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'[PIC]: PicPocket'
2000\10\31@192624 by Tony Nixon

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Hi all,

Still going with the PicPocket programmer. 6K of code now. I was going
to implement a small FAT system, but not sure if its worthwhile at this
stage. The chips are flash, so upgrading should be a snap anyway.

It now has user set verification voltages from 2V to 6V in 0.25V steps
and can be easily calibrated at anytime by the user.

I have an interface for the ICSP ready(?), but a few questions if anyone
can help.

The PIC's are supposed to be programmed with VccP at 5V, but can be
verified afterwards at lower or higher voltages.

How would this affect a target circuit that is designed to run on 2V?

Is the ISCP supposed to power the target circuit? I've got ~200 mA
available.

Should these problems be addressed by the target circuit designer?

TIA

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Best regards

Tony

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2000\10\31@193932 by Arthur Brown

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Nice to hear about thr progress Tony

First question I would say that if you are going to use 2volt in target you
should go lower on verifcation.
As to supplying power from the Programer to the target if you are only
programing the chip you only feed the chip and not the rest of the circuit.
you would only need to do this if you are planing to do ICD.

Regards Art

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\31@205759 by Bob Ammerman

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The ICD is powered by the target circuit for ICSP.

The PicStart Plus doesn't have enough current to power much of a target.
Typically you power the target separately for ICSP with the PicStart Plus.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\31@234406 by Dan Michaels

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Tony Nixon wrote:
.......
>It now has user set verification voltages from 2V to 6V in 0.25V steps
>and can be easily calibrated at anytime by the user.
.........
>The PIC's are supposed to be programmed with VccP at 5V, but can be
>verified afterwards at lower or higher voltages.
>
>How would this affect a target circuit that is designed to run on 2V?
>
>Is the ISCP supposed to power the target circuit? I've got ~200 mA
>available.
>

Hi Tony,
Some of these issues are touched in DS31028A - Section 28. In-Circuit Serial Programming™ (ICSP™). Says:

- you may have to totally isolate the PIC from the rest of the ckt
 during programming - if the ckt can only run at low Vcc, eg 3v,
 due to use of 3v chips/etc.

- most ICSP programmers have to be beefed up in order to guarantee   risetimes on Vcc and Vpp over the range of possible application   ckts. The doc shows a hi-current driver ckt for this.
Sounds difficult to achieve total versatility, in being able to handle virtually "any" app board operating over full Vcc range.
---------

I had another question regards your ckt. I assume [rightly??]
that you have some kinda control PIC on your programmer bd. So, when you vary verification voltage over 2 - 6v, are you also varying Vcc to the control PIC?
If no, then how are you interfacing to the pins of the target PIC,
to deal with the large Vcc differences? 2v <-> 5v and 5v <-> 6v.

If yes, then how did you choose a control PIC that can cover Vcc from 2-6v? Very few PICs will do this, except low-power devices running slow xtal freq.

best regards,
- dan michaels
===============

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'[PIC]: PicPocket'
2000\11\01@010843 by Tony Nixon
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Dan Michaels wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Some of these issues are touched in DS31028A - Section 28. In-Circuit
> Serial Programming™ (ICSP™). Says:

I'll download and check that out - thanks.


> Sounds difficult to achieve total versatility, in being able to
> handle virtually "any" app board operating over full Vcc range.

CUMP can do it - kidding ;-)

> I had another question regards your ckt. I assume [rightly??]
> that you have some kinda control PIC on your programmer bd. So,
> when you vary verification voltage over 2 - 6v, are you also
> varying Vcc to the control PIC?

No.

> If no, then how are you interfacing to the pins of the target PIC,
> to deal with the large Vcc differences? 2v <-> 5v and 5v <-> 6v.

I am using open collector drivers for RB6/7 with pullups to the VccP
rail.

The data pin (RB7) has an input circuit as well, so it can be read.

I tested the circuit over a 1 meter cable length and all seems ok.

According to the ICSP sheet mentioned above, RB6/RB7 'may' need
isolation depending on the target circuit connections. If that's the
case then my circuit should work. As you mention, you can't hope to
please everyone.


-- Best regards

Tony

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2000\11\01@121202 by Dan Michaels

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Tony Nixon wrote:

>> Sounds difficult to achieve total versatility, in being able to
>> handle virtually "any" app board operating over full Vcc range.
>
>CUMP can do it - kidding ;-)
>

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========================

>
>The data pin (RB7) has an input circuit as well, so it can be read.
>
>I tested the circuit over a 1 meter cable length and all seems ok.
>

You might check that whatever driver you are using to read back
RB7 will work properly when the target Vcc is set down near 2v.
Std logic like TTL or HC is not gonna work there. Adding a simple
BJT inverter would probably be ok, I would imagine.
==============


>According to the ICSP sheet mentioned above, RB6/RB7 'may' need
>isolation depending on the target circuit connections. If that's the
>case then my circuit should work. As you mention, you can't hope to
>please everyone.
>

Obviously, the target board design people wanting to do ICSP have
to be cognizant of the relevant issues, and design their boards
accordingly. Publishing the reqs with your programmer will help
guarantee compatibility.

best regards,
- danM
==============

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2000\11\01@150222 by Dan Michaels

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Tony Nixon wrote:
........
>It now has user set verification voltages from 2V to 6V in 0.25V steps
>and can be easily calibrated at anytime by the user.
>
......
>The PIC's are supposed to be programmed with VccP at 5V, but can be
>verified afterwards at lower or higher voltages.
>

Hi again Tony,

Another potential hazard occurred to me. If the programmer does
power the target during ICSP [which you apparently will have to
do if you want to both program at 5v and then test over 2-6v],
it is likely that the programmer will be back-driving current
into the v.reg on the target bus.

I dealt with this problem on the new PIC'40 SBC that I am producing
by having a jumper for isolating the v.reg from the bus. You might
want to suggest something similar in your PP ops manual.

BTW, anyone got a good feel for how a v.reg reacts when you
power it up from the wrong direction - or otherwise drive its
ouput node higher than its input node?
[proactive response --> hmmm, just as I thought].

regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.users.uswest.net/~oricom
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2000\11\02@040924 by Alan B. Pearce

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>BTW, anyone got a good feel for how a v.reg reacts when you
>power it up from the wrong direction - or otherwise drive its
>ouput node higher than its input node?

7800 and 7900 series ones I had occasion to do this to put their legs in the air
in disgust and died.

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2000\11\02@042449 by Michael Rigby-Jones
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I know for a fact that there is a circuit in our lab that uses a 7805 and it
has been connected to a 5 V supply oon the output side of the reg for at
least a couple of years with no adverse affects.  Wouldn't recommend it
though out of principle.

Mike

> {Original Message removed}

2000\11\03@010553 by Tony Nixon

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Hi all,

Just did a time test on the PicPocket.

PIC16C74

Transfer 4K HEX code from PC to I2C EPROM- 14 seconds
Now can be used any time


Blank test
Program and verify 4K of code + fuse
Verify at lower Vcc
Verify at upper Vcc

40 seconds


Read 4K back and store to I2C EEPROM - 8 seconds.

Verify at 5V only - 7 seconds

Transfer 4K HEX code from I2C EEPROM to PC - 7 seconds.


Not too bad considering the LCD display is being updated every 16 words
to keep the user informed of the progress.

Should be able to squeeze in 5 programs up to 8K each into the I2C
memory.


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Tony

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2000\11\03@105701 by Dan Michaels

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Tony Nixon wrote:

>Just did a time test on the PicPocket.
.........
>
>Not too bad considering the LCD display is being updated every 16 words
>to keep the user informed of the progress.
>

Hi Tony, how large is the LCD and what are you displaying on it?

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2000\11\03@112218 by Andrew Kunz

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Tony,

Does your programmer support control of RB3 for F87x?

Andy

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2000\11\03@115201 by Bob Ammerman

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You mean you're not multitasking the LCD updates so that they don't slow
anything down? :-)

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2000\11\05@165204 by Tony Nixon

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Andrew Kunz wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> Does your programmer support control of RB3 for F87x?
>
> Andy
>
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Hi Andy,

Yes, I have placed an open collector output available on the ISCP
connector for whatever use. It is active low when VccP comes on.

Might be useful for also pulling down the OSC1 pin.


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Tony

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2000\11\05@165546 by Tony Nixon

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Dan Michaels wrote:
>
> Tony Nixon wrote:
>
> >Just did a time test on the PicPocket.
> .........
> >
> >Not too bad considering the LCD display is being updated every 16 words
> >to keep the user informed of the progress.
> >
>
> Hi Tony, how large is the LCD and what are you displaying on it?
>
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2 X 16

There are many nested menus for the programmer functions as you might
imagine. During programming etc, it basicly shows what ROM location the
programmer is referencing.

Plus it shows the dissassembled/modified code.

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Tony

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