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'[PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses'
2004\02\15@103253 by No Religion

flavicon
face
Hi all,
I'm really losing my mind now, been fighting with this for 8 days
now, I give up. I hope you can tell me what's wrong in my setup. :(

I self made a PIC18F8720 development board, and it seems to work,
because I can program the chip with no problems.

I'm using 100 nF SMD capacitors near every Vdd (including AVdd),
and an integrated clock oscillator. It's a 24 MHz CMOS part by
Epson.

I wrote a simple test program which is supposed to set all ports
to output (via the TRISx registers), and then put all of them to
the "HIGH" logic level (via the PORTx registers).

This is my code, as shown by IC-Prog:
0000: D00F 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0010: 0000 0E00 6E92 6E93 6E94 6E95 6E96 6E97
0018: 6E98 6E99 6E9A 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0020: 0EFF 6E80 6E81 6E82 6E83 6E84 6E85 6E86
0028: 6E87 6E88 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0030: D7DE 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000

And this is the configuration:
Config1  = 2500
Config2  = 000F
Config3  = 0080
Config4  = 0081
Config5  = C0FF
Config6  = E0FF
Config7  = 40FF
ID Value = 0123456789ABCDEF

Is there anything wrong in my machine code (for this quick test
I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.. I tried
it and hated it, I will write my own source level debugger and
assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).

Is the reset vector ok? It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where
it will meet a NOP (no reason in particular) and then the value
00 will be moved to W, which in turn will be moved to all the
TRISx registers. Then W will be loaded with FF, which will be
copied to all the PORTx registers. Finally (through some NOPs,
again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
experiments) there's supposed to be a final BRA back to 0010.
Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

I know it's tedious to go through machine code.. but if you're
kind enough, and if the code or the configuration is wrong, please,
can you point me to the errors?

Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
my code?

I hope to get your valuable help.. I really don't know what to
experiment else.

Kindest regards,
Mike

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2004\02\15@103253 by No Religion

flavicon
face
Hi all,
I'm really losing my mind now, been fighting with this for 8 days
now, I give up. I hope you can tell me what's wrong in my setup. :(

I self made a PIC18F8720 development board, and it seems to work,
because I can program the chip with no problems.

I'm using 100 nF SMD capacitors near every Vdd (including AVdd),
and an integrated clock oscillator. It's a 24 MHz CMOS part by
Epson.

I wrote a simple test program which is supposed to set all ports
to output (via the TRISx registers), and then put all of them to
the "HIGH" logic level (via the PORTx registers).

This is my code, as shown by IC-Prog:
0000: D00F 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0008: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0010: 0000 0E00 6E92 6E93 6E94 6E95 6E96 6E97
0018: 6E98 6E99 6E9A 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0020: 0EFF 6E80 6E81 6E82 6E83 6E84 6E85 6E86
0028: 6E87 6E88 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0030: D7DE 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000

And this is the configuration:
Config1  = 2500
Config2  = 000F
Config3  = 0080
Config4  = 0081
Config5  = C0FF
Config6  = E0FF
Config7  = 40FF
ID Value = 0123456789ABCDEF

Is there anything wrong in my machine code (for this quick test
I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.. I tried
it and hated it, I will write my own source level debugger and
assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).

Is the reset vector ok? It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where
it will meet a NOP (no reason in particular) and then the value
00 will be moved to W, which in turn will be moved to all the
TRISx registers. Then W will be loaded with FF, which will be
copied to all the PORTx registers. Finally (through some NOPs,
again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
experiments) there's supposed to be a final BRA back to 0010.
Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

I know it's tedious to go through machine code.. but if you're
kind enough, and if the code or the configuration is wrong, please,
can you point me to the errors?

Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
my code?

I hope to get your valuable help.. I really don't know what to
experiment else.

Kindest regards,
Mike

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2004\02\15@105259 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
> with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
> others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
> my code?

Never tested with your chip, but there are various blink-a-led programs
on http://www.voti.nl/blink

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\15@105259 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
> with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
> others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
> my code?

Never tested with your chip, but there are various blink-a-led programs
on http://www.voti.nl/blink

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\15@111206 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
No Religion wrote:
> This is my code, as shown by IC-Prog:
> 0000: D00F 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0008: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0010: 0000 0E00 6E92 6E93 6E94 6E95 6E96 6E97
> 0018: 6E98 6E99 6E9A 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0020: 0EFF 6E80 6E81 6E82 6E83 6E84 6E85 6E86
> 0028: 6E87 6E88 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0030: D7DE 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000

You can't be serious!  You actually expect someone else to disassemble this?
Think again.

{Quote hidden}

I doubt to many people are going to waste time trying to find out.  Get
real.

> (for this quick test
> I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.

This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't even
bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've done your
homework.  Until then I've got better things to do.

> I tried it and hated it,

What didn't you like?

> I will write my own source level debugger and
> assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).

I'm not holding my breath.

> It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where it will meet a NOP
> (no reason in particular)

The preferred method is to wave a dead fish of the manual during a full moon
and pick whatever instruction it drips on first.

> Finally (through some NOPs,
> again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
> experiments)

This is going from the rediculous to the idiotic.  With proper assembler
source you could insert any number of instructions later.

> Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

Actually it's the other way around on the 18 family.

> I know it's tedious to go through machine code.

Duh!

> but if you're kind enough,

You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.

> Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
> with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
> others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
> my code?

There are many samples out there, including a bunch on my own web site.
However, they are all written in assembler so I won't bother you with them.

> I hope to get your valuable help.

I bet, but you won't get it until you respect my time.

> I really don't know what to experiment else.

Write your code in assembler, then test it with the MPLAB simulator.  Once
you've taken reasonable steps to understand and diagnose the problem, THEN
you can come back and ask again.  Posting unsimulated raw machine code will
just get you dismissed as an idiot.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2004\02\15@111206 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
No Religion wrote:
> This is my code, as shown by IC-Prog:
> 0000: D00F 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0008: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0010: 0000 0E00 6E92 6E93 6E94 6E95 6E96 6E97
> 0018: 6E98 6E99 6E9A 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0020: 0EFF 6E80 6E81 6E82 6E83 6E84 6E85 6E86
> 0028: 6E87 6E88 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
> 0030: D7DE 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000

You can't be serious!  You actually expect someone else to disassemble this?
Think again.

{Quote hidden}

I doubt to many people are going to waste time trying to find out.  Get
real.

> (for this quick test
> I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.

This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't even
bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've done your
homework.  Until then I've got better things to do.

> I tried it and hated it,

What didn't you like?

> I will write my own source level debugger and
> assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).

I'm not holding my breath.

> It's supposed to be a BRA to 0010, where it will meet a NOP
> (no reason in particular)

The preferred method is to wave a dead fish of the manual during a full moon
and pick whatever instruction it drips on first.

> Finally (through some NOPs,
> again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
> experiments)

This is going from the rediculous to the idiotic.  With proper assembler
source you could insert any number of instructions later.

> Addresses don't represent bytes, but instruction words.

Actually it's the other way around on the 18 family.

> I know it's tedious to go through machine code.

Duh!

> but if you're kind enough,

You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.

> Or, in alternative, could some kind soul post a small .HEX file
> with a demo program that just turns some port pins ON and some
> others OFF, just to see if my problem lies in my hardware or in
> my code?

There are many samples out there, including a bunch on my own web site.
However, they are all written in assembler so I won't bother you with them.

> I hope to get your valuable help.

I bet, but you won't get it until you respect my time.

> I really don't know what to experiment else.

Write your code in assembler, then test it with the MPLAB simulator.  Once
you've taken reasonable steps to understand and diagnose the problem, THEN
you can come back and ask again.  Posting unsimulated raw machine code will
just get you dismissed as an idiot.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2004\02\15@115017 by Dan Devine

picon face
I've gotten this chip to run OK at 20mHz with a generic Digikey
resonator.  Make sure you have your oscillator configured correctly.

Can you single step the code?...Try setting breakpoints...What appears
in the watch windows as you move through...

I've had some functional problems when I pick the wrong oscillator type,
looks like it programs but then the other tests fail...
Try that, it's easy and direct...


DD

On Sun, 2004-02-15 at 07:16, No Religion wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\15@115017 by Dan Devine

picon face
I've gotten this chip to run OK at 20mHz with a generic Digikey
resonator.  Make sure you have your oscillator configured correctly.

Can you single step the code?...Try setting breakpoints...What appears
in the watch windows as you move through...

I've had some functional problems when I pick the wrong oscillator type,
looks like it programs but then the other tests fail...
Try that, it's easy and direct...


DD

On Sun, 2004-02-15 at 07:16, No Religion wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\15@160100 by Jinx

face picon face
> Is there anything wrong in my machine code (for this quick
> test I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.. I tried
> it and hated it

If you do manage to get anyone to bite, they'll more than likely
reach for.........MPLAB

Now, I haven't entered code like this since the balmy days of
Compute ! Gazette, but trying D00F produces BRA 0x0020.
Which isn't BRA 0x0010. No smurfin' way. Mistake in line 1
isn't encouraging. D007

If you're stuck at this most very basic debugging level I wish you
all the luck in the world trying to write anything half-decent without
an editor. Hopefully you'll live to a ripe old age and have plenty of
time to finish that first program

> I will write my own source level debugger and assembler and
> release it to the PD after I'm finished)

That's just re-inventing the wheel. And axle, bearings, motor,
airbags, speeding tickets........

I want to write my own editor too. Almost as much as I don't
want to. Whether you want to or not, you should give MPLAB
another try. There are the odd bits in it I'm not crazy about but
"hate" ? Nah

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2004\02\15@160100 by Jinx

face picon face
> Is there anything wrong in my machine code (for this quick
> test I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.. I tried
> it and hated it

If you do manage to get anyone to bite, they'll more than likely
reach for.........MPLAB

Now, I haven't entered code like this since the balmy days of
Compute ! Gazette, but trying D00F produces BRA 0x0020.
Which isn't BRA 0x0010. No smurfin' way. Mistake in line 1
isn't encouraging. D007

If you're stuck at this most very basic debugging level I wish you
all the luck in the world trying to write anything half-decent without
an editor. Hopefully you'll live to a ripe old age and have plenty of
time to finish that first program

> I will write my own source level debugger and assembler and
> release it to the PD after I'm finished)

That's just re-inventing the wheel. And axle, bearings, motor,
airbags, speeding tickets........

I want to write my own editor too. Almost as much as I don't
want to. Whether you want to or not, you should give MPLAB
another try. There are the odd bits in it I'm not crazy about but
"hate" ? Nah

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2004\02\15@183257 by Edward Gisske

flavicon
face
Olin,

Please try to come to grips with your inner nice guy and ponder how your
posts will be evaluated before you send them.

Berating someone for being an idiot for asking an honest question is bad
form. Not all of the world is in possession of your infinite technical
knowledge or legendary skill.

Most of the world, however, seems to exhibit much better manners.

Chill, Please!!!

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\15@183257 by Edward Gisske

flavicon
face
Olin,

Please try to come to grips with your inner nice guy and ponder how your
posts will be evaluated before you send them.

Berating someone for being an idiot for asking an honest question is bad
form. Not all of the world is in possession of your infinite technical
knowledge or legendary skill.

Most of the world, however, seems to exhibit much better manners.

Chill, Please!!!

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\15@203036 by James Nick Sears

picon face
> This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't even
> bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've done your
> homework.  Until then I've got better things to do.

Olin,

I don't think anyone specifically asked you for help.

How about you do those things that you've got to do, refrain from posting,
and let someone else handle the poster's question when you feel this way.
Then you're not wasting everyone else's time.

Thanks,
Nick

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2004\02\15@203036 by James Nick Sears

picon face
> This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't even
> bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've done your
> homework.  Until then I've got better things to do.

Olin,

I don't think anyone specifically asked you for help.

How about you do those things that you've got to do, refrain from posting,
and let someone else handle the poster's question when you feel this way.
Then you're not wasting everyone else's time.

Thanks,
Nick

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2004\02\15@231742 by adastra

flavicon
face
I for one completely disagree.  You gonna delete me too?

Foster


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
{Quote hidden}

disassemble
{Quote hidden}

Get
> > real.
> >
> > > (for this quick test
> > > I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.
> >
> > This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't
even
> > bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've
done
{Quote hidden}

full
> moon
> > and pick whatever instruction it drips on first.
> >
> > > Finally (through some NOPs,
> > > again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
> > > experiments)
> >
> > This is going from the rediculous to the idiotic.  With proper
assembler
{Quote hidden}

site.
> > However, they are all written in assembler so I won't bother you
with
{Quote hidden}

problem,
> THEN
> > you can come back and ask again.  Posting unsimulated raw machine
code
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\15@231742 by adastra

flavicon
face
I for one completely disagree.  You gonna delete me too?

Foster


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
{Quote hidden}

disassemble
{Quote hidden}

Get
> > real.
> >
> > > (for this quick test
> > > I don't want to nor I think I need to install MP-Lab.
> >
> > This is rediculous.  You are asking for help with code you haven't
even
> > bothered to run past the MPLAB simulator.  Come back when you've
done
{Quote hidden}

full
> moon
> > and pick whatever instruction it drips on first.
> >
> > > Finally (through some NOPs,
> > > again, just to leave some space for inserting other code for
> > > experiments)
> >
> > This is going from the rediculous to the idiotic.  With proper
assembler
{Quote hidden}

site.
> > However, they are all written in assembler so I won't bother you
with
{Quote hidden}

problem,
> THEN
> > you can come back and ask again.  Posting unsimulated raw machine
code
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\15@235517 by Jinx

face picon face
Your code disassembles to

00000 BRA 0X20

NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP

00012 MOVLW 0
00014 MOVWF TRISA, 0
etc etc etc
00024 MOVWF TRISJ, 0

NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP

00030 MOVLW 0XFF
00032 MOVWF PORTA, 0
etc etc etc
00042 MOVWF PORTJ, 0

As for decoding the CONFIGs ? Pass. Don't even know if you
can break those numbers down into plainspeak with MPLAB,
never thought you'd ever need to

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2004\02\15@235517 by Jinx

face picon face
Your code disassembles to

00000 BRA 0X20

NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP

00012 MOVLW 0
00014 MOVWF TRISA, 0
etc etc etc
00024 MOVWF TRISJ, 0

NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP

00030 MOVLW 0XFF
00032 MOVWF PORTA, 0
etc etc etc
00042 MOVWF PORTJ, 0

As for decoding the CONFIGs ? Pass. Don't even know if you
can break those numbers down into plainspeak with MPLAB,
never thought you'd ever need to

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2004\02\16@024513 by Jinx

face picon face
> > An important point not to be missed is the outcome for the
> > original questioner. If a significant number of people usefully
> > assist him in increasing his capabilities then he will be well
> > served

> This is from pp.239-249 of the datasheet

Rather than pick through all those Section 23 tables adding up
bits, it would be far better and speedier for the OP to use an editor
that can make use of .inc files so as to be able to make a readable
and more easily changed CONFIG statement. For example

__CONFIG _CONFIG2L, _BOR_ON_2L & _BORV_45_2L & _PWRT_ON_2L

not a number that has to be checked (possibly again and again)
when something goes wrong or doesn't even work to begin with

Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century

And the 18F6720 isn't a trivial PIC. If you're needing to use it,
you mean business and need all the help you can get

Sorry, I'm usually a bit more charitable than this, but c'mon

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2004\02\16@024513 by Jinx

face picon face
> > An important point not to be missed is the outcome for the
> > original questioner. If a significant number of people usefully
> > assist him in increasing his capabilities then he will be well
> > served

> This is from pp.239-249 of the datasheet

Rather than pick through all those Section 23 tables adding up
bits, it would be far better and speedier for the OP to use an editor
that can make use of .inc files so as to be able to make a readable
and more easily changed CONFIG statement. For example

__CONFIG _CONFIG2L, _BOR_ON_2L & _BORV_45_2L & _PWRT_ON_2L

not a number that has to be checked (possibly again and again)
when something goes wrong or doesn't even work to begin with

Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century

And the 18F6720 isn't a trivial PIC. If you're needing to use it,
you mean business and need all the help you can get

Sorry, I'm usually a bit more charitable than this, but c'mon

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2004\02\16@032754 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
Much as I hate to stick up for Olin ;-) apart from the name calling, I'm
right behind him on this one. I too have seen many posts from newbies asking
the most trivial questions most of which would be answered with a quick look
at piclist.com or even at the .pdf file for the microcontroller.

Olin seems to be one of these people who speaks his mind (sometimes without
thinking) and while it may come across as abrupt and rude, this is just
Olin. I've been at the receiving end (mildly though) and have not taken
offence. I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his sometimes brash
posts (which I actually find quite amusing most of the time).

Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin both from a
technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Dom
{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@032754 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
Much as I hate to stick up for Olin ;-) apart from the name calling, I'm
right behind him on this one. I too have seen many posts from newbies asking
the most trivial questions most of which would be answered with a quick look
at piclist.com or even at the .pdf file for the microcontroller.

Olin seems to be one of these people who speaks his mind (sometimes without
thinking) and while it may come across as abrupt and rude, this is just
Olin. I've been at the receiving end (mildly though) and have not taken
offence. I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his sometimes brash
posts (which I actually find quite amusing most of the time).

Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin both from a
technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Dom
{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@033832 by Per

flavicon
face
Please delete me as well. Some of us are professionals.
At one time that was: Many of us are pro's.

I think you have overreacted, probably because of a word that
in this case was quite appropriate.
If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this
guy calls many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much
better tool, while we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc. At the
same time he asks for help at a level that reveals that he does
not know much at all about microprocessors. So I think Olin's
reaction (and comments) are both fair and approproate.

Regards,
Per Linne
Sweden


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@033832 by Per

flavicon
face
Please delete me as well. Some of us are professionals.
At one time that was: Many of us are pro's.

I think you have overreacted, probably because of a word that
in this case was quite appropriate.
If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this
guy calls many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much
better tool, while we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc. At the
same time he asks for help at a level that reveals that he does
not know much at all about microprocessors. So I think Olin's
reaction (and comments) are both fair and approproate.

Regards,
Per Linne
Sweden


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@034249 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I'm really losing my mind now, been fighting with this for 8 days
> now, I give up. I hope you can tell me what's wrong in my setup. :(

The following will hopefully be helpful:

It is extremely difficult to work at the machine code level with a processor
like the PIC18F series withput making mistakes. The difficulty that results
is almost certainly going going to be greater than the difficulty in
learning how to use some basic free software tools. Even if you don't want
to use MPLAB using its IDE (Integrated Development Environment) you can
still use the accompanying assembler. MPLAB includes is a command line
assembler * MPASM.EXE. If your assembly language code is named mycode.asm it
can be assembeed froma  command line with as simple a statement as
                             MPASM mycode

this creates listing, hex and (hopefully empty) error files. You can use
this without touching any other part of MPLAB and still greatly decrease the
chance of making erors and increase the speed of getting a working result.

Next level up - if you just run

                       MPASM

you get a DOS level user interface that lets you specify a few basic
parameter changes.

Both the above require you to learn PIC assembly language. However, this is
an UTTERLY ESSENTIAL requirement for any sort of serious work. While it is
possible to stay at the machine language level forever, and while it will
give you an excellent feel for how the processor works, it is so utterly
unproductive and difficult compared to using assembler that you should start
to use PIC assembler as soon as possible. (I learned to program
microprocessors using machine language alone without the benefit of an
assembler, (86 20, B7 8004, CE .... ) but I wouldn't recommend that anybody
do it nowadays for productive work (maybe for the purposes of training).

Reading between the lines it sounds like you are capable, to some extent at
least, in both hardware and software and possibly extremely capable. Do try
and get accustomed to the rest of MPLAB - it's a useful tool once you manage
to do so.



regards



               Russell McMahon

* - I assume that the command line assembler MPASM.EXE comes with newer
versions of MPLAB. If not, it is available with older versions and could be
provided by someone on this list if you need it. (always assuming that
assuming Microchip's fineprint allows transfer of part of their free
software in this manner ;-) ).

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2004\02\16@034249 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I'm really losing my mind now, been fighting with this for 8 days
> now, I give up. I hope you can tell me what's wrong in my setup. :(

The following will hopefully be helpful:

It is extremely difficult to work at the machine code level with a processor
like the PIC18F series withput making mistakes. The difficulty that results
is almost certainly going going to be greater than the difficulty in
learning how to use some basic free software tools. Even if you don't want
to use MPLAB using its IDE (Integrated Development Environment) you can
still use the accompanying assembler. MPLAB includes is a command line
assembler * MPASM.EXE. If your assembly language code is named mycode.asm it
can be assembeed froma  command line with as simple a statement as
                             MPASM mycode

this creates listing, hex and (hopefully empty) error files. You can use
this without touching any other part of MPLAB and still greatly decrease the
chance of making erors and increase the speed of getting a working result.

Next level up - if you just run

                       MPASM

you get a DOS level user interface that lets you specify a few basic
parameter changes.

Both the above require you to learn PIC assembly language. However, this is
an UTTERLY ESSENTIAL requirement for any sort of serious work. While it is
possible to stay at the machine language level forever, and while it will
give you an excellent feel for how the processor works, it is so utterly
unproductive and difficult compared to using assembler that you should start
to use PIC assembler as soon as possible. (I learned to program
microprocessors using machine language alone without the benefit of an
assembler, (86 20, B7 8004, CE .... ) but I wouldn't recommend that anybody
do it nowadays for productive work (maybe for the purposes of training).

Reading between the lines it sounds like you are capable, to some extent at
least, in both hardware and software and possibly extremely capable. Do try
and get accustomed to the rest of MPLAB - it's a useful tool once you manage
to do so.



regards



               Russell McMahon

* - I assume that the command line assembler MPASM.EXE comes with newer
versions of MPLAB. If not, it is available with older versions and could be
provided by someone on this list if you need it. (always assuming that
assuming Microchip's fineprint allows transfer of part of their free
software in this manner ;-) ).

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2004\02\16@034458 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
Stay or leave as you wish. Don't call people names.


---
James.


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of Per
Sent: 2004 Feb 16, Mon 12:36
To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses
Importance: Low

Please delete me as well. Some of us are professionals.
At one time that was: Many of us are pro's.

I think you have overreacted, probably because of a word that in this case
was quite appropriate.
If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this guy calls
many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much better tool, while
we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc. At the same time he asks for help at a
level that reveals that he does not know much at all about microprocessors.
So I think Olin's reaction (and comments) are both fair and approproate.

Regards,
Per Linne
Sweden


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, Host" <jamesnewtonEraseMEspamPICLIST.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:43 AM
Subject: FW: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@034458 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
Stay or leave as you wish. Don't call people names.


---
James.


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of Per
Sent: 2004 Feb 16, Mon 12:36
To: RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses
Importance: Low

Please delete me as well. Some of us are professionals.
At one time that was: Many of us are pro's.

I think you have overreacted, probably because of a word that in this case
was quite appropriate.
If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this guy calls
many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much better tool, while
we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc. At the same time he asks for help at a
level that reveals that he does not know much at all about microprocessors.
So I think Olin's reaction (and comments) are both fair and approproate.

Regards,
Per Linne
Sweden


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, Host" <.....jamesnewton@spam@spamEraseMEPICLIST.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:43 AM
Subject: FW: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@040817 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Dominic Stratten wrote :

> Much as I hate to stick up for Olin ;-) apart from the name
> calling, I'm right behind him on this one....

> ...I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his
> sometimes brash posts (which I actually find quite amusing
> most of the time).
>
> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin
> both from a technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Hi.
I too was a little surprised when I saw James message.

Does anyone actualy know what the O.P says about it ?
Has the list admins been in contact with him ? Or has the O.P
complainted to the list admins ? Or does the list admins just
take action no matter if someone was offended or not (well,
besides of the list admins, of course) ?

Has *anyone* (non-list admin) asked for having Olin removed ?

Who knows, Olins post might actualy have been what
got the O.P on the right track with his PIC development !?

What would be realy interesting now, is a reaction from the O.P !
And, I'd also like to hear what Olins thinks about it...

My bet is that Olin will be back on-list in a few days.

Best Regards
Jan-Erik.

PS.
As a side effect, since Olin don't like personal mails, how
are we going to get (free) support for his dev envir now :-) :-)

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2004\02\16@040817 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Dominic Stratten wrote :

> Much as I hate to stick up for Olin ;-) apart from the name
> calling, I'm right behind him on this one....

> ...I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his
> sometimes brash posts (which I actually find quite amusing
> most of the time).
>
> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin
> both from a technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Hi.
I too was a little surprised when I saw James message.

Does anyone actualy know what the O.P says about it ?
Has the list admins been in contact with him ? Or has the O.P
complainted to the list admins ? Or does the list admins just
take action no matter if someone was offended or not (well,
besides of the list admins, of course) ?

Has *anyone* (non-list admin) asked for having Olin removed ?

Who knows, Olins post might actualy have been what
got the O.P on the right track with his PIC development !?

What would be realy interesting now, is a reaction from the O.P !
And, I'd also like to hear what Olins thinks about it...

My bet is that Olin will be back on-list in a few days.

Best Regards
Jan-Erik.

PS.
As a side effect, since Olin don't like personal mails, how
are we going to get (free) support for his dev envir now :-) :-)

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2004\02\16@044006 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I too have seen many posts from newbies asking
> the most trivial questions most of which would be answered with a quick
look
> at piclist.com or even at the .pdf file for the microcontroller.

This wasn't the case here.
The man demonstrated remarkable ability if he is indeed a beginner.
I suspect technophobia at certain levels.

> Olin seems to be one of these people who speaks his mind (sometimes
without
> thinking) and while it may come across as abrupt and rude,

That should read ' ... and while it is often enough abrupt and rude ..."

> this is just
> Olin. I've been at the receiving end (mildly though) and have not taken
> offence. I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his sometimes brash
> posts (which I actually find quite amusing most of the time).

I think we have to separate the two issues.
I don't think we want to retain Olin DESPITE his rudeness BECAUSE of his
usefulness.
I think we want to retain Olin DESPITE his rudeness while making it clear
that such treatment of a 1st poster is utterly beyond the pale, and should
be used with due care with list members who are used to him.

People's usefulness should be independent of what behaviour we accept from
them. (According to me anyway :-) ).

> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin both from a
> technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Agree. I'd like to see him remain.
I'd also like to see him give new posters a FEW chances to get established
too before letting fly.

We could let Jinx decide when  - "OK, if you still refuse to take notice of
my advice I'll turn on the <OLIN> mode .... " :-) .


   RM

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2004\02\16@044006 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I too have seen many posts from newbies asking
> the most trivial questions most of which would be answered with a quick
look
> at piclist.com or even at the .pdf file for the microcontroller.

This wasn't the case here.
The man demonstrated remarkable ability if he is indeed a beginner.
I suspect technophobia at certain levels.

> Olin seems to be one of these people who speaks his mind (sometimes
without
> thinking) and while it may come across as abrupt and rude,

That should read ' ... and while it is often enough abrupt and rude ..."

> this is just
> Olin. I've been at the receiving end (mildly though) and have not taken
> offence. I find that Olin's usefulness far outweighs his sometimes brash
> posts (which I actually find quite amusing most of the time).

I think we have to separate the two issues.
I don't think we want to retain Olin DESPITE his rudeness BECAUSE of his
usefulness.
I think we want to retain Olin DESPITE his rudeness while making it clear
that such treatment of a 1st poster is utterly beyond the pale, and should
be used with due care with list members who are used to him.

People's usefulness should be independent of what behaviour we accept from
them. (According to me anyway :-) ).

> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin both from a
> technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

Agree. I'd like to see him remain.
I'd also like to see him give new posters a FEW chances to get established
too before letting fly.

We could let Jinx decide when  - "OK, if you still refuse to take notice of
my advice I'll turn on the <OLIN> mode .... " :-) .


   RM

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2004\02\16@044008 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Please delete me as well.

Please see the FAQ for unsubscribe instructions :-)

> Some of us are professionals.

No religion MAY be too (notwithstanding his email name).

> If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this
> guy calls many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
> We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much
> better tool, while we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc.

I can't imagine that you would seriously read that into such a post in other
circumstances.

> At the same time he asks for help at a level that reveals that he does
> not know much at all about microprocessors.

He may surprise us.
He has,
- apparently built a PIC 18fxxx system and programmed a PIC therein.
- correctly deduced the basic structure of PIC machine code (not many here
even bother) and
- written a largely correct small program
- understood enough to insert NOPs to allow extra instructions to be
inserted.
- understood the far from trivial configuration words
I think he's probably not a total beginner - just a very uniformed expert
waiting to be encouraged and guided :-)

> So I think Olin's
> reaction (and comments) are both fair and appropriate.

Disagree on both points.
But I'd still like to see him as a list member.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\02\16@044008 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Please delete me as well.

Please see the FAQ for unsubscribe instructions :-)

> Some of us are professionals.

No religion MAY be too (notwithstanding his email name).

> If you read the original question carefully, you'll see that this
> guy calls many of us idiots, although in a more covered form:
> We use MPLAB which is useless, he is going to make a much
> better tool, while we apes struggle with MPLAB, etc.

I can't imagine that you would seriously read that into such a post in other
circumstances.

> At the same time he asks for help at a level that reveals that he does
> not know much at all about microprocessors.

He may surprise us.
He has,
- apparently built a PIC 18fxxx system and programmed a PIC therein.
- correctly deduced the basic structure of PIC machine code (not many here
even bother) and
- written a largely correct small program
- understood enough to insert NOPs to allow extra instructions to be
inserted.
- understood the far from trivial configuration words
I think he's probably not a total beginner - just a very uniformed expert
waiting to be encouraged and guided :-)

> So I think Olin's
> reaction (and comments) are both fair and appropriate.

Disagree on both points.
But I'd still like to see him as a list member.



       Russell McMahon

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2004\02\16@045707 by gtyler

flavicon
face
Install and get used to Mplab. That will solve most of your problems.

George

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Devine" <dannyboy259spam_OUTspam@spam@COMCAST.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> I've gotten this chip to run OK at 20mHz with a generic Digikey
> resonator.  Make sure you have your oscillator configured correctly.
>
> Can you single step the code?...Try setting breakpoints...What appears
> in the watch windows as you move through...
>
> I've had some functional problems when I pick the wrong oscillator
type,
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@045707 by gtyler

flavicon
face
Install and get used to Mplab. That will solve most of your problems.

George

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Devine" <.....dannyboy259spamRemoveMECOMCAST.NET>
To: <PICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> I've gotten this chip to run OK at 20mHz with a generic Digikey
> resonator.  Make sure you have your oscillator configured correctly.
>
> Can you single step the code?...Try setting breakpoints...What appears
> in the watch windows as you move through...
>
> I've had some functional problems when I pick the wrong oscillator
type,
{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@050951 by Jinx

face picon face
> We could let Jinx decide when  - "OK, if you still refuse to take
> notice of my advice I'll turn on the <OLIN> mode .... " :-)

Nah, wouldn't do that. I simply can't work when I'm grumpy
or pre-occupied with something that I know I shouldn't be
pre-occupied with 'cos that'll make me grumpy

As you say RM, Olin was in one of those shoot-first moods and
really should have ignored the OP. And that was his undoing.
Nobody came out a winner. James had indeed made the
position quite clear previously. If you wave a big stick you have
to be prepared to use it one day. Hopefully any newbies who are
wondering what the hell kind of list they've joined will not be
discouraged from posting. I hesitate to say "Ding dong the witch
is dead", as that would be rather cruel wouldn't it ? ;-)

As for not reading manuals and so on - it seems to me that
schooling has changed so much that perhaps those kinds
of skills just aren't there anymore. I have nephews that are
interested in technology and ask me all sorts of things that
would be very easy to look up with Google. But they simply
don't think of doing so. Until I suggest it to them. Every time

================================================

BTW anyone ever seen the Brit series "That'll Teach 'em" ?

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/T/teachem/

Eye-opener. Modern kids sent back in time to be taught how
they would have been in the '50s. Shocks a'plenty

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2004\02\16@050951 by Jinx

face picon face
> We could let Jinx decide when  - "OK, if you still refuse to take
> notice of my advice I'll turn on the <OLIN> mode .... " :-)

Nah, wouldn't do that. I simply can't work when I'm grumpy
or pre-occupied with something that I know I shouldn't be
pre-occupied with 'cos that'll make me grumpy

As you say RM, Olin was in one of those shoot-first moods and
really should have ignored the OP. And that was his undoing.
Nobody came out a winner. James had indeed made the
position quite clear previously. If you wave a big stick you have
to be prepared to use it one day. Hopefully any newbies who are
wondering what the hell kind of list they've joined will not be
discouraged from posting. I hesitate to say "Ding dong the witch
is dead", as that would be rather cruel wouldn't it ? ;-)

As for not reading manuals and so on - it seems to me that
schooling has changed so much that perhaps those kinds
of skills just aren't there anymore. I have nephews that are
interested in technology and ask me all sorts of things that
would be very easy to look up with Google. But they simply
don't think of doing so. Until I suggest it to them. Every time

================================================

BTW anyone ever seen the Brit series "That'll Teach 'em" ?

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/T/teachem/

Eye-opener. Modern kids sent back in time to be taught how
they would have been in the '50s. Shocks a'plenty

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2004\02\16@054801 by Brian Clewer

flavicon
face
James Wrote:

>
>
> Olin has been deleted from the PICList.
>
> No amount of excellent advice is worth being called an idiot.
>
>
> ---
> James.
>

I think we all have bad days and Olin does seem to speak his mind without
thinking too much about how it will offend people.  Whilst I agree you
shouldn't call people an idiot (or any other names for that matter) I think
a suspension from the list would be more appropriate.  Over the years, I
think Olin has done more good than harm.  Perhaps there ought to be a
structure in place where you are warned if you behave inappropriately.  Do
it again and you are suspended and ultimately expelled.

I am sure that if Olin is allowed back, he is going to read the email back
before it is sent to make sure it's not going to purposely offend anyone.

I say give him another chance.

Brian.

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2004\02\16@054801 by Brian Clewer

flavicon
face
James Wrote:

>
>
> Olin has been deleted from the PICList.
>
> No amount of excellent advice is worth being called an idiot.
>
>
> ---
> James.
>

I think we all have bad days and Olin does seem to speak his mind without
thinking too much about how it will offend people.  Whilst I agree you
shouldn't call people an idiot (or any other names for that matter) I think
a suspension from the list would be more appropriate.  Over the years, I
think Olin has done more good than harm.  Perhaps there ought to be a
structure in place where you are warned if you behave inappropriately.  Do
it again and you are suspended and ultimately expelled.

I am sure that if Olin is allowed back, he is going to read the email back
before it is sent to make sure it's not going to purposely offend anyone.

I say give him another chance.

Brian.

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2004\02\16@065145 by Jonathan Johnson
flavicon
face
I say give Olin another go.

His advice is quite often presented in just the right manner to 'jolt' a
person into seeing something that they should have known better.

Which in this case may be appropriate, taking into consideration the OP's
apparent technical ability. Whilst Olin's manner may at times seem balls out
rude (I myself can and have been guilty of this) I think it is nonetheless
an important part of the list environment, variety is the spice of life and
well if a person cant handle being given a bit of a verbal lashing then
perhaps they should toughen up a bit in order to survive in life.

A fair while ago on list there was an engineer that posted a thorough sob
story and feeling utterly sorry for themselves. (if I remember
correctly)That person got a dose of both kind words and a thorough verbal
beating for being such a self pitying fool. It was the combination that
ended up snapping that person out of their depression and motivated them to
give it a real go. The point is, kind words are great when appropriate, but
if someone is deserving of it, then I say go ahead and give them a mouthful,
this is the big peoples world.....not kindergarten.
Olin didn't call the person a f%$king idiot after all.

By the way, what IS the other persons opinion on the matter, were they
offended and if so do they know how much benefit olins advice can be?

Just a note for the OP, anonymous names on list can tend to get the disdain
they deserve. This isn't a porn chat room, give people some respect and at
least tell them your real name (even first name).


Sometimes we just have to brave the cactus prickles to get the good bits.

Besides, sometimes Olin's posts almost have me in stitches laughing ;-).

Best regards to all,

Jonathan


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@065145 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
I say give Olin another go.

His advice is quite often presented in just the right manner to 'jolt' a
person into seeing something that they should have known better.

Which in this case may be appropriate, taking into consideration the OP's
apparent technical ability. Whilst Olin's manner may at times seem balls out
rude (I myself can and have been guilty of this) I think it is nonetheless
an important part of the list environment, variety is the spice of life and
well if a person cant handle being given a bit of a verbal lashing then
perhaps they should toughen up a bit in order to survive in life.

A fair while ago on list there was an engineer that posted a thorough sob
story and feeling utterly sorry for themselves. (if I remember
correctly)That person got a dose of both kind words and a thorough verbal
beating for being such a self pitying fool. It was the combination that
ended up snapping that person out of their depression and motivated them to
give it a real go. The point is, kind words are great when appropriate, but
if someone is deserving of it, then I say go ahead and give them a mouthful,
this is the big peoples world.....not kindergarten.
Olin didn't call the person a f%$king idiot after all.

By the way, what IS the other persons opinion on the matter, were they
offended and if so do they know how much benefit olins advice can be?

Just a note for the OP, anonymous names on list can tend to get the disdain
they deserve. This isn't a porn chat room, give people some respect and at
least tell them your real name (even first name).


Sometimes we just have to brave the cactus prickles to get the good bits.

Besides, sometimes Olin's posts almost have me in stitches laughing ;-).

Best regards to all,

Jonathan


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@082917 by Charles Rogers

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----


> I say give Olin another go

I SAY NO ! !   This individual has had more chances now than he deserves.
On January  6, 2004
(Pic as an 12c slave)  James Newton said "FINAL WARNING: Keept it polite or
shove off."



I think it is nonetheless
> an important part of the list environment, variety is the spice of life
and
> well if a person cant handle being given a bit of a verbal lashing then
> perhaps they should toughen up a bit in order to survive in life.


If a first time poster has to "toughen up a bit" to survive his first post
then
the list maby should re-evaluate itself.





> Olin didn't call the person a f%$king idiot after all.

He may not have resorted to his ususal name calling this time but he
has in the past. Just check the archives.


> I say give him another chance.

I say NO.  He wasn't  removed for this one particular instance,  he was
removed
for a lot of similar instances much worse than this one.  Have you ever
heard the
expression "THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK" ?

There may me an alternative.   Maby James Newton could intercept all of his
replys
and edit or delete them before they leave the server.  Or do as some people
do
and just simply delete everything with his name on it before opening the
e-mail

My 2c

CR

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2004\02\16@082917 by Charles Rogers

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----


> I say give Olin another go

I SAY NO ! !   This individual has had more chances now than he deserves.
On January  6, 2004
(Pic as an 12c slave)  James Newton said "FINAL WARNING: Keept it polite or
shove off."



I think it is nonetheless
> an important part of the list environment, variety is the spice of life
and
> well if a person cant handle being given a bit of a verbal lashing then
> perhaps they should toughen up a bit in order to survive in life.


If a first time poster has to "toughen up a bit" to survive his first post
then
the list maby should re-evaluate itself.





> Olin didn't call the person a f%$king idiot after all.

He may not have resorted to his ususal name calling this time but he
has in the past. Just check the archives.


> I say give him another chance.

I say NO.  He wasn't  removed for this one particular instance,  he was
removed
for a lot of similar instances much worse than this one.  Have you ever
heard the
expression "THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK" ?

There may me an alternative.   Maby James Newton could intercept all of his
replys
and edit or delete them before they leave the server.  Or do as some people
do
and just simply delete everything with his name on it before opening the
e-mail

My 2c

CR

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2004\02\16@083127 by Larry Bradley

flavicon
face
There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.

One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
the nose if they did it in person.

At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
I'm sure, Olin's first question.

The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
whether he will be insulted or laughed at.

Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.

"RTFM" is a barely adequate response (admittedly, a lot more people should
R the FM before asking questions, but human nature being what it is ...).
"RTFM you idiot" is not.


At 11:00 PM 2/16/2004 +1100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@083127 by Larry Bradley

flavicon
face
There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.

One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
the nose if they did it in person.

At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
I'm sure, Olin's first question.

The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
whether he will be insulted or laughed at.

Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.

"RTFM" is a barely adequate response (admittedly, a lot more people should
R the FM before asking questions, but human nature being what it is ...).
"RTFM you idiot" is not.


At 11:00 PM 2/16/2004 +1100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@105638 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.

I've *always* hated that cliche about there being no stupid questions.
Yes, there are questions, that in a given context, are stupid.

> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.

Yes, that is rude and ignorant, even more so than the initial question.

> At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
> was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
> I'm sure, Olin's first question.

Now that would be interesting to see... Do the archives go back that
far?

> The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
> to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
> eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
> whether he will be insulted or laughed at.

You are right. I've been working in higher education for 25 year, and I
think you're right. However, it seems that there aren't a whole lot of
good teachers out there.

And this forum is not answered by teachers. It is answered by real people,
with all that entails. Some of the posters here *are* good teachers. Some
of them are really good at what they do.

> Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.

Agreed. And he was warned by James that the next time he goes off the
handle he would be expelled.

I just don't think that *this* time fit the definition. However, I'm
not the list owner, and I don't know what happened off-list. I suspect
that Olin generated enough administrative traffic to cause James some
problems.

> "RTFM" is a barely adequate response (admittedly, a lot more people should
> R the FM before asking questions, but human nature being what it is ...).
> "RTFM you idiot" is not.

Agreed on all counts here. I think that things would go a lot more
smoothly if people would leave the name-calling to children. It is
possible to phrase things just a bit more diplomatically so that the
message goes across more smoothly.
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2004\02\16@105638 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.

I've *always* hated that cliche about there being no stupid questions.
Yes, there are questions, that in a given context, are stupid.

> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.

Yes, that is rude and ignorant, even more so than the initial question.

> At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
> was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
> I'm sure, Olin's first question.

Now that would be interesting to see... Do the archives go back that
far?

> The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
> to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
> eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
> whether he will be insulted or laughed at.

You are right. I've been working in higher education for 25 year, and I
think you're right. However, it seems that there aren't a whole lot of
good teachers out there.

And this forum is not answered by teachers. It is answered by real people,
with all that entails. Some of the posters here *are* good teachers. Some
of them are really good at what they do.

> Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.

Agreed. And he was warned by James that the next time he goes off the
handle he would be expelled.

I just don't think that *this* time fit the definition. However, I'm
not the list owner, and I don't know what happened off-list. I suspect
that Olin generated enough administrative traffic to cause James some
problems.

> "RTFM" is a barely adequate response (admittedly, a lot more people should
> R the FM before asking questions, but human nature being what it is ...).
> "RTFM you idiot" is not.

Agreed on all counts here. I think that things would go a lot more
smoothly if people would leave the name-calling to children. It is
possible to phrase things just a bit more diplomatically so that the
message goes across more smoothly.
--
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RemoveMEjayspam_OUTspamsprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@105848 by Bruce Partridge

flavicon
face
> [PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
>
> Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
> comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century
>

Surely not last century.  You make me feel old :-)  We had to cold start our
Sperry Univac/Varian minicomputers from the front panel as recently as 1974.
We put the paper tape boot loader in through the front panel, then fed the
paper tape in which created teletype and magnetic tape drivers.  The mag
tape system generation (setup) program ran with interactive instructions
from the teletype.  A typing mistake could make you lose an hour's work.
And, of course, we wrote the paper tape driver in assembler first.

We hated it at the time, and I can't imagine anyone working in machine code
voluntarily.  It adds nothing to the development process at the expense of
huge amounts of tedious work that the computer will always do better than a
human can.

And while I'm on my soap box, the more I work with C, the more I'm finding
that there is VERY little room for improvement by going to assembler.  One
of my current projects was jammed, so I have spent weeks analyzing the code.
There were no big gains to be had by converting to assembler.  All of the
gains have been acheived by smarter design.  There is no doubt that there
are a few places where the compiler wastes a few bytes, but I haven't found
anything that would justify the loss of productivity in using assembler.
There is no doubt, though, that it is worthwhile to examine the assembler.
I have cut functions in half through some restructuring.

I am very interested in getting the best value for my effort, so I'm open to
correction here, but after looking at the generated code, but I really
couldn't do it any tighter directly.  To put this in perspective, my project
is over 30,000 bytes, so saving 500 bytes wouldn't come close to justifying
converting it to assembler.


Bruce Partridge
http://www.rebreather.ca
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2004\02\16@105848 by Bruce Partridge

flavicon
face
> [spam_OUTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
>
> Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
> comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century
>

Surely not last century.  You make me feel old :-)  We had to cold start our
Sperry Univac/Varian minicomputers from the front panel as recently as 1974.
We put the paper tape boot loader in through the front panel, then fed the
paper tape in which created teletype and magnetic tape drivers.  The mag
tape system generation (setup) program ran with interactive instructions
from the teletype.  A typing mistake could make you lose an hour's work.
And, of course, we wrote the paper tape driver in assembler first.

We hated it at the time, and I can't imagine anyone working in machine code
voluntarily.  It adds nothing to the development process at the expense of
huge amounts of tedious work that the computer will always do better than a
human can.

And while I'm on my soap box, the more I work with C, the more I'm finding
that there is VERY little room for improvement by going to assembler.  One
of my current projects was jammed, so I have spent weeks analyzing the code.
There were no big gains to be had by converting to assembler.  All of the
gains have been acheived by smarter design.  There is no doubt that there
are a few places where the compiler wastes a few bytes, but I haven't found
anything that would justify the loss of productivity in using assembler.
There is no doubt, though, that it is worthwhile to examine the assembler.
I have cut functions in half through some restructuring.

I am very interested in getting the best value for my effort, so I'm open to
correction here, but after looking at the generated code, but I really
couldn't do it any tighter directly.  To put this in perspective, my project
is over 30,000 bytes, so saving 500 bytes wouldn't come close to justifying
converting it to assembler.


Bruce Partridge
http://www.rebreather.ca
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2004\02\16@111129 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > [PICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
> >
> > Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
> > comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century
>
> Surely not last century.  You make me feel old :-)  We had to cold start our
> Sperry Univac/Varian minicomputers from the front panel as recently as 1974.

It's the 22nd century. Therefore the 20th century (including 1974) would
be last century, not so?  :)

I did use switches and such, but the first personal computer I built
had a hex keypad (6502 based) for entering the machine code. Trust
me, I don't *ever* want to do that again!

> We hated it at the time, and I can't imagine anyone working in machine code
> voluntarily.  It adds nothing to the development process at the expense of
> huge amounts of tedious work that the computer will always do better than a
> human can.

As an engineering major, we had a course in PDP-8 assembly code. Our
teacher stated that one of the main goals of the course was to convince
people that programming in assembly unnecessarily was *wrong*. High-level
languages are more efficient for the programmer, and for many machines
they handle the machine level as efficiently as a good programmer.

> There were no big gains to be had by converting to assembler.  All of the
> gains have been acheived by smarter design.  There is no doubt that there

Yes. And it is *much* easier to see the algorithms in a high-level language.
--
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2004\02\16@111129 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> > [PICLISTspamBeGonespam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
> >
> > Entering binary and hex with switches and pushbuttons, which
> > comparitively is how the OP say he programs, is so last century
>
> Surely not last century.  You make me feel old :-)  We had to cold start our
> Sperry Univac/Varian minicomputers from the front panel as recently as 1974.

It's the 22nd century. Therefore the 20th century (including 1974) would
be last century, not so?  :)

I did use switches and such, but the first personal computer I built
had a hex keypad (6502 based) for entering the machine code. Trust
me, I don't *ever* want to do that again!

> We hated it at the time, and I can't imagine anyone working in machine code
> voluntarily.  It adds nothing to the development process at the expense of
> huge amounts of tedious work that the computer will always do better than a
> human can.

As an engineering major, we had a course in PDP-8 assembly code. Our
teacher stated that one of the main goals of the course was to convince
people that programming in assembly unnecessarily was *wrong*. High-level
languages are more efficient for the programmer, and for many machines
they handle the machine level as efficiently as a good programmer.

> There were no big gains to be had by converting to assembler.  All of the
> gains have been acheived by smarter design.  There is no doubt that there

Yes. And it is *much* easier to see the algorithms in a high-level language.
--
D. Jay Newman           !
KILLspamjayspam.....sprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@111131 by Richard Graziano

picon face
Peter:

Thank you for your comment about over reacting.  If we have glass feelings,
we will always be fragile.  Of course, it is important to let someone know
that they have been offensive.  But I happen to know people who behave
offensively and are not even aware of it.  I think we could be a little
magnanimous.


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, Host" <spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamKILLspamPICLIST.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> Stay or leave as you wish. Don't call people names.
>
>
> ---
> James.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@111131 by Richard Graziano

picon face
Peter:

Thank you for your comment about over reacting.  If we have glass feelings,
we will always be fragile.  Of course, it is important to let someone know
that they have been offensive.  But I happen to know people who behave
offensively and are not even aware of it.  I think we could be a little
magnanimous.


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, Host" <KILLspamjamesnewtonspamspamBeGonePICLIST.COM>
To: <PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> Stay or leave as you wish. Don't call people names.
>
>
> ---
> James.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@112415 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> It's the 22nd century. Therefore the 20th century (including 1974) would
> be last century, not so?  :)

Oops. 21st Century, sorry.
--
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2004\02\16@112415 by D. Jay Newman

flavicon
face
> It's the 22nd century. Therefore the 20th century (including 1974) would
> be last century, not so?  :)

Oops. 21st Century, sorry.
--
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2004\02\16@112416 by Bruce Partridge

flavicon
face
> [@spam@PICLISTSTOPspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Larry Bradley
>
> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.
>
> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put
> down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.
>

I agree completely.  I am on several lists in various fields of interest.
None of the lists I stay on will tolerate people typing things "that would
get them a punch in the nose if they did it in person."

I don't understand why people say things in email with no consideration for
who the other person is or what they might bring to the table;  things that
they would never say in a face-to-face encounter with a total stranger.

Why should behaviour that would be patently rude in an office be ok on a
mailing list.

Bruce Partridge
http://www.rebreather.ca


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2004\02\16@112416 by Bruce Partridge

flavicon
face
> [PICLISTspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Larry Bradley
>
> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.
>
> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put
> down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.
>

I agree completely.  I am on several lists in various fields of interest.
None of the lists I stay on will tolerate people typing things "that would
get them a punch in the nose if they did it in person."

I don't understand why people say things in email with no consideration for
who the other person is or what they might bring to the table;  things that
they would never say in a face-to-face encounter with a total stranger.

Why should behaviour that would be patently rude in an office be ok on a
mailing list.

Bruce Partridge
http://www.rebreather.ca


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2004\02\16@114117 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin
> both from a technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

I agree on both points :)

> I ask James to please reconsider this hasty and unwarranted action.

The trouble is that I think James' action was neither hasty nor
unwarranted. Olin has been warned, and was probably outside what James
thinks propper conduct for the list. And he is list guard, if anyone
wants to take on that job I am sure he will hand it over with a big
smile (beware: there is much more to it than the occasional removal of a
user!).

So I am stuck with two conflicting beliefs: Olin should be on the list
because the is a big asset, and James' word should be law because he
spends the effort on this list so he should have the final say. :(

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@114117 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Anyway - just my 2 cents - it would be a shame to lose Olin
> both from a technical stance and also from an amusement point of view.

I agree on both points :)

> I ask James to please reconsider this hasty and unwarranted action.

The trouble is that I think James' action was neither hasty nor
unwarranted. Olin has been warned, and was probably outside what James
thinks propper conduct for the list. And he is list guard, if anyone
wants to take on that job I am sure he will hand it over with a big
smile (beware: there is much more to it than the occasional removal of a
user!).

So I am stuck with two conflicting beliefs: Olin should be on the list
because the is a big asset, and James' word should be law because he
spends the effort on this list so he should have the final say. :(

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@114118 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Olin,
>
> I don't think anyone specifically asked you for help.
>
> How about you do those things that you've got to do, refrain
> from posting,
> and let someone else handle the poster's question when you
> feel this way.
> Then you're not wasting everyone else's time.

For what it's worth: I am not sure I agree with Olins wording, but I
sure agree with the essence of what he wrote. IMHO making the OP aware
that he is on a crazy track is a service to OP.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@114118 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Olin,
>
> I don't think anyone specifically asked you for help.
>
> How about you do those things that you've got to do, refrain
> from posting,
> and let someone else handle the poster's question when you
> feel this way.
> Then you're not wasting everyone else's time.

For what it's worth: I am not sure I agree with Olins wording, but I
sure agree with the essence of what he wrote. IMHO making the OP aware
that he is on a crazy track is a service to OP.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@152747 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Larry Bradley wrote:

> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.
>
> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.
>
> At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
> was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
> I'm sure, Olin's first question.
>
> The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
> to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
> eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
> whether he will be insulted or laughed at.
>
> Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.
>

I have to admit that James is correct on this one.

Olin has a quick temper and a sharp tongue that causes people to be
putoff before his technical expertise becomes apparent. This formula is
not at all helpful to newbies. We don't help old-timers here (much), we
generally are here to help newbies.

Larry's right: the first requirement of a teacher is empathy.

--Bob

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2004\02\16@152747 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Larry Bradley wrote:

> There is no such things as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.
>
> One of things I have deplored over the many years I've been involved in
> various Internet fora is the tendency of a lot of people to put down others
> for asking "stupid" questions, in a manner that would get them a punch in
> the nose if they did it in person.
>
> At one time, we were ALL beginners. The very first question ANY of us asked
> was a stupid question from some other person's point of view. Including,
> I'm sure, Olin's first question.
>
> The things that distinguishes a good teacher from a poor one is the ability
> to adapt to the student - to encourage him, no put him down; to make him
> eager to ask more questions and learn more, not to quiver in fear wondering
> whether he will be insulted or laughed at.
>
> Olin  may be a technical genius, but he sure is a lousy teacher.
>

I have to admit that James is correct on this one.

Olin has a quick temper and a sharp tongue that causes people to be
putoff before his technical expertise becomes apparent. This formula is
not at all helpful to newbies. We don't help old-timers here (much), we
generally are here to help newbies.

Larry's right: the first requirement of a teacher is empathy.

--Bob

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2004\02\16@160611 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Larry's right: the first requirement of a teacher is empathy.

I am not so sure of that. (Today was my first day as part-time-teacher.
The 'kids' are using 16F877, c2c and two stepper motors. Three guesses
what they are making?)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@160611 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Larry's right: the first requirement of a teacher is empathy.

I am not so sure of that. (Today was my first day as part-time-teacher.
The 'kids' are using 16F877, c2c and two stepper motors. Three guesses
what they are making?)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\02\16@172224 by Jinx

face picon face
> We must have the right to express ourselves

And sometimes expressing yourself has consequences

> we live in a democracy, don't we ?

No. Piclist is not a democracy. It's a collection of people with
moderators. Who try to keep thing moderate. Have you ever
tried a group that doesn't have a good moderator ? Not a
pretty sight. Insults, spam, OT, flames, factions........

> Outlook can easily filter postings also, if you know that
> you are the sensitive type...

Exactly what could you use as a filter ? There are so many
ways of being insulting that use legitimate words. There have
been posters in the past I just didn't like and their mails would
go in the bin unread. I didn't care to take the time to search
their mails beforehand to find out if they had anything positive
or even "normal" to say

> If you go to the bookstore, you don't buy books you don't like !

Yes, that's very true. I use that argument with people who get
precious about not having a TV

> Don't read postings you know you'll don't like !

Unfortunately you have to read some of the post to find out
what the tone is. And it's too late then. Personally I don't like
having my day or mood disrupted by an over-the-top mail,
particularly if it was either unnecessary or could have been
done in a politer way

> Why waste bandwith with this ?

Well, for one thing it shows people how the list works. However,
it does seem that much of the noise that Olin hated in other tags
he actually generates under the [PIC:] tag. Rather ironic

> My personal opinion is that ANY contribution to the list is useful

Disagree with "ANY"

I can see someone shot on the news and don't get half as disturbed
as seeing someone get the same by email. There's something about
seeing it there in black and white. I'm sure if you were ever on the
receiving end of such a mail you would feel quite differently.

I've seen Olin in a minority of one calling technical points "rediculous"
(sic) and then having to backtrack. "Ridiculous" is an offensive way of
disagreeing. Demeaning people is not the way to keep members and
encourage them to ask questions. It's the simple human reaction of
avoidance. That said, there are some who really could do a little
homework, but they may need to be told to do that

> if I don't like a posting, I delete it and forget it. That's all ! Simple
> isn't it ?

Judging by all the heat, apparently not

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2004\02\16@172224 by Jinx

face picon face
> We must have the right to express ourselves

And sometimes expressing yourself has consequences

> we live in a democracy, don't we ?

No. Piclist is not a democracy. It's a collection of people with
moderators. Who try to keep thing moderate. Have you ever
tried a group that doesn't have a good moderator ? Not a
pretty sight. Insults, spam, OT, flames, factions........

> Outlook can easily filter postings also, if you know that
> you are the sensitive type...

Exactly what could you use as a filter ? There are so many
ways of being insulting that use legitimate words. There have
been posters in the past I just didn't like and their mails would
go in the bin unread. I didn't care to take the time to search
their mails beforehand to find out if they had anything positive
or even "normal" to say

> If you go to the bookstore, you don't buy books you don't like !

Yes, that's very true. I use that argument with people who get
precious about not having a TV

> Don't read postings you know you'll don't like !

Unfortunately you have to read some of the post to find out
what the tone is. And it's too late then. Personally I don't like
having my day or mood disrupted by an over-the-top mail,
particularly if it was either unnecessary or could have been
done in a politer way

> Why waste bandwith with this ?

Well, for one thing it shows people how the list works. However,
it does seem that much of the noise that Olin hated in other tags
he actually generates under the [PIC:] tag. Rather ironic

> My personal opinion is that ANY contribution to the list is useful

Disagree with "ANY"

I can see someone shot on the news and don't get half as disturbed
as seeing someone get the same by email. There's something about
seeing it there in black and white. I'm sure if you were ever on the
receiving end of such a mail you would feel quite differently.

I've seen Olin in a minority of one calling technical points "rediculous"
(sic) and then having to backtrack. "Ridiculous" is an offensive way of
disagreeing. Demeaning people is not the way to keep members and
encourage them to ask questions. It's the simple human reaction of
avoidance. That said, there are some who really could do a little
homework, but they may need to be told to do that

> if I don't like a posting, I delete it and forget it. That's all ! Simple
> isn't it ?

Judging by all the heat, apparently not

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2004\02\16@192229 by Jinx

face picon face
> My code and configuration was ok, I finally tracked down the
> problem thanks to some luck. It was a false contact in the CLKI pin

How did the CLKI pin get involved ?

And didn't the D00F jump over the start of port initialisation ?

Scratches head

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2004\02\16@192229 by Jinx

face picon face
> My code and configuration was ok, I finally tracked down the
> problem thanks to some luck. It was a false contact in the CLKI pin

How did the CLKI pin get involved ?

And didn't the D00F jump over the start of port initialisation ?

Scratches head

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2004\02\18@085321 by Alessandro Queri

flavicon
face
I agree. I spend few bytes to give you my idea on it. I saw Olin was out,
and I was not surprised: he does answer a bad way. He did to me too. The
OP put a bad question on the other hand, maybe because he is not familiar
to microchip world. That's not a good reason to unpolitely point it out. I
mean, I wouldn't spend a single word on it if I have to offend people also
if <beg> I do think it was an idiot question. I simply ignore. I sometimes
put idiot or incomplete questions too, and people politely ignores.
Everybody knows Olin has great technical skills AND a really bad mood:
this is not the price to pay for a good advice. Olin must understand. But,
I'm afraid he will not. I'm sure he will join the list again giving good
advices and bad times to people asking "bad questions". ;-)

Ale


On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, James Newton, Host wrote:

> Stay or leave as you wish. Don't call people names.
>
>
> ---
> James.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

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