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'[PIC]: Panel LCDs'
2003\02\25@075249 by Jinx

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Does anyone have experience driving a panel LCD with
other than a 16C9xx ? I've a project in mind that could use
these as they're cheaper (and have bigger numerals) than
a DIP type. The one I'm trying to back-engineer has 13
connections through a zebra strip, which would replace a
40 pin wide DIP display and segment driver IC (ICM7211)

So far I've looked at AN658, which at first glance seems
instructive, and the 16C9xx datasheet but the waveforms,
particularly the stepped voltages, aren't quite as I see them
on the display I'm testing. The Hitachi LCD manual is some
help in this regard though

I'm just wondering if it's possible to use something like an
F877 or 18F to do this. Early days and still crash-coursing
so any tips appreciated

TIA

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2003\02\25@082501 by Ray Gallant

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <.....joecolquittKILLspamspam@spam@CLEAR.NET.NZ>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: [PIC]: Panel LCDs


{Quote hidden}

I could be off base here, but if you are trying to drive a LCD glass
directly, I have done that and released the code.  Maybe that could help.
Regards, {slewrate}

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2003\02\25@083957 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 01:52 AM 2/26/2003 +1300, you wrote:
>Does anyone have experience driving a panel LCD with
>other than a 16C9xx ? I've a project in mind that could use
>these as they're cheaper (and have bigger numerals) than
>a DIP type. The one I'm trying to back-engineer has 13
>connections through a zebra strip, which would replace a
>40 pin wide DIP display and segment driver IC (ICM7211)
>
>So far I've looked at AN658, which at first glance seems
>instructive, and the 16C9xx datasheet but the waveforms,
>particularly the stepped voltages, aren't quite as I see them
>on the display I'm testing. The Hitachi LCD manual is some
>help in this regard though
>
>I'm just wondering if it's possible to use something like an
>F877 or 18F to do this. Early days and still crash-coursing
>so any tips appreciated

You can do it, and  it may be practical in some cases. You might want
to look at the MSP430 series if you have not already, however.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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2003\02\25@085414 by Chris Loiacono

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> Does anyone have experience driving a panel LCD with
> other than a 16C9xx ?

yes, but since this has been a "round tuit" project for me, I've never had
complete success. I keep going back to it from time to time... if you know
what I mean.

I've a project in mind that could use
{Quote hidden}

I have tried similarly, but after one attempt with a strip-type went back to
pins and TAB types. You are ambitious indeed!

It requires the long-version dta sheet for the particular panel you are
using, which means knowing the manufacturer. If you've started with a part
hacked out of something, it's hard to know the number of backplanes and the
required voltages. I have admittedly done some damage this way.
>
> I'm just wondering if it's possible to use something like an
> F877 or 18F to do this. Early days and still crash-coursing
> so any tips appreciated

I'd be glad to share some of the effort with you - I would love to have the
ability to do the same. What panel are you working with?

One of the options I came pretty close with was to use a chip on glass
panel. This eliminates the board space for the driver, including the divider
and puts it into a tiny lead-frame sized thingy on the glass.

I have found these to be almost as cost effective. One graphical panel I
have is from Solomon Systech and the datasheet, while long and confusing
does show how the chip can be set to make a myriad of voltages and the
device set in a number of different MUX ratios & freq's.

May be a bit easier and quicker, still w/o the great expense.

C

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2003\02\25@090051 by Chris Loiacono

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> You can do it, and  it may be practical in some cases. You might want
> to look at the MSP430 series if you have not already, however.
>

Agreement on the MSP430. I've sat in their sales seminars and watched how
simple it is for a C programmer with MSP430's. Only their high-end parts
include the LCD driver though - otherwise it wouldn't be much different than
doing so with a PIC.

It is a high-value item for them, and for developers too evidently. I tried
to swap off both a low end and a mid-range dev kit for one of the kits for
the high end chips and found no takers.....it seems the parts with
integrated LCD driver are by far most popular.

m'chip should have taken notice of this by now.....would be nice to see an
LCD driver on a PIC...!

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2003\02\25@095654 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 09:00 AM 2/25/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>m'chip should have taken notice of this by now.....would be nice to see an
>LCD driver on a PIC...!

There is the *one*, of course. I get the impression they don't want to
try to compete against all the myriad  mask-ROM bare-die parts that are
used in cheap consumer electronics. Too price-sensitive a market for them.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2003\02\25@104645 by Olin Lathrop

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> m'chip should have taken notice of this by now.....would be nice to see
> an LCD driver on a PIC...!

You mean like the 16C9xx?


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\02\25@111601 by Chris Loiacono

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OK, so you guys proved my ignorance once again...that is an unfamiliar part
for me...

So, what...am I supposed to know everything? ;)
The more I learn, I realize how much more I have to learn.


> You mean like the 16C9xx?

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2003\02\25@112821 by Lawrence Lile

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>So, what...am I supposed to know everything? ;)

Engineers are supposed to know quite a lot about a very little, and better
engineers know more and more about less and less until they know
everything about nothing.

Technicians are supposed to know a little about many things, and better
technicians know less and less about more and more until they know nothing
about everything.

Our bosses and managers  think they know everything about everything but
when technicians and engineers get done baffling them with technobabble
they know nothing about nothing.


On a serious note, and to keep the subject on PICs so I don't have to
change the topic tag,

Apparently MCHIP has come out with an app note about using basically any
PIC as an LCD driver, and achieving the 1/3-2/3 voltages on the LCD pins
through PWM.  Has anybody used this successfully?

I have been campaigning for a while that MCHIP should come out with more
integrated LCD drivers, and this may be the trick that does it, a virtual
software on-chip LCD driver.

-- Lawrence Lile





Chris Loiacono <chrisEraseMEspam.....MAIL2ASI.COM>
Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
02/25/2003 10:15 AM
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       Subject:        Re: [PIC]: Panel LCDs


OK, so you guys proved my ignorance once again...that is an unfamiliar
part
for me...

So, what...am I supposed to know everything? ;)
The more I learn, I realize how much more I have to learn.


> You mean like the 16C9xx?

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2003\02\25@155600 by Jinx

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This is the cheap LCD clock I'm having a stab at

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/glasslcd.html

and a couple of sample waveforms, common and segment. I'm
still cataloguing phase relationships and the multiplexing. The
bottom picture is a grab of the display showing 12 blank blank.
Glitchy to say the least

There's a 1.5V button cell for the clock and one for the LED. 13
control lines is within cooey of a small PIC but the fly in the
ointment is having a keypad on the same port lines as the LCD
drive. This is possible with a standard alphanumeric because
the display is static between writes so data lines can double as
inputs but this would probably mess up the display on a direct-
drive LCD. The first hurdle to get over is creating those low
bipolar volatges

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2003\02\25@160537 by Mike Harrison

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It is usually easy to figure out how many commons an LCD has - the commons are usually on the glass
plane which doesn't have the connections to it (probably the rear in this unit), and are connected
to the connection plane by tiny dots of silver paint, which are usually easy to see if nothing is
obscuring the front surface of the glass - if you take the glass out of the bezel you should be able
to see them.

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:54:27 +1300, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\25@163229 by Ray Gallant

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It's fun, have been there with 1/2 bias, 1/2 duty cycle! Regards, {slewrate}
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <joecolquittSTOPspamspamspam_OUTCLEAR.NET.NZ>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Panel LCDs


{Quote hidden}

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2003\02\25@163652 by Ray Gallant

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Measure the unit's glass contacts with a scope without the glass attached.
Ground should be easy to find.

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\25@164931 by Jinx

face picon face
> It's fun, have been there with 1/2 bias, 1/2 duty cycle!

> Regards, {slewrate}

Yet to verify, but looks like it may be possible with a 3V supply.
Segment drives would be simple pin ons/offs and Vref (F628)
to generate the stepped wave. As LCDs use such little power
Vref should be low enough impedance

I'll of course be r-m-w aware (!!!) because of segment capacitance

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2003\02\25@192434 by Chris Loiacono

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I couldn't help but notice the epoxy blob on the back of the clock board in
your photo. It would seem that in this COB arrangement there would (of
necessity)_ be a driver under that blob that converts all the voltages as
needed. The bummer is that there's probably no way to separate it's inputs
from the clock logic outputs....
>
> This is the cheap LCD clock I'm having a stab at
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/glasslcd.html

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2003\02\25@193141 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 07:25 PM 2/25/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I couldn't help but notice the epoxy blob on the back of the clock board in
>your photo. It would seem that in this COB arrangement there would (of
>necessity)_ be a driver under that blob that converts all the voltages as
>needed. The bummer is that there's probably no way to separate it's inputs
>from the clock logic outputs....

It's a single clock chip, with LCD driver one board. One die. So, yes,
without some pretty fancy equipment you'll not be connection to the
controller.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2003\02\26@005610 by Chris Loiacono

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I've looked for parts, even to accomplish what Jinx has done with the Seiko
display and 7211 - but can't find these parts thru any of the distributors I
normally buy from...I don't suppose that finding a NZ source would help
much.....then again, he may say that he gets them elsewhere....

I have a couple of product designs hung up on the displays - I couldn't get
7 segment LED's to cut it in the luminosity dept. for outdoor use...

Where in the US could I find small quantities of 7 seg LCD's w/ compatible
drivers????
> It's a single clock chip, with LCD driver one board. One die. So, yes,
> without some pretty fancy equipment you'll not be connection to the
> controller.

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2003\02\26@005616 by Roman Black

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Jinx wrote:
>
> This is the cheap LCD clock I'm having a stab at
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/glasslcd.html
>
> and a couple of sample waveforms, common and segment.
> The first hurdle to get over is creating those low
> bipolar volatges


RC integrator and bi-directional PIC pin.
:o)
-Roman

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2003\02\26@025545 by Matt Pobursky

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On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:00:38 -0500, Chris Loiacono wrote:
> > You can do it, and  it may be practical in some cases. You might
> > want to look at the MSP430 series if you have not already, however.
> > 

> Agreement on the MSP430. I've sat in their sales seminars and watched
> how simple it is for a C programmer with MSP430's. Only their high-
> end parts include the LCD driver though - otherwise it wouldn't be
> much different than doing so with a PIC.

Look at the MSP430F412/413 parts. US$5.51/$3.43 qty. 1/100 and
US$5.58/$3.76 qty. 1/100 from Digikey. Both in stock. They also stock
the higher-end 'F43x and 'F44x parts. Nice parts, I've been using them
a lot lately.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems
(former 16C92x user...)

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2003\02\26@075625 by Ray Gallant

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There is released code for 1/2 bias 1/2 DC as seen in the picklist.  It may
be of help. http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/index.htm

Search for lcd glass.
Regards, {slewrate}

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\26@161632 by Jinx

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> There is released code for 1/2 bias 1/2 DC as seen in the picklist.
> It may be of help. http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/index.htm

Yes, thanks very much, it is helpful

But ;-)

I was hoping to use the F628 or similar, but the I/O count is too high,
(forgot about the anti-phase COM) so it'll have to be a larger PIC. I'll
need to look into prices, MOQs etc else it defeats the intention of
cost-cutting, not just doing it a different way for the same money, sigh

However, I'll definitely investigate your project with an F877, and to
make it all worthwhile look around for the best/biggest bang-for-
buck clock-style LCD. If there is to be any increase in costs then it
should be where it matters to the user

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'[PIC]: Panel LCDs'
2003\05\28@203847 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.
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I have done it with a limited number of segments and I know Jason W. has
built a whole series of products using the trick. It works fine but be
careful during debug since you will bias some segments with DC at that time.
Larry G. Nelson Sr.

At 10:27 AM 2/25/03 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Larry G. Nelson Sr.
L.NelsonEraseMEspamieee.org
http://www.mchipguru.com

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2003\05\29@103707 by Jason Wolfson

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Thanks for the plug Larry! I owe you a beer at the Masters!

I do 3:1 mux with 1/2 bias all the time for simple 7 segment displays
with a few icons. I've done over 70 segments using a serial to parallel
chip to get more segment drive outputs.

The secret is simple, use a resistor divider network on the output pins
driving the commons. Make it an output and high and you have 5V, output
low = 0V, make it an input and you have 2.5V. Use a lookup table to
equate the segments to the number or letter you want to display.

Check out http://www.heatpress.com/dc.html and check out the "State of the art
control". That's one of my designs using this technique.

It's a great cheap way of doing an output display. A PIC 6 resistors and
a cheap LCD panel and you have a complete display. I haven't done the
PWM method for higher than 2:1 bias's.

Jason

>{Original Message removed}

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