Post by thread:[PIC]: PICList free PCB contest!

Talk about supporting your PICList! Tsvetan Usunov <spam_OUTusunovTakeThisOuTolimex.com> of http://www.olimex.com/pcb has offered to make a PCB free and ship it to the designer free every month for the PICList as a prize for a design contest. Contest entries must be posted to the list and PICList.com web site and will then always be available for all the members as reference designs. Tsvetan's idea is that this will encourage people to publish designs and get more good ideas out into the real world for everyone to see. RULES: - Board layout must not exceed: double side, 160x100 mm, soldermask, component print - The designs to be made with PIC microcontrollers (or code compatible). - To be non-commercial projects. - To be posted on the PICList web site as open source software and open design hardware so all PICList users may benefit from the knowledge. - Designs will be collected during a one month period. Each of the designs will have a link to vote for the design and votes will be tallied until the end of the following month. File downloads of the board layout will count as 2 votes. Actual (paid) orders for boards will count as 5 votes. The design with the most votes will be declared the winner and the designer will receive a free board soon after. FINE PRINT: Entering the contest means releasing all hope of making money off your design. No copyright. copyleft only. You are doing this to share your design and get a board made for free so you can build one. Otherwise, DON'T DO IT! The only exception would be that having a winning design in the contest might show someone what you are capable of and attract other work in the future. No promises, but that has happened for others who post to the list and web site. The design must include a board layout. Lots of help is available with that and free programs for board layout are available. The program you use must produce good Gerber files and NC drill files that http://www.olimex.com/pcb can accept. See http://www.olimex.com/pcb/techinfo.html for exact requirements. The board layout will be on the site along with the rest of the design so anyone can download the layout and send it to anyone to make if they like. We will provide a link to make it easy to order the boards from olimex. This is a way of rewarding them for sponsoring the contest and it is MY idea not theirs. Remember: All the files will be available so if you want to order it from your favorite board house, you can. I just want to make it easy, and suggest that people reward olimex by ordering from them. If you are a competitor of Olimex, sponsor your own contest. HOW TO ENTER: 1. Go to http://www.piclist.com/pcbcontest.htm Use the form at the bottom of the page to enter a description of your design. Change "Question" to "Comment" in the list above the text box and press the "Post" button. If you are a member and you log in, it will be an "Add" button and everyone will be able to see your post immediately. If you are not a member, I will review the post and allow others to see it if it is ok. 2. Zip up your design files (including source and board layout) and ftp it to ftp://ftp.piclist.com/in (a write only directory) or email it to .....jamesnewtonKILLspam@spam@piclist.com jamesnewtonKILLspampiclist.com and I will review it and link your description to it. This is necessary to prevent me from becoming an unwitting host of porno, etc... --- James Newton, webmaster piclist.com (former Admin #3) .....jamesnewtonKILLspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593 VM 1-208-279-8767 FAX PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote: > source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\12\214202a > > HELLO! Does no one want a FREE professional custom PCB made for their > project? See: > > http://www.piclist.com/pcbcontest.htm You don't suppose it has anything to do with the 'fine print'?? " Entering the contest means releasing all hope of making money off your design. No copyright. copyleft only. You are doing this to share your design and get a board made for free so you can build one. " And it's only been a day or two, hardly enough time for anyone to get organized enough to submit a design. And who is going to wait two months to get their board done (one month for the contest, and then the time to have it made)?? The benefit doesn't come close to making up for the time cost. Nice idea, but I don't think it's going to fly nearly as well as Circuit Cellar's design contests <G>. Robert -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

James, it's a bloody good idea as a team-building exercise but I think it's a self-defeating proposal unfortunately If the project is good enough to win, then it possibly has commercial value. Or had. Between commercial and purely one-offs, I would have thought there's a very narrow strip containing little of popular appeal. Perhaps a manufacturer would care to do a contra deal, but you'll get objections to commercial servitude or the list members being used as "paid performers" Look at magazine "Idea Of The Month" competitions for example. Many winning entries are not big enough to justify a PCB being made, and therein lies the problem -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Love the idea, but... Ditto that. C {Quote hidden}> James, it's a bloody good idea as a team-building exercise > but I think it's a self-defeating proposal unfortunately > > If the project is good enough to win, then it possibly has > commercial value. Or had. > > Between commercial and purely one-offs, I would have > thought there's a very narrow strip containing little of > popular appeal. Perhaps a manufacturer would care to > do a contra deal, but you'll get objections to commercial > servitude or the list members being used as "paid performers" > > Look at magazine "Idea Of The Month" competitions for > example. Many winning entries are not big enough to justify > a PCB being made, and therein lies the problem > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Not sure why anyone would prohibit you taking an idea commercial unless they wanted to get the idea and the rights so they could do that themselves. However, since you are not signing away the rights to anyone else, perhaps you could just change one output-resistor value and then it's not the same circuit anymore. :-) What may have come out of this though, is that I've been researching PCB mfgrs today, and just came across this PCB guy's address as a decent source. At the high-level, seems like the best deal (for my 1- and 2-piece quantities), so at least he got some free advertising out of it. :-) However, I like the idea of sharing projects. As soon as I come up with a fun project, I'll post/distribute, with or without a free PCB. {Original Message removed}

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed previously, but wouldn't a better way be to make a collection point available for prototypes. For example Becman PCB's have panel sizes of 14.6" x 16.6" and do a 3 day turn around for $US150.00 plus about $US5.00 delivery. If 20 PCBs fit on the panel, then the hobby cost is around $US7.50 per board. Of course you would pay for your own PCB real estate. Mailing a PCB from Oz to the US can be as low as $US5, depending on size and quantity. Total could be $US12.50 for a quality DS TPH PCB delivered to your door. However, with a scheme like this, you'd be taking pot luck about delivery delays which would depend on how full the panel is at any time. -- Best regards Tony mICros http://www.bubblesoftonline.com @spam@salesKILLspambubblesoftonline.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

I usually get my prototypes done as "no-tooling" at Omnigraph, Vancouver. The people there THINK - I have never gotten anything less than a perfect result back. As much as fits two panels 5" x 8" in 5 days for CAD 150 (100 USD). Two layers, through plated, solder masks + top overlay. White tin finish. All described at http://www.omnigraph.com They have great tools for download too. Kent {Quote hidden}> I'm pretty sure this has been discussed previously, but wouldn't a > better way be to make a collection point available for prototypes. > > For example Becman PCB's have panel sizes of 14.6" x 16.6" and do a 3 > day turn around for $US150.00 plus about $US5.00 delivery. > > If 20 PCBs fit on the panel, then the hobby cost is around $US7.50 per > board. Of course you would pay for your own PCB real estate. > > Mailing a PCB from Oz to the US can be as low as $US5, depending on size > and quantity. > > Total could be $US12.50 for a quality DS TPH PCB delivered to your door. > > However, with a scheme like this, you'd be taking pot luck about > delivery delays which would depend on how full the panel is at any time. > > > > > -- > Best regards > > Tony > > mICros > http://www.bubblesoftonline.com > KILLspamsalesKILLspambubblesoftonline.com > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Tony, does Becman have a web site? Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Nixon" <spamBeGoneTony.NixonspamBeGoneENG.MONASH.EDU.AU> To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]: PICList free PCB contest! I'm pretty sure this has been discussed previously, but wouldn't a better way be to make a collection point available for prototypes. For example Becman PCB's have panel sizes of 14.6" x 16.6" and do a 3 day turn around for $US150.00 plus about $US5.00 delivery. If 20 PCBs fit on the panel, then the hobby cost is around $US7.50 per board. Of course you would pay for your own PCB real estate. Mailing a PCB from Oz to the US can be as low as $US5, depending on size and quantity. Total could be $US12.50 for a quality DS TPH PCB delivered to your door. However, with a scheme like this, you'd be taking pot luck about delivery delays which would depend on how full the panel is at any time. -- Best regards Tony mICros http://www.bubblesoftonline.com RemoveMEsalesTakeThisOuTbubblesoftonline.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> > domain, given that 99.9999........% of people are too busy, > > lazy, scared, unknowledgeable or disinterested to do owt > > with them > > > Hei, Joe, you seems me angry today ! No no not angry at all. Just being realistic. There are thousands of things I see on the web and think "hey, I could do that". But where does anybody find the time ? That's what I mean - people are normally so concerned with what they're already doing to take on something else. Just building something is the easy bit. If you decide to commercialise that's a whole new ball game that takes time, effort, money, patience.......... > Haven't take a look to swim.pps ? Was going to get back to you about that - I can't view .pps files > It's interesting to know the thoughts of a guy who already > had shared a lot from his work with others... > best, Vasile Here's an example of what I'm talking about re the subject line http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0counter.html I quite freely offer that into public domain because (a) it's not entirely finished [but works] (b) it was made for a specific purpose and I'm done with it (c) it's a very niche piece of equipment. Frankly I'd be chasing rainbows to find a market, so why not just share ? <doom'n'gloom> We'll all be gone in 100 years, so will PICs. Eventually everything will and there'll be no one to remember anything in a universe that doesn't exist </doom'n'gloom> -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> HELLO! Does no one want a FREE professional custom PCB made for their > project? Geesh James, it's only been a day since you announced it. There are also a lot of other reasons you might not get many customers. It seems like a lot of trouble to go thru to get ONE board made, two months after you packaged everything up and submitted it. And then the board size is rather limited and is only two layer. I have one personal project that would have been OK for except that I had 8 boards made, and another that it wouldn't. I'm respinning the board for another, but this board will be double sided, bigger than 100mm x 160mm, and I want to make at least 4. It will also include some code I don't want to give out. In any case I don't want to wait 2 months on the chance that they might chose my design and make me one board. Frankly, the little bit they are offering just doesn't outway all the costs. Let's also be honest about what's going on here. I doubt this has anything to do with "supporting" the PIC list. They know as well as we do what they are offering is nearly wothless. They are trying to get exposure as a PC fab house hoping to catch future business. I don't have a problem with that, but I think they are going about it the wrong way. I usually us PCBExpress because a while ago I looked around and priced out a couple of jobs from a bunch of board houses, and PCBExpress came out best for small prototype quantities. They have always done what they said they would do, and I'm satisfied with the quality. Now I don't waste time looking around anymore, I just send work straight to them. I also like the fact that everything, including the prices, is on line. I don't have to send them info and get a quote back that is computed by some mysterious means. If some other company wanted to capture my PC fab business, they need to give me a reason to try them once AND reason to believe that I would want to use them in the future. Just getting a better price on one board once isn't worth the hassle to change my process. How about 50% off the next order of up to 8 boards, with a standard price list that regularly beats PCBExpress, including the shipping charges? That would get my attention. I just checked my notes from when I looked at PC fab houses, and Olimex was on it but crossed out. I don't remember the exact reason, but this probably means their web page didn't tell me what I wanted to know or was down. I also note they are in Bulgaria, so there are some serious shipping and customs issues they will have to make me feel comfortable with too. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, olinEraseME.....embedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> > I just checked my notes from when I looked at PC fab houses, > and Olimex was on it but crossed out. I don't remember the > exact reason, but this probably means their web page didn't > tell me what I wanted to know or was down. I also note they > are in Bulgaria, so there are some serious shipping and > customs issues they will have to make me feel comfortable with too. Just for the record, we do a good bit of trade with Olimex (somewhere between 5 and 10 different boards; some in moderate quantity) and are very happy with them. Customs is a non-issue to the US (you do have to sign for the package when it arrives). It does take 2-3 weeks, so not for short turn around. But the boards are high-quality with excellent workmanship and Tsvetan is very helpful and approachable. I think the contest idea is great for hobby types who are not under time pressure and maybe unable to afford all the time and money to have boards made, etc. If that doesn't apply to you then don't worry about it. I wish I knew more young people with an interest in the business to recommend it to. My thanks to James and Tsvetan for their support of the community. Al Williams AWC * Easy RS-232 Prototyping http://www.al-williams.com/awce/rs1.htm P.S. I suppose this tag should be changed to OT, but I wanted to be on the record to the reply. Sorry admins - I'm usually pretty good about it so I hope you'll excuse me this once. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

I suspect we'll see a few submissions. As for the rest of the drawbacks mentioned by various people, I think it was pretty clearly stated what exactly was being offered. If that appeals to you, great, go for it. If it doesn't, great, ignore it. Many PICListers won't care about getting a free double-sided board made, they can just shuttle the files over to their favorite fabricator and have a few whipped up. OK, great, go for it. Some don't want to let go of their code -- again, great, ignore the contest. We really don't need to all know your specific reasons for not being interested, it just leads to more list clutter and less harmonious discourse. So it's not perfect by soeone's particular standards -- so what? It's flippin' FREE. If it's free and you still don't like it, either email a constructive suggestion, privately,or don't bitch about it. I can assure you that the parties involved are trying to offer something of interest and value to the list. If someone manages to get a little good will out of the deal, where's the crime, ferchrissake? Not all list members are in the US, some are in countries where packages from Bulgaria are commonplace. Some are even *IN* Bulgaria. Not all make their living writing top-secret code for high paying customers, Some do this as a hobby and don't care how long it takes to get a board made, or whether someone else uses their code. Anyone check out the amount of freely available PIC code on the net recently? My point: Either submit an entry or don't, but please don't bitch and whine on the list about why you won't. Thanks. Dale -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dale Botkin [SMTP:EraseMEdaleBOTKIN.ORG] > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:16 PM > To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [PIC]: PICList free PCB contest! > > My point: Either submit an entry or don't, but please don't bitch and > whine on the list about why you won't. > Well said, I can see why James get s a little hot under the collar sometimes. A quick question, the contest web site implies, but does not state that the free PCB has to be part of the submitted design. Could you e.g. submit a design (with a PCB layout if required) and get a different board made? Cheers Mike -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> > My point: Either submit an entry or don't, but please don't > > bitch and whine on the list about why you won't Hi Dale. Don't want to be argumentative but I think "bitch and whine" is a little strong How about getting Microchip involved ? The list has been going long enough with 2000+ members to surely have been noticed in downtown Chandler. If you could persuade Microchip to put up a prize of say US$100 worth of "useful" mixed chips from their ever-growing line card (together with the free PCB) then that would be attractive. Perhaps not on a monthly basis, so something doesn't "have" to be chosen -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\13\164944a Robert, You aren't really suggesting that no one on the PICList is willing to share a design without retaining a copyright? I really don't think making money is what the PICList is about. It sure doesn't work that way for me! <GRIN> Lots of us like to share our ideas, successes, and code. Why not PCB layouts as well? Is there a better way that I could explain that the project will then be published for the world and used by other people? Isn't that what most of us want for the designs that we share? --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Jinx wrote: > > > My point: Either submit an entry or don't, but please don't > > > bitch and whine on the list about why you won't > > Hi Dale. Don't want to be argumentative but I think "bitch > and whine" is a little strong I apologize if I offended anyone, I really didn't mean to do so. I try not to be abrasive and undiplomatic, but some days it's harder than others. To be honest, I was only halfway through my first cup of coffee which probably didn't help. But one message in particular (not yours, actually) really lit my fuse. Griping about the fact that the offer is "only" for a double sided board of less than heroic proportions qualifies (IMHO) as bitching. It's a hell of a lot better than *I* can make at home, for free. We have a saying that applies here... "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". If a person's interested or has some constructive input, great, share it. If not... > How about getting Microchip involved ? I'd love to. I'd love it if Microchip gave some indication they care about the list's existence... I know a few people there are subscribed, anyway. So far no joy. If I had the time to engage in an all-out campaign to get us noticed I would, but I just babysit the list server. Everyone is free to email Microchip with their suggestions. Honest, I didn't have anything to do with the contest. I may or may not enter, I don't know. Anyone on the list is more than welcome to do so, as long as they agree to the entry rules. If people don't like the rules, they're more than welcome to pass. If you've got specific suggestions for how to improve the whole concept (especially if it involves either no additional work by the server owner OR it includes an offer of help), great - email James! I know I have already. Dale -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\14\025434a "We'll all be gone in 100 years, so will PICs. Eventually everything will and there'll be no one to remember anything in a universe that doesn't exist" This is exactly the point of my web sites: http://techref.massmind.org/techref/idea/websites.htm Writing code and being published on the web or in a computer is the closest thing to immortality that I can find right now. It beats pushing your kids to be more than you were... ...getting code (or PCB layouts) published WILL last for years and years. The wisdom of the ages is making its way on the internet in many places http://www.gutenberg.net/ http://www.bartleby.com/ http://www.ipl.org/ I still read my old 1970s and 80s Byte Magazines and I've learned a LOT from them. If you think PICs will not be around in 100 years, you should look at this: http://antiqueradio.org/lit.htm http://djvu.research.att.com/links/ Electronics and algorithms will still apply. Are the electrons going to reverse direction someday? Will we do away with the need to divide numbers using a small amount of computing power? You will die, and your designs will still be useful, if only as inspiration to others, many years later IF YOU PUBLISH. Money? what is money? Money is for olimex to contribute to help you make your design a reality without costing you. Money is so I can feed my family. I have enough of that (almost <GRIN>). Now, I want to make a difference. --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 jamesnewtonSTOPspamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\14\102837a "Could you e.g. submit a design (with a PCB layout if required) and get a different board made?" I don't see why not.. Olimex will have the final say on that, but the board you get made just needs to fall with in the limitations of the contest re: size, layers, etc... And you DO have to submit a board layout with the design entry. Part of the idea here is that other people will want to MAKE your design and must be able to download the gerbers or order the board from olimex if they want... --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 spamBeGonejamesnewtonSTOPspamEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> "If the project is good enough to win, then it possibly has > commercial value. Or had." > > Jinx, if all you are interested in commercial value, why are you > on the PICList? Why do you publish circuits and code on your > web site? I don't understand this. That's a pretty big "if" and I don't know how you could have formed that impression. I don't and never have thought of the list in any commercial terms whatsoever, and don't believe I've ever made any indication to the contrary I am interested though in sharing information that may help someone earn some money and,.if it doesn't prevent me from making a dollar out of my own ideas, I'm more than happy to share, and do. I give information on only a fraction of the work I do, the rest I keep to myself -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

jamesnewton@PICLIST.COM wrote: > Who is "prohibiting you taking an idea commercial"? The contest details page states "To be non-commercial projects." Then later in the Fine-Print section it states "Entering the contest means releasing all hope of making money off your design. No copyright. copyleft only. ..." It is still possible that someone might want to share a circuit design, including code, and still make it commercial. It has happened, and can happen again. There are many of people out there that find devices they like thru web searches, but don't have the skills, time, or equipment to build one themselves. Many manufacturers even list a project kit and assembled version side-by-side, and are willing to share the circuit design and code. Look at an electronics magazine -- they start off with a circuit, code, parts list, and operational description, then list a kit and assembled version for sale. The intent of my original statement was to question why the commercial limitations were being imposed. That's all. Cheers, -Neil. {Original Message removed}

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\14\192444a Ahhh... I'm starting to see the problem... I meant to explain that people should not expect to be able to make money from the design when it is being published for all to see. Not that I would not allow them to make money... I guess it really should say, you can't remove the design from the web site and you can't sue anyone else for making them... Or something like that? --- James Newton, webmaster piclist.com (former Admin #3) KILLspamjamesnewtonspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 VM 1-208-279-8767 FAX PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\14\191317a Now that I see what people have been having a problem with... let me reword the contest a bit... After "To be non-commercial projects." add: "By that we mean that you will not remove the design from the public domain and that you will not attempt to prevent other people from making it. You can still sell it if you want." then change "Entering the contest means releasing all hope of making money off your design." to "Entering the contest means you will probably not be making money off your design." Is that better? Sorry for the confusion. I had no intention of specifying that people couldn't sell their own design if someone wanted to buy it rather than having it built themselves... ...Just that they shouldn't assume that they would be making lots of sales since the design is published. I've updated the page at: http://www.piclist.com/pcbcontest.htm --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 EraseMEjamesnewtonEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote: > > source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\13\190705a > > Who is "prohibiting you taking an idea commercial"? I'm just saying that if > you enter the contest and publish the design, you can't, later on, say > "please remove that from the web site, I want to make it myself and sell it > and I don't want people to be able to download it and make it themselves" The problem lies in the nature of 'public domain'. Once a creation (be it code or hardware) is made public, it cannot be made 'proprietary'. A good idea could be easily copied by a larger and more resourceful entity, and you'd be priced out of the very market you created with your design. In other words, your gadget could sell in WalMart (a gigantic department store chain based in the USA) for 1/10 of what it costs you to make. Does anyone remember those digital 'voice memo' devices that became popular a few years back. Did you notice how there were dozens of knock-offs within weeks of the first one's mass marketing campaign? THATS what you could be up against with a clever, useful design you share with the PICLIST. It may be great to see all those people copying your ideas, but that doesn't pay your bills or taxes. Having seen, close up, this sort of thing happen where I work, I am much more sensitive to the legal issues surrounding IP (intellectual property) and public disclosure of same. Robert -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\14\214106a Exactly! That is what I was trying to warn people of. Don't expect that if you make a design public you will every be able to again make it private. But as several people have pointed out, you may still be able to make money by extending the software, introducing a new version or by useing the design as advertizing. But again, I think most of the list have some interesting little idea in the back of their heads that they do not see a commercial prosepect for (or don't want to bother with the commercial side of) and would like to justify spending the time to make the design. This contest is a way to do that. --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 @spam@jamesnewton@spam@spam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Personally I think it's a great idea, benefitting designers, punters and the board house. The designer benefits from 'exposure' i.e. people see what he/she can do The board house benefits from publicity and orders of the design The punter (joe bloggs) gets to order pcbs at a reasonable price (I'll assume Olimex will do a run of each design to keep costs down) Here are some suggestions of things that would be useful - I'll do some my self when I get chance. These are all simple designs, like those that get published here regularly, and will easily fit the requirements - An I2C to serial interface type board. This can help joe on the street debug I2C projects - Similar for SPI and microwire type interfaces - Various PIC programmers and things - An Analog to digital to micro to analog board. There are more and more questions hitting the list about dsp related stuff, and with a fast PIC on board, and some of the cunning math algorithms at http://www.piclist.com some simple filters can be experimented with. - And many many more. Well Done James, Keep up the Good work. No pun intended eh Olin? > Olin wrote :- > They are trying to get exposure as a PC fab house Regards, Kevin -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hmmm... I dunno. When it comes time to purchase components, especially large/significant quantities, my guess is that most people would choose their regular suppliers or go with the usual factors of price, service, etc, instead of thinking that they should support a specific company that once sponsored a contest. However, if the prize were some decent discount on parts, then maybe. I think Microchip has every interest in promoting use of their products. I'm new to this stuff, and the reason I chose the PIC was cause its popular -- a web search resulted in lots of PIC info, projects, etc. An Ebay search got me 2 16F84's and the rest, as they say, is history. And popularity/wide-spread use will usually result in lower-cost and better tools, etc, which would further enchance the PIC's desirability. Cheers. {Original Message removed}

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\15\040818a <QUOTE AUTHOR="Kevin Blain"> - An I2C to serial interface type board. This can help joe on the street debug I2C projects - Similar for SPI and microwire type interfaces - Various PIC programmers and things - An Analog to digital to micro to analog board. There are more and more questions hitting the list about dsp related stuff, and with a fast PIC on board, and some of the cunning math algorithms at http://www.piclist.com some simple filters can be experimented with. - And many many more. Well Done James, Keep up the Good work. </QUOTE> THANK YOU! That means a lot and your suggestions are all excellent! I'll bet some of our members may already have designs like that laying around gathering dust and if they are willing to share them, it's a great way to show what you can do and help out your fellow PICLister. I have a design for an SX52 based development board that I will be submitting in a week or two. It has a programmer built in an makes it alot easier to work with this SMT device. I don't expect it to win because there are very few SX52 developers, but what the heck, I was going to publish it anyway... ...and I expect that as it is my first PCB layout, I'll get some valuable feedback (hopefully offlist <GRIN>) about what I've done wrong or could do better. I'll be contacting some of these people to see if they would be willing to enter: mikro.e-technik.uni-ulm.de/research/urcr.html www.digitalnemesis.com/ash/projects/picservo/default.htm http://www.rc-cam.com/xcamfsm.htm http://w1.132.telia.com/~u13205992/buttonbox/ http://www.dmillard.com/osmc/osmcdes.html And many more at http://www.google.com/search?q=gerber+pcb+project+PIC That just shows that there are a lot of PIC based projects with PCB layouts and everything that are being made available to the public. --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 spamBeGonejamesnewtonKILLspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Hmmm... I dunno. When it comes time to purchase components, > especially large/significant quantities, my guess is that most people > would choose their regular suppliers or go with the usual factors > of price, service, etc, instead of thinking that they should support > a specific company that once sponsored a contest. However, if > the prize were some decent discount on parts, then maybe. Yes, they are all valid points. Olimex's involvement is simple - one board, one winner. As for other sponsors, it may not mean anything to the list in general unless they'd offer a discount with proof of membership or something like that (perhaps on orders under a certain value) as a contra for their exposure. Loyalty cards are the "in" thing these days. To the winner of course would go the complete spoils, and I suggested a general component supplier as a way for them to get a free board and also free stuffing for it > I think Microchip has every interest in promoting use of their > products. Of course, but they don't much like dealing directly with us oiks - that's what their distributors are for. However as a sign of good faith it wouldn't kill them to ship out a tube of chips. Even maybe a programmer (possibly a PSP rather than an ICE2000) now and then to encourage end-use purchases -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Dale, I was thinking about your comments re Microchip. > > Microchip probably think they're "preaching to the > converted", IOW, why give away what people buy, > but maybe they could be persuaded to look at it from > a PR point of view > > So, how about a major distributor like Arrow, Digikey, > Radio Spares, Mouser ? They are the ones who are > competing for our dollar, not Microchip <SNIP> How about everyone on the List e-mail Digikey? Receiving 2000+ e-mails from the members should get their attention. We just need to devise a plan for the contest, that's all. Then just cut-n-paste and send away! >;) Just a thought. Vitaliy -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> However as a sign of good > faith it wouldn't kill them to ship out a tube of chips. Even maybe > a programmer (possibly a PSP rather than an ICE2000) now > and then to encourage end-use purchases That's probably the last thing they want to do. I bet they lose money on every one-off purchase. If you only make a buck or two on something, even sending a data book CD is a loss, let alone a printed manual. Any kind of personal support costs far more. So if hobbiests want to buy an occasional PIC from a distributor, fine, but Microchip has every reason not to encourage it. All hobbiest sales together are insignificant compared to their real customers who buy for production units. On the other hand, Mircochip is well ahead of all the others when it comes to supporting the people that design real products. They have a very nice program in place, whereas most of the others make you go thru distributors. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, .....olinspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistserv.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> > faith it wouldn't kill them to ship out a tube of chips. Even > > maybe a programmer (possibly a PSP rather than an ICE2000) > > now and then to encourage end-use purchases > >if hobbiests want to buy an occasional PIC from a distributor, > fine, but Microchip has every reason not to encourage it. All > hobbiest sales together are insignificant compared to their > real customers who buy for production units How does Microchip or any other chip supplier know who is a hobbyist ? 3 things that I've been working on for some time are poised to go into bulk manufacture. One is purely PIC based. The second is 50-50 PIC-Atmel depending on price/availabilty. The third is Atmel because (a) Microchip wouldn't send me samples (b) the alternative was to buy a $300 tube and then possibly get lumbered (c) the Atmel part is available as samples or one-offs from their distributor. Now that the Atmel part (functionally identical to the Microchip part) has been worked into the circuit and proved itself, it'll stay there. To Atmel's benefit (1800 parts/month), not Microchip's, but it could so easily have been the other way around if not for Microchip's sales policy. But that's not singling out Microchip - many suppliers are just the same It can be very hard to get 1-10 or indeed any pieces of a chip outside of the major distribution areas (specifically the US or Europe). so what do you do ? You look to the opposition is what you do My argument is that chip manufacturers should encourage "hobbyists" - surely that is where new and original products often come from. You don't have to be already in bulk production to have an idea. That idea could be taken to a manufacturer, rather than worked on in the garden shed, but there are reasons why a lot of hobbyist experimenters don't do that, for better or worse -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> If only some suppliers weren't such hard-asses Actually I find Microchip the best of the bunch. They have a great consultant program, and you can get support directly from FAEs (field applications engineers) who are actually Microchip employees. Lots of other companies make you talk to distributors for support. Of course the first thing they want to know is how many you are going to buy. They don't have reason to put much effort into helping me because I'm not the one that will buy the volume parts, and there is no guarantee that whoever will buy the volume parts will be in the same geographic area or use the same distributor. The technical support people at the distributors also don't tend to know anything useful. At best they know what's in the manual. If I'm calling with a technical problem, I've already read the manual and want an expert. I've never found one at a distributor. Big offenders in this area are Motorola and TI. Maybe I'm just spoiled with Microchip because I'm 3 miles down the road from the local office, and my FAE, John Day, is the best I've ever worked with from any company for any product. But Microchip is also very good about getting me samples fast when I need them. I don't know what kind of problem Jinx had with this, but I can usually have any part I need in my hands the next day after making a phone call. Of course I'm careful not to abuse this, and only use it when the part isn't available thru regular channels or it is needed very suddenly, and never ask for free samples for personal projects. Microchip also supports consultants in other ways, like substantial discounts on development tools, etc. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, spamBeGoneolin@spam@spam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspammitvma.mit.edu

On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:31:16 -0500, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>> If only some suppliers weren't such hard-asses > >Actually I find Microchip the best of the bunch. They have a great >consultant program, and you can get support directly from FAEs (field >applications engineers) who are actually Microchip employees. > >Lots of other companies make you talk to distributors for support. Of >course the first thing they want to know is how many you are going to buy. >They don't have reason to put much effort into helping me because I'm not >the one that will buy the volume parts, and there is no guarantee that >whoever will buy the volume parts will be in the same geographic area or use >the same distributor. The technical support people at the distributors also >don't tend to know anything useful. At best they know what's in the manual. >If I'm calling with a technical problem, I've already read the manual and >want an expert. I've never found one at a distributor. Big offenders in >this area are Motorola and TI. > >Maybe I'm just spoiled with Microchip because I'm 3 miles down the road from >the local office, and my FAE, John Day, is the best I've ever worked with >from any company for any product. But Microchip is also very good about >getting me samples fast when I need them. I don't know what kind of problem >Jinx had with this, but I can usually have any part I need in my hands the >next day after making a phone call. Of course I'm careful not to abuse >this, and only use it when the part isn't available thru regular channels or >it is needed very suddenly, and never ask for free samples for personal >projects. Microchip also supports consultants in other ways, like >substantial discounts on development tools, etc. ..and also exceptional service support on things like emulators - if you blow a pin on an ICE chip, one call and a replacement is in the post - even for old Picmaster probes that are half a dozen years old. This is the sort of thing professional developers really need. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

> The problem is that AFAIK the NZ branches are just sales > outlets for the Sydney, Australia regional office. If it's not > on the shelf here, chances are you need to make an MOQ > (minimum order quantity) purchase. That does tend to > stifle experimentation. Maybe things are a little looser now > that Memec are Microchip reps too, something I'll have to > look into You seem to be doing PIC development professionally. If so, it will be a big help to be signed up as an official Microchip PIC consultant. That will give you access to the people in Arizona who's job it is to support the PIC consultants. That is where quick samples come from. The local offices don't stock parts. You should also find the real Microchip office that handles your area, not just a rep. Once the local FAE and sales guys get to know you, they can advocate for you inside Microchip. If I remember right, your local FAE has to sponsor you to become a PIC consultant. That's how they weed out the hobbiests that just want to get free stuff. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, @spam@olinRemoveMEEraseMEembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

>> So, how about a major distributor like Arrow, Digikey, >> Radio Spares, Mouser ? They are the ones who are >> competing for our dollar, not Microchip >Great idea -- hope someone can talk 'em into that! >Was that you I heard volunteering? 8-) I doubt >they'd listen much to me, and I spend about as >much time handling list server bounces as I'm >willing to devote to this. To get one of these distributors to sponsor something like this, you will probably need to be able to source any and all parts through that distributor, or have the distributor able to source the parts if it is an item they currently do not carry, so that they are able to market the thing as a complete kit, complete with PCB, to anyone else. This would probably be a condition that they would impose anyway in agreeing to sponsor a contest. I have an idea that I have been pondering for some time which would be an ideal candidate for the Olimex contest, but it would take me at least 12 months to get to a working prototype. However the device would be small, and about 8 to 12 would fit on a Eurocard (100mm x 160mm) board. What implications would there be in having holes or slots so that the board could be broken into "project sized" PCB's, as I envisage my project would be purchased as the Eurocard sized PCB, because the end users will want and/or need multiples of the project PCB. And then there is the PCB design, what happens if you get your PCB made and you then find there is a mistake, but the design is already posted on the contest site, and Olimex have the board available? Is the contest assuming that you have already obtained an etched PCB from somewhere (possibly another board house) and verified the layout by building one, and then Olimex are going to provide another free one of the same design? In my case because of the type of project it is, this would not be a problem as I will probably need more than one Eurocard's worth of the project PCB's. I think the contest is a great idea, and is a way of getting a small project "to market" for a hobbyist who has a design that could be useful to others in their hobby, but it will take a while to get some entries for the contest. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

> One reason I hadn't done this before was not understanding > what was meant by "consultant". I thought it was something > completely different I think they want to support the people that are doing serious (for real products that might lead to real volumes) PIC development but that otherwise get overlooked because they don't work for the companies actually producing the products. I've made a business out of doing exactly that, so this program is very helpful to me. Talk to your local FAE, explain to him honestly what you do, and see if you qualify. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, spamBeGoneolinEraseMEembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\03\18\050902a I'm assuming that designs posted to the contest will probably have errors. From what I've seen, professionals often end up with mistakes in any non-trivial board layout. Posting the trace "cuts" and jumpers or new design files to correct the problem will be an on-going contribution from the designer and users alike. I don't see any reason why an improved version of a previous contest entry can't be posted for the next months contest. If the updated design gets more votes than other entries, it will win again. I don't think Olimex intended to score cards for breaking, but you can always "swiss cheese" a line of vias to make the board easy to break into parts. Again, this is a monthly contest... if your design isn't ready now, submit it when it is. --- James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3 jamesnewtonspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics