by t F. Touchton

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Sorry to hear of your loss.

I've been doing a lot of thinking on this one.  Need to prevent the car
from being driven, and prevent it from being towed.

To prevent it from being driven a simple interlock on the fuel system or
ignition system will suffice.  An alarm system will put a time clock on a
thief.. make it so he doesn't have enough time to figure out the interlock.
Another way to do this is to allow the car to start, then shut down 30
seconds later or so.  Mentally, he is prepared for the "getaway".  When the
car ceases to run, he should be prone to abandon it (probably out on the
street).

To prevent it from being towed, I have always liked the valve in the brake
line trick.  Apply the brake very hard, then the valve closes locking the
brakes on.  Can't tow it if it doesn't roll.  This will also prevent it
from being driven.

I've often thought about using an RF transponder to let the car know you
are the correct person, and to deactivate the anti theft systems.  That
way, a thief cannot watch you to see how you disarm the alarm / interlock
system.

Scott F. Touchton




                   Lawrence Lile
                   <llile@TOASTMA       To:     @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
                   STER.COM>            cc:
                   Sent by: pic         Subject:     [PIC]: Practical car theft schemes
                   microcontrolle
                   r discussion
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                   <PICLIST@MITVM
                   A.MIT.EDU>


                   10/22/01 10:29
                   AM
                   Please respond
                   to Lawrence
                   Lile






I'd like to re-open the topic of practical car theft prevention schemes.
This is a hot topic for me, as I had a nice, fancy, almost new and one
month
old car stolen right out of my driveway this weekend.  Burns me up.

Without devolving into the underseat-knives-on-solenoids or high voltage
steering wheels silliness, I'd like to figure out how I'll modify my next
car so it can't be stolen, without spending big bucks,

Here's some ideas:

1. Interrupt the line to the starter solenoid with a switch or relay.
Either hide the switch in a wierd spot accessible to the driver, or connect
it to a coded keypad.

2.  Is there an electronic way to disable an automatic transmission?  Some
solenoid that engages something that could be disabled?

4.  Disable power to the distributor with a special switch.

5. Disable power to the electric fuel pump.

6. Affix a 555 driven transistor to the horn and stereo and activate it if
the driver doesn't enter the secret code within xxx seconds of starting the
car.


Now obviously, a real pro could defeat this stuff, but we're probably not
going to stop a pro anyway.   My car was not locked, and some kid probably
tried a few car doors, found one open,  jumped in, drove it down and pushed
it into the river, or sold it to a chop shop.


-- Lawrence Lile
Sr. Project Engineer
Salton inc. Toastmaster Div.
573-446-5661 Voice
573-446-5676 Fax

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2001\10\22@121818 by Dale Botkin

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> To prevent it from being towed, I have always liked the valve in the brake
> line trick.  Apply the brake very hard, then the valve closes locking the
> brakes on.  Can't tow it if it doesn't roll.

Bet me.  One of the guys who works for me was once a repo man.  They often
had to pull cars out of parking spaces that were backed in with the
parking brake set...  just hook it up and pull slowly, the tires will
slide, then winch it onto the flatbed.  That or jack it up and throw a
dolly under it.  Either way, if the thieves have a flatbed and some time
they WILL get the car.

Of course you could build in a nice little ADXL202 tilt sensor...  if the
tilt angle of the car changes significantly while it's not unlocked, raise
hell with the horn & lights to wake up the neighbors!  So much better than
a vibration sensor that will wake you up every time there's a
thunderstorm.

Dale

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2001\10\22@125311 by Roman Black

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Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> Another good theft control plan is to bash your car into a telephone pole,
> paint each quarter panel several clashing colors, and add a large gaudy art
> object on the roof.


Our car (mainly a work vehicle) is left
permanently filthy, with some empty cardboard
boxes and some scruffy looking bags etc on
the back seat. In most car parks it looks
like one of the worst cars there, no chance
of theft. :o)

Shame that the thing is insured for theft,
and at much more than what it would sell for.
Life is like that!
-Roman

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2001\10\22@130701 by Freddie Leaf

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> Now the GPS option - I suppose this means a dedicated cell phone buried into
> the car somewhere, with a little modem .This also means I'll have to pay $$$
> a month for a cell phone connection or account.  Seeing as I don't even have
> cell phone for my hip, I don't know how much this would cost.

Circuit Cellar Magazine did an article on tracking your vehicle after a theft
using GPS.  The article is in Circuit Cellar Magazine Issue 126 Jan. 2001 -
called "Where's Waldo ? Pinpointing Location by Interfacing with a GPS Receiver
( TF10 )".  You can get the article on-line at:
http://www.circuitcellar.com.

LAIPAC is the name of the company that makes the actual TF10 GPS unit. I also
bought their experimental board and sample PC based software.  I recommend
these tools to get you started.  The unit works great and the company is very
friendly and accommodating (I have no affiliation).   The only caution is that
the actual TF10 board uses a non-US connector, the pin spacing is not .1 inch.
I think it amy be a European connector.

http://www.laipac.com/msg4.htm


Good Luck





=====
Best Regards,
"If it can't be done with a PIC, it can't be done :+)"

__________________________________________________
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2001\10\22@131750 by David VanHorn

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At 10:05 AM 10/22/01 -0700, Freddie Leaf wrote:
> > Now the GPS option - I suppose this means a dedicated cell phone buried
> into
> > the car somewhere, with a little modem .This also means I'll have to
> pay $$$
> > a month for a cell phone connection or account.  Seeing as I don't even
> have
> > cell phone for my hip, I don't know how much this would cost.
>
>Circuit Cellar Magazine did an article on tracking your vehicle after a theft
>using GPS.  The article is in Circuit Cellar Magazine Issue 126 Jan. 2001 -
>called "Where's Waldo ? Pinpointing Location by Interfacing with a GPS
>Receiver
>( TF10 )".  You can get the article on-line at:
>http://www.circuitcellar.com.

If you're a ham, you use APRS.

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2001\10\22@143057 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Lawrence,

I'm very sorry to hear about the car theft. One thing I don't understand
about this whole discussion is this: aren't passive devices like "the club"
fairly effective? Essentially, nothing is really going to STOP someone from
taking your car, but since very few people use even simple deterrents, one
would think that such a mechanical device (which, AFAIK, requires a
steering wheel cutter to deal with) would cause most thieves to pass your
car up for an easier target.

Sean

At 11:01 AM 10/22/01 -0500, Lawrence Lile wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\22@153608 by Lawrence Lile

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What I'd like is something that makes it simple for me to lock up or unlock
the car, and difficult for a thief to unlock/start/move/or sell it.  The
club seems like a big hassle, and only stops them from driving it not towing
it.

There is a commercial tracking product called lojack  http://www.lojack.com  that
has a transmitter that is only activated by the cops, after you report your
car stolen.  They can track it from a police chopper.  I don't think there
is any coverage in my area, its mainly on the coasts.

I hear a towing thief can get your car in 60 seconds.

--Lawrence



{Original Message removed}

2001\10\22@161628 by Lawrence Lile

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What is APRS?

----- Original Message -----
From: "David VanHorn" <RemoveMEdvanhornspam_OUTspamKILLspamCEDAR.NET>
>
> If you're a ham, you use APRS.
>
> --
> Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org
>
> Got a need to read Bar codes?  http://www.barcodechip.com
> Bi-directional read of UPC-A, UPC-E, EAN-8, EAN-13, JAN, and Bookland,
with
> two or five digit supplemental codes, in an 8 pin chip, with NO external
parts.
>
> --
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>
>

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2001\10\22@171019 by Dale Botkin

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On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> What is APRS?

Automatic Position Reporting System.  You have a GPS receiver, ham
transmitter (usually 2 meter [144MHz] band) and a controller/modem called
a TNC.  The system sends a packet at user secified intervals giving your
exact location.

http://www.aprs.org/

Dale

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2001\10\22@215029 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hi all,


If the car is new, it has an ECU

if it has an ECU, disable power to it, or short out a few sensors to ground
(make it run like a pig). the only one you will not stop is it being towed
away.

Or the best idea, drive an old bomb. no one steels them ;o)

Regards,

Kat.

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2001\10\23@050645 by David Venz

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My brother has a weird system in his old '86 Ford Laser (Australia).
Engine won't start unless you touch a small inoccuously placed rivet with
your finger.  I admit I have no idea how this works.

Had a double-take when I first saw the subject-line, too - I thought, "Now
who's advocating Grand Theft Auto on our Piclist?" <g>

I'd have to disagree with the "no-one steals an old bomb" statement.  My
'84 Telstar is shabby and shot through with rust, but it got nicked and
used in a small-time robbery before being returned to the car-park it was
in and another Telstar stolen as the getaway car.  I think my club-lock
would have deterred this type of thief if I'd actually used it  :-/

Cheers,
-Dave.

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2001\10\23@090810 by Don Hyde

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>
> Or the best idea, drive an old bomb. no one steels them ;o)
>

Some years ago my parents had a very boring old Ford station wagon stolen.
The cops recovered it quickly, but my parents had a rough time getting it
back because it had been used in a bank robbery.  The thieves had been
looking for something inconspicuous.

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2001\10\23@091946 by Lawrence Lile

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But you have to have a HAM license to use it, no?

--Lawrence
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Botkin" <EraseMEdalespamEraseMEBOTKIN.ORG>
To: <@spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Practical car theft schemes


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2001\10\23@092342 by Lawrence Lile

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The 89 Toyota LE 4X4 van is STILL on the top ten stolen cars list.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Venz" <TakeThisOuTdavid.venz.....spamTakeThisOuTINVENSYS.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Practical car theft schemes


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2001\10\23@092556 by Kathy Quinlan

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Hmm

Here in Perth, I have no problem with my '81 Holden (GMH) station wagon. It
has the left hand side caved in from some little person who does not know
that coming off a private road onto a main road means you give way (must
have got her license from a wheeties packet)

mind you I pity anyone who tries to steal our car, the engine is on the way
out, as it the clutch, only waiting on her insurance company to write the
car off, although I want my immobiliser off the car (they are compulsory in
WA) as it is a nice home made one :o)

And to the people who say home made is best as the car thieves know which
colour wire to connect where, use the system mandatory in WA, all wires are
black :o) and dummy wires are run too that do absolutely nothing (and I hide
the module in places that took me 1/2 the day to get the dash out to get to
:o)



Regards,

Kat.
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{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@093326 by David VanHorn

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At 08:17 AM 10/23/01 -0500, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>But you have to have a HAM license to use it, no?

It's customary. :)

Really easy now in the US. Any piclister should be able to get this, if you
can write an ISR in the pic!

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2001\10\23@094840 by Lawrence Lile

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it's BAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

My wife found our van stashed in a dark alley a few blocks from our home, CD
player ripped out.  They took their time dissassembing the dashboard, so
that it was relatively easy to put back together.  Most thugs just rip them
with a crowbar, so we were relatively lucky.

After reassembling what was left of the dashboard, I began installing the
secret kill switches.  #1 disables the starter solenoid.  #2 is going to
disable either the ignition or the fuels pump.  #3 is going to be the honker
that goes off and STAYS going off if a hapless driver tries to start it
without the secret switches engaged.  It's already got electric locks, so #5
will probably have to be a PIC driven keypad to drive the electric locks.
Door locks will probably be dummies left in place to fill the hole, or maybe
I'll have them changed.

This is a ten year old car, qualifiying as a bomber, although the paint job
is OK.

I'm still in a state of shock.  You hardened cases on the coasts must be
used to this, but in Central Missouri, car theft is a very rare thing
indeed.  My dad never took the key out of his ignition from the day he
bought his pickup until the day he handed the key to the next owner.  He
actually yelled at me for doing this once: "Don't take that key outta there,
boy!  Somebody might need to use it!"   I've owned houses that didn't even
have locks, just a latch on the screen door.

The PIC keypad has several requirements:  1.  If it is ripped out, the thief
can't just short two wires and be in.  \
2. If the thief zaps it with a cattle prod (a common trick) it cannot be
damaged and fail with locks open.
3.  The code must be easy to change. 4.  3 strikes, you are out for 30
minutes to prevent attack dialing.  5. weatherproof.
6. Ugly as 50Kbytes of  spaghetti code.  This helps create the ambiance of a
vehicle not worth stealing becuase nobody would buy it.  7. Hard to see the
code being typed from a few feet away.  8.  EEprom for the key codes 9.
standard robust automotive power supply.

--Lawrence

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2001\10\23@101049 by Lawrence Lile

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Really?  No more morse code?


> Really easy now in the US. Any piclister should be able to get this, if
you
> can write an ISR in the pic!
>
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>
> Got a need to read Bar codes?  http://www.barcodechip.com
> Bi-directional read of UPC-A, UPC-E, EAN-8, EAN-13, JAN, and Bookland,
with
> two or five digit supplemental codes, in an 8 pin chip, with NO external
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>
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2001\10\23@102419 by David VanHorn

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At 09:07 AM 10/23/01 -0500, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>Really?  No more morse code?

Not for a tech licence, which gets you 6M, 2M (aprs), 220, 440, 902,
1296.... thru 300 GHz
I you want HF, you need 5 WPM which you only have to do once.


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2001\10\23@115405 by dale

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Yes -- but that's so simple my 12-year-old is working on his.  A Technician class license gives you all privileges on all bands above 30MHz with no Morse code requirement...  that's all you need, and the written exam is pretty basic.  The maximum required Morse speed for any US ham license is now 5 words per minute, and I suspect even that will go away before too long.

> But you have to have a HAM license to use it, no?
8<
> > > What is APRS?
8<
> > http://www.aprs.org/

Dale (N0XAS)
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2001\10\23@125445 by Philip Pemberton

picon face
Lawrence Lile <@spam@llilespam_OUTspam.....TOASTMASTER.COM> wrote:
> Now I suppose all the usual car power supply caveats apply:  Power supply
> must take a two-battery jump or a reversed battery.  Pretty easy with a
> series diode, small resistor, 12 volt zener and a 7805 chip.  12 Volt
> relays, normally off (meaning the affected system is normally disabled) to
> save power when the car is not running.
>
> So I guess the thieves follow the wires to find the mechanisms.  Hopefully
I
> can hide the brains well enough to make them hard to locate.  Powerline
> communications over car wiring sounds like nothing but trouble to me, so
> I'll have to hide the wires as best I can.  Work them into a wire harness,
> maybe.
Always works a treat - for best effect use wires that are the same colour as
others in the harness - preferably something with a nice high voltage on it
or something that will kill the engine if cut...

> Now the GPS option - I suppose this means a dedicated cell phone buried
into
> the car somewhere, with a little modem .This also means I'll have to pay
$$$
> a month for a cell phone connection or account.  Seeing as I don't even
have
> cell phone for my hip, I don't know how much this would cost.
Hide a prepay Nokia cellphone and Nokia Cellular DataCard Modem in the glove
compartment and rig it up to the battery. Get an old Toshiba Libretto
sub-notebook, remove the hard drive and replace it with a Compactflash or an
M-Systems DiskOnChip. Install DOS and the CDCM drivers and then set it to
make a call with its current telemetry every 30secs. Use some weird wiring
tricks to confuse the thieves.

> :But say I get one of those grandma accounts that is just for emergencies,
> really cheap per month if it is not used more than a few minutes. .  What
> would be a good way to activate this gps/cell phone combo?  Say the
operator
> of the car has to punch in a code, or activate a hidden capacitive sensor
in
> the dash.  If he doesn't, and the car starts moving for any reason, the
cell
> phone dials my personal 800 number ( I have one).  and begins sending GPS
> coordinates.  I suppose I'd also need to keep the capability of using a
> modem on my home computer (all my modems are in a drawer somewhere..)  or
a
> quick way to send a web page........
Cheap palmtop + cheap phone + simcard + Nokia modem + Garmin GPS system =
headache for thief.

> Let's guess how much would all this cost to implement, up front and per
> month charges?  Any way to do it that doesn't interface with a cell phone?
> Radios? Would the antannaes have to be sticking out of the roof?  How to
> disguidse them?
Nothing long-range unless you used microwaves...

Later.
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2001\10\23@130029 by Philip Pemberton

picon face
"Scott F. Touchton" <RemoveMEScott.Touchton@spam@spamspamBeGoneUS.JDSUNIPHASE.COM> said:
> I've been doing a lot of thinking on this one.  Need to prevent the car
> from being driven, and prevent it from being towed.
>
> To prevent it from being driven a simple interlock on the fuel system or
> ignition system will suffice.  An alarm system will put a time clock on a
> thief.. make it so he doesn't have enough time to figure out the
interlock.
> Another way to do this is to allow the car to start, then shut down 30
> seconds later or so.  Mentally, he is prepared for the "getaway".  When
the
> car ceases to run, he should be prone to abandon it (probably out on the
> street).
Simple way - cut the fuel pump's power. Engine starts, thief thinks he's got
away with it, car claps out 200yds down the road when the float tank is
empty and then flees the scene.

> I've often thought about using an RF transponder to let the car know you
> are the correct person, and to deactivate the anti theft systems.  That
> way, a thief cannot watch you to see how you disarm the alarm / interlock
> system.
Great idea!

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2001\10\23@131454 by Dale Botkin

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> > I've often thought about using an RF transponder to let the car know you
> > are the correct person, and to deactivate the anti theft systems.  That
> > way, a thief cannot watch you to see how you disarm the alarm / interlock
> > system.
> Great idea!

My car came with that from the factory -- embedded in the key.  It's even
got a provision for learning new transponder codes, as long as you have a
working key to do it.

Dale

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2001\10\23@135055 by Ian Jordan

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> Simple way - cut the fuel pump's power. Engine starts, thief thinks he's
got
> away with it, car claps out 200yds down the road when the float tank is
> empty and then flees the scene.

Not with fuel injection. My car dies within a second at idle if I pull the
fuse to the fuel pump. There is no reservoir or "bowl" in fuel injected
systems. If you want them to get 200yards, you're going to need a timer in
the system.

--Ian

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2001\10\23@154313 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
A good idea: cut the +battery cable under the hood and connect a 0.1Ohm
100A shunt across it, also a 100A contactor or switch. That car will never
start until the contactor is closed, although everything else ought to
work. Wonder how long it would take a 'professional' to find it.

There are many variations on this theme. I happen to know that automatic
gearboxes pull 8+A etc. The most important thing is to convince the b***
that it is hopeless. F.ex. allowing the engine to start and putting it out
immediately several times (as soon as he releases the clutch pedal). All
the time the interior lights on, horn and hifi blaring at full volume,
perhaps a flasher added inside too.

Peter

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2001\10\23@154330 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> The Israeli people have about the same number of cars stolen as do the
> Germans per year (some 50000), but (Peter L. Peres may comment
> further...) in Germany we have abt 40 M cars, in Israel there are 1.5
> M cars.

Apparently there is/was a car "reciclying" system in place that involves
stolen cars being dismatled in the neighbouring territories and returned
as certified spare parts...

Peter

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2001\10\23@162313 by Lawrence Lile

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Happens in Chicago, too.  A few years back, the City patrols were in on the
scam.  If your car stops on the highway, a frienldy city wrecker will tow it
out of traffic for you, supposedly to a city impoundment where you can pick
it up.  Often it is towed to a nearby dark alley, where it is stripped of
battery, tires, seats, etc.    Since it's a city emblem truck, nobody
questions them.  The driver splits the take with the parts crew...

My insurance company says they give no breaks for a car alarm system,
because they say car alarm systems do not deter thieves.  They just listen
to the sqwawking while merrily taking your stereo.  Meanwhile everybody else
ignores car alarms, because of all the false alarms.

Another friend worked as a night watchman.  He watched on the video monitor
as a thief smashed a window and yanked a stereo system in less than 180
seconds.  The cops got there in tiem to count the broken glass shards.

But today, I've got my car fixed so NOBODY can start it except me  (nya nya
nya) And I'm not broadcasting it online how I did it either....

--Lawrence


{Original Message removed}

2001\10\23@172205 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> if it has an ECU, disable power to it, or short out a few sensors to
> ground (make it run like a pig). the only one you will not stop is it
> being towed away.

Can't you leave the car in gear 1 ? That would preclude towing for a rear
wheel drive I think.

Peter

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2001\10\24@050122 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>2.  Is there an electronic way to disable an automatic transmission?  Some
>solenoid that engages something that could be disabled?

I have always thought that some sort of solenoid arrangement that stopped
the handbrake from being released would be helpful. In effect stop the
ratchet that holds the handbrake on from being released would be the way to
do it.

Another possibility may be to arrange it so that there is a similar
arrangement on the footbrake so that with the motor not running, a ratchet
on the pedal kept the brakes on after the pedal was pressed, but this would
need some serious safety analysis done on it so it did not lock the brakes
when you touch them to ease your speed down and slide off the highway
instead!

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2001\10\24@051647 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>To prevent it from being towed, I have always liked the valve in the brake
>line trick.  Apply the brake very hard, then the valve closes locking the
>brakes on.  Can't tow it if it doesn't roll.  This will also prevent it
>from being driven.

You are obviously not aware of how it is done in London - truck pulls up
beside your car and lifts it complete using container lift type equipment!
:)(

One of the reasons I keep out of London :)

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2001\10\24@052545 by Simon Stirley

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That's the only way you can shift a 4x4 that's left in gear too ..

{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\24@053155 by Gennette, Bruce

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face
I remember driving a ~1960 automatic Jag that had a 'traffic brake'.  With
the engine running, selector in drive, pressure in the brake line and the
vehicle stationary you could take your foot off the brake pedal because a
simple hydrolic logic circuit would hold the brakes on.  Touching the
accelerator released the system.

I loved it - 40 years ago.  Its a great idea that is sorely missed today,
especially with 40+ watts of high level brake lights in your face as you
creep through a traffic jam.  I wonder if some EE could perhaps develop a
PIC circuit to reproduce it ???  And/or include it as part of an anti-theft
system ?

Bye.

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\24@053547 by Simon Stirley

flavicon
face
.. or if you have ABS then force the modulator to activate which will lock
the brakes onto the wheels. Most handbrakes won't stop a car with power from
the engine applied anyway - only slow them a little until they burn out.

Simon

> {Original Message removed}

2001\10\24@054501 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>My car came with that from the factory -- embedded in the key.  It's even
>got a provision for learning new transponder codes, as long as you have a
>working key to do it.

My understanding of these systems is that it will only learn a new key if
you have the master key supplied with the car when you start the programming
process. You cannot use any existing working key to start the programming,
only the master.

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2001\10\24@091535 by dale

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face
> >My car came with that from the factory -- embedded in the key.  It's even
> >got a provision for learning new transponder codes, as long as you have a
> >working key to do it.
>
> My understanding of these systems is that it will only learn a new key if
> you have the master key supplied with the car when you start the programming
> process. You cannot use any existing working key to start the programming,
> only the master.

Nope - mine will allow programming for a new key using any existing valid key.  There was no designation of a "master" or anything else with the two keys supplied bythe factory,and I just checked the manual again to be sure.  It's a '98 Ford Mustang, by the way, not some fancy-schmancy Euro-thingie.  8-)

Dale
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2001\10\24@093018 by Quentin

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face
Thanks Dale
I must say may whole idea is to stay away from frame grabbers as they
are pretty expensive and I don't need 1/2 the speed they can handle.
After I've send my last email I did a bit of research and found out
about Firewire. Still need a PC, but no frame grabber.
Looks good.

Quentin

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2001\10\24@093845 by Quentin

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face
Ooops, sorry.... Wrong topic
This is what happens when you stop smoking, hehe
My work bench got teeth marks in it!

Quentin wrote:
>
> Thanks Dale
> I must say may whole idea is to stay away from frame grabbers

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2001\10\24@165211 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
This may be taking things a bit far for what is only a remote risk, but
what about a countermeasure which would detect when a car was being lifted
and would release a hub with long, telescoping, hardened steel rods. This
hub could be connected to the frame of the car with a steel cable. In other
words, when the thieves (literally, no pun intended)  lifted your car, it
would release this thing which would be spring loaded and would extend rods
which were, from one rod tip to the opposite rod tip, perhaps 8 feet long.
In order to still be able to take your car on their flatbed, they would
have to spend precious time trying to cut this thing free from it or
bend/dismantle it in some way, otherwise they would be dragging it behind
as they drove away (it would be too wide to neatly fit on the back of the
flatbed).

Sean

At 10:15 AM 10/24/01 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\10\24@171500 by m.craig

picon face
Could you imagine what it'd be like if that accidentally went off! you'd
never get the car home.

Mark Craig
spamBeGonem.craigspam_OUTspamRemoveMEntlworld.com
Glasgow
Scotland

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\24@172502 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
LOL! Well, first of all, it wouldn't be difficult to prevent it from
accidentally going off (how often in normal driving does the weight get
lifted from all four wheels for more than a second?) and you could also
have the connection between the cable and the car frame use a secure lock
which you had the key for (so YOU could disconnect it from the car, but the
thieves couldn't).

Sean

At 10:15 PM 10/24/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Could you imagine what it'd be like if that accidentally went off! you'd
>never get the car home.
>
>Mark Craig
>.....m.craigspamRemoveMEntlworld.com
>Glasgow
>Scotland
>
>{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: Practical car theft schemes'
2001\11\08@013204 by Ron Wilder
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face
What about 10 REALLY LOUD sirens wired up INSIDE the vehicle.  Make it so
uncomfortable that the thief doesn't want to stick around?
Ron

"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> >{Original Message removed}

2001\11\08@144948 by Benjamin Bromilow

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face
Hi all,

I saw a feature on Tommorow's World about a new alarm which doesn't just use
frequencies you can hear. Lower frequencies are also used. By "manipulating"
these lower frequencies, you cause a sensation of vertigo. Works by
transmission of vibrations down to the inner ear.... Apparently, even with
ear plugs in (ie so little noise) it makes the listener feel really ill.

They also showed a piece about how humans respond to brief bursts of white
noise by turning to look at it. They've attached a white noise burst
loudspeaker to a CCT camera and everylooks directly into it.... A PIR
detector triggers the white noise "click" when the person is in range.
Apparently, it is very very difficult (near impossible) to resist. They
reckon it is hardwired into the brain because a twig snapping is white
noise! They got volunteers and told them to walk down a corridor. However,
they told them that there would be a video camera somewhere along the
corridor and to not look into it. 95% still did regardless. Usually only for
a few hundred mS but enough to get a good shot of the face. Some didn't even
perceive the camera, it was that involuntary.

Ben


{Original Message removed}

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