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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: PICList in danger? We need a change!'
2003\08\01@064315 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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Hi guys,

In my humble opinion, I think we should strongly consider changing the
format to more of a "bulletin board" type format. I personally would
stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!

I would be happy to setup and run good PHP based bulletin board such as
http://www.phpbb.com/, and I think the bandwidth would be far less than
an email list. We could log on once a day, check only the forums that
interest us - IE: EE, PIC, etc. or simply click on a users name to see
all posts by them...

But the bandwidth does cost $$$ and I think that a user pays system
would have merit. $1 per month sounds more than reasonable for all the
great help on this list.

Just my 2c worth! :-)

Regards,

Sean

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2003\08\01@065058 by Mike Harrison

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:43:17 +1000, you wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>In my humble opinion, I think we should strongly consider changing the
>format to more of a "bulletin board" type format. I personally would
>stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
Why ?

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2003\08\01@070014 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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> Why ?

Past experience

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2003\08\01@070222 by Mike Harrison

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:58:42 +1000, you wrote:

>> Why ?
>
>Past experience
Of what ?

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2003\08\01@070435 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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>> Past experience
> Of what ?

Using Yahoo! Groups!

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2003\08\01@074241 by

picon face
I don't remember seeing anything about Yahoo under the [PIC]
tag ? Was it sent uner the [Admin] tag ? What was the problem ?

Personaly I don't like the ads added to all messages and
web pages of Yahoo's origin...

Jan-Erik.



Sean Alcorn wrote:

> In my humble opinion, I think we should strongly consider changing the
> format to more of a "bulletin board" type format. I personally would
> stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!

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2003\08\01@083022 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I would be happy to setup and run good PHP based bulletin board such as
> http://www.phpbb.com/, and I think the bandwidth would be far less than
> an email list. We could log on once a day, check only the forums that
> interest us - IE: EE, PIC, etc. or simply click on a users name to see
> all posts by them...

One thing I like about the PIClist is that it comes at me without me
having to "log on" or do anything else.  I do have a separate mail
identity set up for it in Outlook Express so I can keep PIClist mail from
my other mail.  This allows me to very quickly (usually a couple of
seconds: CTRL-ALT-O brings up Outlook Express, ALT-F, S, down arrow, ENTER
switches to the PIClist identity.  Now it fetches mail and shows it to me
automatically).  This is so fast I can do it whenever I've got a minute or
two waiting on a build, on telephone hold, etc.

> But the bandwidth does cost $$$ and I think that a user pays system
> would have merit. $1 per month sounds more than reasonable for all the
> great help on this list.

Reasonable yes, but not pratical.  $12/year certainly wouldn't break me,
but I'd be outta here immediately (and I suspect many others too) if
anyone tried to collect money from me.  Occasionally I think I should
unsubscribe anyway because sometimes I spend more time on the PIClist than
I should.  Yes I know the bandwidth costs money, but it just doesn't feel
right to pay for it.  I can't justify this position economically, and
maybe it's not even rational, but I won't pay to be on the PIClist.


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2003\08\01@084023 by Vasile Surducan

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> unsubscribe anyway because sometimes I spend more time on the PIClist than
> I should.

 I had this feeling too. So I'm wandering what's new here after almost
one half year being unsubscribed... I saw Olin's presence, and I'm glad
he's OK. I hope the other piclisters too.

Vasile

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2003\08\01@091015 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff wrote:

> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!

Me too.  In a heartbeat.

> I would be happy to setup and run good PHP based bulletin board such as
> http://www.phpbb.com/, and I think the bandwidth would be far less than
> an email list. We could log on once a day, check only the forums that
> interest us - IE: EE, PIC, etc. or simply click on a users name to see
> all posts by them...

I use PHPBB...  however, one of the things I really like about the list is
its delivery via email.  I use a few web based forums and would not like
them for this list.  Call me a Luddite, I guess.

> But the bandwidth does cost $$$ and I think that a user pays system
> would have merit. $1 per month sounds more than reasonable for all the
> great help on this list.

Well, it would certainly cut down on all the message traffic anyway.  I
suspect about 20% of the users would stay, if that many.

Dale
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2003\08\01@091838 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Vasile Surducan wrote:

>   I had this feeling too. So I'm wandering what's new here after almost
> one half year being unsubscribed... I saw Olin's presence, and I'm glad
> he's OK. I hope the other piclisters too.

Vasile!  Welcome back.  In answer to your question, not much new.

Dale
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2003\08\01@092508 by Nigel Orr

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pic microcontroller discussion list <> wrote on Friday, August 01, 2003
1:31 PM:

>> I would be happy to setup and run good PHP based bulletin board such
>> as http://www.phpbb.com/, and I think the bandwidth would be far
>> less than an email list. We could log on once a day, check only the
>> forums that interest us - IE: EE, PIC, etc. or simply click on a
>> users name to see all posts by them...
>
> One thing I like about the PIClist is that it comes at me without me
> having to "log on" or do anything else.

I agree with that, I wouldn't bother reading if it was on a web page.  I
typically download email offline and read it when I get time, I wouldn't be
even slightly interested in reading it on a web browser.

>> But the bandwidth does cost $$$ and I think that a user pays system
>> would have merit. $1 per month sounds more than reasonable for all
>> the great help on this list.
>
> Reasonable yes, but not pratical.  $12/year certainly wouldn't break
> me, but I'd be outta here immediately (and I suspect many others too)

Again, I'd be the same.  Piclist has undoubtedly saved me time and effort
over the years, but it has cost me time and effort too.  If I was being
charged to contribute, I would lose interest overnight, even though I would
miss most aspects of it, a lot.  Like Olin, I realise that may be
irrational, but it would tend to penalise those who answer more than they
ask, and they are among the most valuable list members.

I'm not sure why this discussion came about, I seem to have missed some
messages somewhere, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a piclist
member (or even microchip- this must get them at least some sales?) who
could provide list hosting services if/when the kind folks at mit.edu
can't.  Alternatively, it could move to usenet, even 'stealing' space on
one of the groups with [PIC] headers etc would be preferable.

There are lots of good ways to run discussion groups (and most have been
around for decades!), 'the web' isn't one, at least not yet.

Nigel
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2003\08\01@092848 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
>> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
>
> Me too.  In a heartbeat.

Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?


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2003\08\01@094148 by Mike Harrison

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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:27:06 -0400, you wrote:

>>> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
>>
>> Me too.  In a heartbeat.
>
>Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
>talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?

It came from the possibility mentioned in the message that started all this of the list closing
down. The gist was simply that _IF_ closing down the current system was the only option, moving it to
Yahoo would be better than closing it down as it would provide a very similar service to th epresent
one. For some reason some people have some objection in principl to using Yahoo, but the reasons for this
are still somewhat unclear.


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2003\08\01@095148 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Friday, Aug 1, 2003, at 23:27 Australia/Sydney, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
> talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?

There has been 135 posts on this issue, Olin. Some with [OT:]
(incorrect tag), some with half a tag ] and others with [PIC]:

Sean

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On Friday, Aug 1, 2003, at 23:27 Australia/Sydney, Olin Lathrop wrote:


<excerpt><fixed>Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't
heard anyone

talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?

</fixed></excerpt><fixed>

There has been 135 posts on this issue, Olin. Some with [OT:]
(incorrect tag), some with half a tag ] and others with [PIC]:


Sean</fixed>


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2003\08\01@095149 by

picon face
I am a "user" of at least one other mail-list hosted at Yahoo.
(It's a local astronomy club)

It works, but (in the beginning at least) each message had an
add-footer added by the Yahoo servers. This is an (old) example :

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Stock for $4
and no minimums.
FREE Money 2002.
us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/2.XolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

But, I havn't seen these lately, I don't know why. It *might* have
something to do with if your are a paying customer to Yahoo or not...

Besides of this, *I* can't see any major problem as a *user*
with the Yahoo groups...

Jan-Erik.



Mike Harrison wrote :

> For some reason some people have some objection in principl
> to using Yahoo, but the reasons for this are still somewhat unclear.

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2003\08\01@100434 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> It came from the possibility mentioned in the message that started all
> this of the list closing down.

I never saw that message.  Why would the list need to close down?  Is MIT
getting tired of the bandwidth useage?


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2003\08\01@100639 by Dave Tweed

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Mike Harrison <.....mikeKILLspamspam@spam@WHITEWING.CO.UK> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:27:06 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >>> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
> >>
> >> Me too.  In a heartbeat.
> >
> >Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
> >talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?
>
> It came from the possibility mentioned in the message that started all
> this of the list closing down.

Which went out under the [OT:] tag, so many people like Olin never saw it.

Odd thing to do for a message titled "PICList in danger. Calling all members."

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2003\08\01@100849 by Paul Hutchinson

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The thread started on the [OT] channel a couple of days ago.
To summarize (heavily) what I've read, see the archives if you want the
details. Admins/anyone please correct me if I get any of this summary wrong.

MIT is forcing a change to new mail list software.

All the Admins are extremely overloaded already and can't give the extra
time to make the change.

It was suggested, by Jory IIRC, that maybe it is time to let PIClist expire.

James posted a message to [OT] stating the problem and requesting new Admin
volunteers.

In typical PIClist fashion :-), this immediately prompted lots of
suggestions for alternate ways of doing the PIClist including Yahoo Groups,
Microchip support, paid subscriptions, newsgroup, etc....

A further message from James clarified what an Admin needs to do.

So, from what I remember reading, basically the important message is the
Admins need someone to volunteer one hour per day seven days a week to keep
PIClist going.

AFAIK, no one has yet volunteered.

Paul

> {Original Message removed}

2003\08\01@110234 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
>talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?

It all started under an OT tag, and iirc you do not get that.

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2003\08\01@114345 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > It came from the possibility mentioned in the message that
> > started all this of the list closing down.
>
> I never saw that message.  Why would the list need to close
> down?  Is MIT getting tired of the bandwidth useage?
>

  No, MIT is getting tired of paying electricity bills for old
VMA systems, I think.
  By the way, Mailman is reported to have a lot of issues with
the super-extra-turbo-glorious MS software, particularly with
Outlooks. Hey, funny days are coming, will you keep on teaching
newbies to do impossible with their printed-quotable?

Mike.

P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know? My vocabulary
is weak :-) (Neil, could you please do not comment :-)))

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2003\08\01@120006 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
> tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know?

In this case it refers to the bandwidth used up by the PIClist.  In other
words, bandwidth MIT is paying for and giving to the PIClist for free.


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2003\08\01@121459 by Tim Webb

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We are probably not helping much right now by talking [OT] in [PIC] and using unnecessary bandwidth...

Better yet, if it's a cost savings thing and this place is called the "PICList", why not just terminate all topics other than [PIC]? (For example: [OT], [BUY], [AD], [EE], [SX], & [AVR])  I am sure those other topics are nice, but maybe they should be funded somewhere else.



{Original Message removed}

2003\08\01@122742 by Picdude

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On Friday 01 August 2003 10:42, Mike Singer scribbled:
> P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
> tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know? My vocabulary
> is weak :-) (Neil, could you please do not comment :-)))

Do you mean me?  If so, why?  Do you think I'll poke fun at your English?  If so, I cannot see why you'd think that.  Are you confusing me with someone else?  Or did you mean some other Neil?

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\08\01@165010 by Mike Singer

picon face
Neil wrote:
> > P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
> > tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know? My vocabulary
> > is weak :-) (Neil, could you please do not comment :-)))
>
> Do you mean me?  If so, why?  Do you think I'll poke fun at
> your English?  If so, I cannot see why you'd think that.  Are
> you confusing me with someone else?  Or did you mean some other
>  Neil?

Hi, Neil.
Take it easy. This was a joke on Olin's "useage" word.
I mentioned you, because you poked him once in similar case, if
I recall correctly. My apologies if this offended you.

The joke was not clear, sorry, as you see Olin replied:

> > P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT
> > getting tired of  the bandwidth useage", does anybody know?
>
> In this case it refers to the bandwidth used up by the
> PIClist.  In other words, bandwidth MIT is paying for and
> giving to the PIClist for free.

Mike.

P.S. I use to think "useage" should be written as "usage".
Can't believe American English could add extra letter to
British English word. Am I wrong?

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2003\08\01@165417 by Douglas Wood

picon face
No. It's the other way 'round, isn't it? You have colour and we have color,
for example... :^)

And, yes, your useage of the word "usage" is the correct useage...

Douglas Wood
Software Engineer
dbwoodspamKILLspamkc.rr.com
ICQ#: 143841506

Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC
http://epicis.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2003\08\01@172755 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> P.S. I use to think "useage" should be written as "usage".
> Can't believe American English could add extra letter to
> British English word. Am I wrong?

You never know, although usually it's the other way around.  For example
we write "color" whereas they insist on an extra (and silent) "u" by
writing "colour".  There are also some strange pronounciations.  We write
"aluminum" and say "ah-LOO-mi-num" like you'd expect.  Brits say
"al-u-MIN-i-um" and I'm not sure if they write it differently or throw in
the extra sylable just because.

Then there are a few outright different words for the same thing, like
"truck" and "lorry".  And "fag" has a very different meaning depending on
which side of the atlantic you're on.  Canadian english is mostly like
American english except that you add ", aye" to the end of every other
sentence ;-)


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2003\08\01@173552 by Randy Jones

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> Canadian english is mostly like
> American english except that you
> add ", aye" to the end of every other
> sentence ;-)

Sheesh, and I always thought it was spelled "..., eh"  ;o)

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2003\08\01@175832 by Mike Singer

picon face
Thank you for the discussion.
I need it to improve my English

Mike.

Olin Lathrop wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> P.S. I use to think "useage" should be written as "usage". Can't
> believe American English could add extra letter to British English
> word. Am I wrong?

You never know, although usually it's the other way around.  For example
we write "color" whereas they insist on an extra (and silent) "u" by
writing "colour".  There are also some strange pronounciations.  We
write "aluminum" and say "ah-LOO-mi-num" like you'd expect.  Brits say
"al-u-MIN-i-um" and I'm not sure if they write it differently or throw
in the extra sylable just because.

Then there are a few outright different words for the same thing, like
"truck" and "lorry".  And "fag" has a very different meaning depending
on which side of the atlantic you're on.  Canadian english is mostly
like American english except that you add ", aye" to the end of every
other sentence ;-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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2003\08\01@181118 by Ishaan Dalal

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> You never know, although usually it's the other way around.  For example
> we write "color" whereas they insist on an extra (and silent) "u" by
> writing "colour".

One might also argue that we pared the "u" from "ou" and "a" from "ae" (ref:
encyclop(a)edia) instead of them adding something extra.... :-)

> There are also some strange pronounciations.  We
> write "aluminum" and say "ah-LOO-mi-num" like you'd expect.  Brits say
> "al-u-MIN-i-um" and I'm not sure if they write it differently or throw
> in the extra sylable just because.

It's written 'aluminium' in British English.

Cheers,
Ishaan

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2003\08\01@182611 by Morgan Olsson

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>> There are also some strange pronounciations.  We
>> write "aluminum" and say "ah-LOO-mi-num" like you'd expect.  Brits say
>> "al-u-MIN-i-um" and I'm not sure if they write it differently or throw
>> in the extra sylable just because.
>
>It's written 'aluminium' in British English.

FWIW in Swedish we spell and pronounce like British, so that *must* be the right way.. ;)

-So what does this have to do with PICs?
Of course: the conductors on the chip surface are made of aluminium! :)

/Morgan
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2003\08\01@210614 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Saturday, Aug 2, 2003, at 02:21 Australia/Sydney, Picdude wrote:

> But yes, in the meanwhile, there has been a lot of wandering
> speculation about
> what will/could/should happen.  And it's not a bad thing.  Although
> (most)
> people are generally resistant to change, change is still good, and
> introduces us to new benefits we may like and not yet know that we
> will.  As
> long as it's planned properly though.

Well put Neil!

Cheers,

Sean

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2003\08\01@212928 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Saturday, Aug 2, 2003, at 07:36 Australia/Sydney, Randy Jones wrote:

> Sheesh, and I always thought it was spelled "..., eh"  ;o)

Yes! I have a T-Shirt to prove it! Olin is not quite up to speed with
the correct usage of eh! or eh? :-)

Sean

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On Saturday, Aug 2, 2003, at 07:36 Australia/Sydney, Randy Jones wrote:


<excerpt><fixed>Sheesh, and I always thought it was spelled "..., eh"
;o)

</fixed></excerpt><fixed>

Yes! I have a T-Shirt to prove it! Olin is not quite up to speed with
the correct usage of eh! or eh? :-)


Sean</fixed>


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2003\08\01@213136 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Saturday, Aug 2, 2003, at 08:07 Australia/Sydney, Ishaan Dalal wrote:

> One might also argue that we pared the "u" from "ou" and "a" from "ae"
> (ref:
> encyclop(a)edia) instead of them adding something extra.... :-)

Oh, you think? LOL

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2003\08\02@024548 by Randy Jones

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Sean,

Yes, the question mark at the end is perfect!... I knew something wasn't quite right, but just couldn't put my finger on it.

Randy
 {Original Message removed}

2003\08\02@095226 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>>> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
>>
>> Me too.  In a heartbeat.
>
> Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
> talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?

Someone proposed to move the list to yahoo groups. I and others were
against it (and I still am). But I'd like to mention that the yahoo groups
now feature delivery and posting by email too. The one group I'm
subscribed to does this (posting and reading by email). If it wouldn't I
wouldn't be on it. So it is possible to move a group to yahoo and keep it
a mailing list as it was.

Peter

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2003\08\02@134416 by Tal

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> > We write "aluminum" and say "ah-LOO-mi-num" like you'd expect.

And we park in the driveway and drive in the parkway.

;-)

Tal

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2003\08\02@141855 by Picdude

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On Friday 01 August 2003 15:48, Mike Singer scribbled:
> Neil wrote:
> > > P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
> > > tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know? My vocabulary
> > > is weak :-) (Neil, could you please do not comment :-)))
> >
> > Do you mean me?  If so, why?  Do you think I'll poke fun at
> > your English?  If so, I cannot see why you'd think that.  Are
> > you confusing me with someone else?  Or did you mean some other
> >  Neil?
>
> Hi, Neil.
> Take it easy. This was a joke on Olin's "useage" word.
> I mentioned you, because you poked him once in similar case, if
> I recall correctly. My apologies if this offended you.

Mike, no, it did not offend, but I just wondered why.  If you checked the archives/history of that message to properly understand the context, you'll notice that I was trying to prove a point at the time.  I am not part of the regular grammar police on this list, and your singling me out as such insinuated that I am.  So obviously I'll ask why.  Unless of course, you *have* given me a reason to direct similar comments to you, which I must've missed...  :-)

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\08\02@164440 by Mike Singer

picon face
Neil wrote:
> ... I am not part of the regular grammar police on this list,
> and your singling me out as such insinuated that I am...

OK, Neil, but what's wrong with "regular grammar police on this
list"? Anybody could benefit of this.

> So obviously I'll ask why.  Unless of course, you *have* given
> me a reason to direct similar comments to you, which I must've
> missed...  :-)

... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Mike.

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2003\08\02@212853 by Robert Rolf

picon face
"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>
> >>> I personally would stop reading the list if it went to Yahoo!
> >>
> >> Me too.  In a heartbeat.
> >
> > Where is this Yahoo thing come from anyway.  I haven't heard anyone
> > talking about moving the list to Yahoo, so why is this an issue?
>
> Someone proposed to move the list to yahoo groups. I and others were
> against it (and I still am). But I'd like to mention that the yahoo groups
> now feature delivery and posting by email too. The one group I'm
> subscribed to does this (posting and reading by email). If it wouldn't I
> wouldn't be on it. So it is possible to move a group to yahoo and keep it
> a mailing list as it was.

That option (email interaction only) has ALWAYS been available with
Yahoogroups. The main difference is that you issue commands by
using a particular address, rather than commands in the body of the
message. e.g. ".....listname-subscribeKILLspamspam.....yahoogroups.com"

I offered yahoo as quick and immediate option, particularly since the
list robot automatically takes care of bounces and bad addresses.
The version of Mailman that I also use is not as good.

I moderate a yahoo list with 4200+ members, 80+ posts a day, and I have
maybe one adminstrative issue a month to deal with. FAR less than
the hour a day the current list robot apparently takes.

I'm quite happy to see the list running at MIT on mailman, but the
initial message about 'administrator burn out' suggested that implied
a decision needed to be made quickly, and I offered an easy, good (IMO)
option. Yahoogroups is good enough for Motorola's official lists, so
why isn't it good enough for the Piclist?

Now shouldn't this thread be moved back to [OT]: or [Admin]: where
it rightfully belongs?

Robert

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2003\08\02@220632 by Charles Craft

picon face
Isn't that part of the issue - NONE of them are funded. :-)

-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Webb <EraseMEtim_webbspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTAGILENT.COM>
Sent: 08/01/03 11:14 AM
To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PICList in danger? We need a change!

>
> We are probably not helping much right now by talking [OT] in [PIC] and
using unnecessary bandwidth...

Better yet, if it's a cost savings thing and this place is called the
"PICList", why not just terminate all topics other than [PIC]? (For example:
[OT], [BUY], [AD], [EE], [SX], & [AVR])  I am sure those other topics are
nice, but maybe they should be funded somewhere else.



-----Original Message-----
From: Olin Lathrop [@spam@olin_piclistKILLspamspamEMBEDINC.COM]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:58 AM
To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PICList in danger? We need a change!


> P.S. Hmm, what is it "useage" in the sentence "Is MIT getting
> tired of the bandwidth useage", does anybody know?

In this case it refers to the bandwidth used up by the PIClist.  In other
words, bandwidth MIT is paying for and giving to the PIClist for free.


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2003\08\02@222121 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Sunday, Aug 3, 2003, at 11:27 Australia/Sydney, Robert Rolf wrote:

> Now shouldn't this thread be moved back to [OT]: or [Admin]: where
> it rightfully belongs?

Why? The original post said "Calling all Members" - yet it is now quite
apparent that many people on the list had no idea that this discussion
was even taking place!

Quite an important discussion - I would think. It's sort of like living
in an apartment with 2000 people and a handful of them are running
around trying to work out how to pay the rent. The others won't know
about it until we are evicted! :-)

Sean

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2003\08\03@054901 by

picon face
The very question about "to be or not to be" regarding
the list, can't be [OT], can it ?

What I havn't understood is :

- What would the *real* problem be to have the PIClist
 hosted on Yahoo (using email as "interface") ?

- Is there a *real* need to move PIClist away from the
 current host (MIT) ?

(As I don't get [OT] posts, I may have missed the answers to this
questions...)

Jan-Erik.


On Sunday, Aug 3, 2003, at 11:27 Australia/Sydney, Robert Rolf wrote:

> Now shouldn't this thread be moved back to [OT]: or [Admin]: where
> it rightfully belongs?

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2003\08\03@093338 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> OK, Neil, but what's wrong with "regular grammar police on this
> list"?

Do you really want everything you say picked apart in detail, even when
the content is clear?  I don't.  I have no problem with people like you
that obviously aren't native english speakers but try to say things
correctly.

I can't stand lazy people who know better but can't be bothered to insert
periods, capatalize the start of sentences, spell out "you" instead of
typing "u", etc.  It basically says: "I'm so much more important than you
all, so I can save myself a couple of keystrokes.  It is of no concern
that this may make my message more difficult and annoying to read for 2000
people since they are irrelevant anyway".  Of course this is not a smart
thing to do when asking these same 2000 people for a favor...

> Anybody could benefit of this.
                       ^^
FROM this  ;-)


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2003\08\03@123316 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > OK, Neil, but what's wrong with "regular grammar police
> > on this list"?
>
> Do you really want everything you say picked apart in detail,
> even when the content is clear?  I don't.  I have no problem
> with people like you that obviously aren't native english
> speakers but try to say things correctly.

Do I want English lesson for free? Yes, I do, really. (To the
extent of these things are allowed by PICList rules :-)

Do you want? Frankly, Olin you are the most popular person on
the List. Many list members use to take you words as axiom.
Is it OK you are teaching them to high standards of coding
using non-so-correct English sometimes?

Look here, please:

> I can't stand lazy people who know better but can't be bothered
> to insert periods, capatalize the start of sentences,...

"capatalize" or "capitalize" ?

"Re: [PIC]: brain teaser":
> > Could anybody explain me is "challange" just misspelling
> > of "challenge"
> Yup, just a typo on my part.

"Re: [PIC]: PICList in danger? We need a change!"
> ...  Is MIT getting tired of the bandwidth useage?

"useage" or "usage" ?

Of course it's for free, and it's your right, but why not be
consistent: similar high standards for the coding language and
for English language usage?

> > Anybody could benefit of this.
>                         ^^
> FROM this  ;-)

OK, I confused "benefit" noun with "benefit" verb.
Thanks for the tip.
(Googled and found: I'm not along with this mistake :-)

Mike.

P.S. What does "fessed up" mean? Does anybody now?

"Re: [PIC]: You gotta be kidding me (PIC18FXX20 Rev A3)"

> > What a bogus thing.

> At least they finally fessed up.

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2003\08\03@124359 by Dave VanHorn

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>Do I want English lesson for free? Yes, I do, really. (To the
>extent of these things are allowed by PICList rules :-)

Can we have a GRAMMAR tag?

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2003\08\03@124804 by Dale Botkin

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This one has strayed seriously OT, guys.  D'you mind?  Thanks.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Mike Singer wrote:

> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > > OK, Neil, but what's wrong with "regular grammar police
> > > on this list"?
8<snip...

Dale
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2003\08\03@125840 by Mike Singer

picon face
Jan-Erik SÃderholm wrote:
>
> What I havn't understood is :
>
> - What would the *real* problem be to have the PIClist
>   hosted on Yahoo (using email as "interface") ?

  It's James Newton's and Co, not our business to decide where PIClist is to be hosted. He stated this pretty clearly in one of [OT]: posts.

Mike.
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2003\08\03@125844 by Picdude

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On Saturday 02 August 2003 15:43, Mike Singer scribbled:
> OK, Neil, but what's wrong with "regular grammar police on this
> list"? Anybody could benefit of this.

There are 2 basic types of mistakes I see with the text on this (and other) forums ... grammatical/usage errors, and "fat-fingered" mistakes (slang term meaning typograpical errors).

For grammatical errors, it's sometimes obvious that people don't know the proper form, and sometimes it's obvious that that is because they are not native English speakers.  And only in that case, would I bother to correct anyone, but I do so in private -- sending only the poster an email politely explaining the term.  I have done this 3 or 4 times to date on this list.

*I* define "grammar police" as someone who has to scold the poster publicly on the list, for a mistake, and there is no need for that.  Sure, others can benefit from it, but this it not an English-grammar forum, so touch luck.  Scolding someone publicly on the list for a typo is even worse I think.  People make mistakes, and it gets annoying when people the grammar police attack every little typo.  If the intent of the original message is understood, then what's the problem?

On the other hand, if a typo or grammatical error changes the statement to something funny, I have no problem sharing a good laugh with the rest of the list. :-)

Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\08\03@140307 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> P.S. What does "fessed up" mean?

Admitted to something that could be detrimental to the admitter.


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2003\08\03@142348 by Picdude

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In addition, I've also felt that it was derived as a short/slang form of "conFESS".

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Sunday 03 August 2003 13:01, Olin Lathrop scribbled:
> > P.S. What does "fessed up" mean?
>
> Admitted to something that could be detrimental to the admitter.

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2003\08\03@145752 by Mike Singer

picon face
Dale, forgive me please, just few words.

Neil wrote:

> *I* define "grammar police" as someone who has to scold
> the poster publicly on the list, for a mistake, and there
> is no need for that.

  For professionals English language is a professional
instrument for communication. It's not "scolding the poster
publicly". It's a generous effort to help the poster avoid
future mistakes, that could save him reputation, job etc.
in the future.

> Sure, others can benefit from it, but this it not an
> English-grammar forum, so touch luck.

  Agreed, this is not an English-grammar forum, this is
much more - PICList :-)

> If the intent of the original message is understood,
> then what's the problem?

Who is to judge that "intent of the original message is
understood" by _ALL_ members? That's the problem.

Best Regards.
Mike.

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2003\08\03@154216 by Picdude

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We should actually move this to OT.  I get OT.  If you do also, let's switch over.

In the meanwhile, I do actually mean "scold", instead of "inform".  Helping the poster (and others) is fine.  It's the attitude and the way of pointing it out that bothers me.  For example, look thru the archives and you'll see posts where no tag was present.  In those cases, I've added a tag, and mentioned "Tag added." in the message.  There are others who would "scold" the poster for not having a tag.


> Who is to judge that "intent of the original message is
> understood" by _ALL_ members? That's the problem.

The reader(s).  If anyone does not understand, but they are interested in finding out, they should/will ask.


Cheers,
-Neil.

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2003\08\03@195133 by Tim Tapio

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I have found that when I filtered out yahoo.com addresses, I cut my spam in
half.  When I contacted Yahoo, they give me the shrugged shoulders and
"there's nothing we can do" response.  I no longer subscribe to any of the
lists on Yahoo...unfortunate...but either that or I get a hundred offers for
drugs, sexual enhancements and porn sites....

Thanks but no thanks...

Tim



{Original Message removed}

2003\08\03@203533 by Picdude

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face
Odd, I have a different email for everything/everyone, so I know where my spam comes from.  I don't get any from yahoo, but I have a hotmail account that is literally 99% spam.  I only use it if I'm forced to register on some website, and they demand an email addr to send a password or activation link, etc.

I recently got a new domain name, and it seems as though the last folks switched it for a hyphenated version due to spam.  Now I have to block emails to any names I don't need/have/want.

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Sunday 03 August 2003 18:50, Tim Tapio scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2003\08\03@222057 by Matt Pobursky

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On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:50:23 -0400, Tim Tapio wrote:
> I have found that when I filtered out yahoo.com addresses, I cut my
> spam in half.  When I contacted Yahoo, they give me the shrugged
> shoulders and "there's nothing we can do" response.  I no longer
> subscribe to any of the lists on Yahoo...unfortunate...but either
> that or I get a hundred offers for drugs, sexual enhancements and
> porn sites....
>
> Thanks but no thanks...

You setup your privacy settings wrong (or didn't set them at all). I'm
a member of about 20 Yahoo groups (using several separate email
accounts so I can track spam) and get zero spam in them.
No spam is one of the things I actually LIKE about Yahoo groups. They
munge your email address when you post so no bots can harvest the
messages. The Yahoo "spam problem" is FUD, in my experience.

I get much more spam from people who have harvested my email address from
the PIClist...

Matt Pobursky

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2003\08\03@230121 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

>>P.S. What does "fessed up" mean?
>
>
> Admitted to something that could be detrimental to the admitter.

Should be typed, "'fessed", as in "confessed".  "'fessed up" is English
slang for making a confession.  Can also be used as a demand, as in:

"'Fess up!"

Another example:

"Olin's interrogators tortured him with painful electric shocks until he
'fessed up to drinking the last can of beer."

Or something like that... (GRIN!).

Sorry to continue the off-topic thread, but I hope it helps some
non-native English speakers.

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2003\08\03@233104 by Jake Anderson

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I don't get any Spam from yahoo groups (well except one which I am closing),
and I am admin for 2 of them.

{Original Message removed}

2003\08\04@043733 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I have found that when I filtered out yahoo.com addresses,
>I cut my spam in half.

I think you need to look at how the addresses are sent on the emails from
the yahoo Groups. These are not just @yahoo.com, but come through as
yahoogroups.com The only ones that come through as yahoo.com are those which
actually use yahoo as there ISP account for their mail.

I am on also on 12 yahoo groups lists and do not get any noticable spam from
being there. The spam I do get seems to be because of auto generated
addresses.

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