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'[PIC]: PIC16F84A vs. PIC16F84 programming issues'
2000\10\02@104301 by Dan Michaels

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Igor wrote:

>Gents,
>I've purchased the pic16f84A (A is important!) and I've spent
>couple of hours to get programmed the chip (I have dtait
>lpt programmer and no problems with lot of pic16f84, sw I use is
>wpicprog32 from nigel goodwin v 1.2 and 1.22).
>
>The only way I discovered is to catch the chip with my fingers
>during programming and it works!! It seems the chip has
>other dynamic or static (1,0 levels or what) parameters, even I've
>read the migration docs at microchip site I do not know
>what is the trick?? Any suggestions??
>(I've changed the pin 12,13 caps from 0 to 1nf - no help).


Hello Igor,

I am no expert on the details of PIC programming, but I checked
the device include file that comes with my EPIC programmer, and
it shows exactly the same configuration word for 'C84, 'F84, and
'F84A, so "parameters" is probably not your problem. From .INC
files:

                                       ; *** DEVICE Device Definitions
PIC16F83        equ     50010400h       ; 14-Bit, 512 Code, 64 EE, ID = 0
PIC16F84        equ     50020401h       ; 14-Bit,  1K Code, 64 EE, ID = 1
PIC16F84A       equ     50020401h       ; 14-Bit,  1K Code, 64 EE, ID = 1

                                       ; *** DEVICE Device Definitions
PIC16C84        equ     50020401h       ; 14-Bit, 1K Code, 64 EE, ID = 1


regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.users.uswest.net/~oricom
===================================

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2000\10\02@210609 by Jim Robertson

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At 10:43 AM 02/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Igor wrote:
>
>>Gents,

Snipped....

{Quote hidden}

Actually Dan,

The config word is different between the 16C84 and the others. The above
information does not include any config word information that I can see.
Like any good programmer software the EPIC is relying on the correct
config values being provided via the HEX file and ultimately via the
assembler/compiler. It is in these software tools that differences in the
config word should, and are defined.

-Jim



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Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: newfoundspamKILLspampipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.

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2000\10\02@235117 by Dan Michaels

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Jim Robertson wrote:
>At 10:43 AM 02/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>Igor wrote:
>>I've purchased the pic16f84A (A is important!) and I've spent
>>couple of hours to get programmed the chip (I have dtait
>>lpt programmer and no problems with lot of pic16f84, sw I use is
>>wpicprog32 from nigel goodwin v 1.2 and 1.22).
...........
{Quote hidden}

Ooops, you are correct, Jim. 'C84 is different. However, it does
look like the 'F84 and 'F84A have the same config word, so Igor should
not have to change parameters between the two. Correct? And his problem
is probably somewhere else.

- danM

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2000\10\03@005859 by Jim Robertson

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At 11:51 PM 02/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes and yes. I think Igor has a problem in the electrical side, maybe
the PSU slew rate is too high or it is overshooting causing latch-up.

-Jim

>
>- danM
>
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Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: @spam@newfoundKILLspamspampipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.

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2000\10\04@040149 by Snail Instruments

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>I've purchased the pic16f84A (A is important!) and I've spent
>couple of hours to get programmed the chip (I have dtait
>lpt programmer and no problems with lot of pic16f84, sw I use is
>wpicprog32 from nigel goodwin v 1.2 and 1.22).

I remember I had once similar problem with my programmer - it couldn't
program 16F84 newer then certain date, but programmed older batches without
problems. It turned out, that the programing time was set to 6ms, which was
sufficient for the 'good old' chips, but not enough for the newer ones.
Just a thought...

>The only way I discovered is to catch the chip with my fingers
>during programming and it works!!

Well, if you had a friend at surgery (or pathology) department, you could
get a few spare fingers and attach them to the ZIF socket lever...

Sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Josef

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2000\10\08@144502 by i_mokos

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----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Robertson <RemoveMEnewfoundTakeThisOuTspamPIPELINE.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC16F84A vs. PIC16F84 programming issues


{Quote hidden}

the
{Quote hidden}

Jim, Dan,
I've enhanced the programmer with 16f877 option  and it runs
(with Nigel Goodwin's picpro877) well. So the only 16f84A
have caused problems. As I did an exercise with bending the pins
of the chip , it seems for me there is something tricky with voltage
levels or capacitance...
Igor

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2000\10\08@165505 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <010f01c03158$2d010ae0$3f661cc3@computel>, i_mokos
<mokosEraseMEspam.....COMPUTEL.SK> writes
>I've enhanced the programmer with 16f877 option  and it runs
>(with Nigel Goodwin's picpro877) well. So the only 16f84A
>have caused problems. As I did an exercise with bending the pins
>of the chip , it seems for me there is something tricky with voltage
>levels or capacitance...

It's nice to know my software works. I've not had a single comment about
it yet, perhaps that's a good sign :-). How are you finding it?.
--

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2000\10\08@170123 by Dan Michaels

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Nigel Goodwin wrote:
>In message <010f01c03158$2d010ae0$3f661cc3@computel>, i_mokos
><RemoveMEmokosspam_OUTspamKILLspamCOMPUTEL.SK> writes
>>I've enhanced the programmer with 16f877 option  and it runs
>>(with Nigel Goodwin's picpro877) well. So the only 16f84A
>>have caused problems. As I did an exercise with bending the pins
>>of the chip , it seems for me there is something tricky with voltage
>>levels or capacitance...
>
>It's nice to know my software works. I've not had a single comment about
>it yet, perhaps that's a good sign :-). How are you finding it?.
>--
>

Nigel, I presume you have tried your programmer with '84A chips.
Ever see a problem like Igor mentions? Could there be a left-out
part?

- danM

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2000\10\09@021041 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <EraseME1.5.4.16.20001008150148.108f5dc6spamspamspamBeGonepop.dnvr.uswest.net>, Dan
Michaels <RemoveMEoricomKILLspamspamUSWEST.NET> writes
>Nigel Goodwin wrote:
>>In message <010f01c03158$2d010ae0$3f661cc3@computel>, i_mokos
>><mokosSTOPspamspamspam_OUTCOMPUTEL.SK> writes
>>>I've enhanced the programmer with 16f877 option  and it runs
>>>(with Nigel Goodwin's picpro877) well. So the only 16f84A
>>>have caused problems. As I did an exercise with bending the pins
>>>of the chip , it seems for me there is something tricky with voltage
>>>levels or capacitance...
>>
>>It's nice to know my software works. I've not had a single comment about
>>it yet, perhaps that's a good sign :-). How are you finding it?.
>>--
>>
>
>Nigel, I presume you have tried your programmer with '84A chips.
>Ever see a problem like Igor mentions? Could there be a left-out
>part?

I've never seen an 84A :-(.
--

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2000\10\13@065711 by Graeme Odgers

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Hello Nigel and Dan,

Dan I agree with you, I've been using C'84 chips with the Dontronics parallel
programmer for a couple of years and have had no problems with Nigel's
software.

This year we have been using the 20MHz F84A's - and have they been a pain.
Some chips program just as easy as the C84's, but the majority do not!!

To get them to program I have placed a small 330pF capacitor on the RB6 and
RB7 to ground.  This has worked with some success for most chips, but there
are a few stubborn chips that do not program very reliably.

Nigel, is there a way to change the programming time (burn period) in your
software?


Dan Michaels wrote:

> Nigel Goodwin wrote:
> >In message <010f01c03158$2d010ae0$3f661cc3@computel>, i_mokos
> ><KILLspammokosspamBeGonespamCOMPUTEL.SK> writes
> >>I've enhanced the programmer with 16f877 option  and it runs
> >>(with Nigel Goodwin's picpro877) well. So the only 16f84A
> >>have caused problems. As I did an exercise with bending the pins
> >>of the chip , it seems for me there is something tricky with voltage
> >>levels or capacitance...

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2000\10\13@091818 by staff

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Graeme Odgers wrote:
>
> Hello Nigel and Dan,
>
> Dan I agree with you, I've been using C'84 chips with the Dontronics parallel
> programmer for a couple of years and have had no problems with Nigel's
> software.
>
> This year we have been using the 20MHz F84A's - and have they been a pain.
> Some chips program just as easy as the C84's, but the majority do not!!
>
> To get them to program I have placed a small 330pF capacitor on the RB6 and
> RB7 to ground.  This has worked with some success for most chips, but there
> are a few stubborn chips that do not program very reliably.
>
> Nigel, is there a way to change the programming time (burn period) in your
> software?
>

We program the 16F84 and 16F84A using ICSP and picstart plus.
Have had no problems so far (many chips).
-Roman

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2000\10\13@124104 by Dan Michaels

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Graeme Odgers wrote:
>Hello Nigel and Dan,
>
>Dan I agree with you, I've been using C'84 chips with the Dontronics parallel
>programmer for a couple of years and have had no problems with Nigel's
>software.
>
>This year we have been using the 20MHz F84A's - and have they been a pain.
>Some chips program just as easy as the C84's, but the majority do not!!
>
>To get them to program I have placed a small 330pF capacitor on the RB6 and
>RB7 to ground.  This has worked with some success for most chips, but there
>are a few stubborn chips that do not program very reliably.
>
>Nigel, is there a way to change the programming time (burn period) in your
>software?
>


Hi Graeme,

Great - some good experience with this problem, and a fix thrown
in to boot. I wonder if the problem is risetime or ringing on the
RB6 and RB7 datalines? What do the signals look like before and after
using the 330pF caps? I also wonder if ground routing might not be
an issue here.

I have an EPIC programmer and have had no problems programming
'C84s, 'F84s, or the newer '87x chips.

But I have a similar problem with driving an A/D with 6Mhz
SPI. Still don't have a perfect handle on it, since the problem
disappears when I attach the scope probe. Tried RC filters
in the lines --> helps but not on every board. Tried rearranging
gnds --> no help. Touching with finger fixes the problem,
regardless of RC filters --> ????????. Ended up that using a
4.7K resistor to gnd on certain pins fixed the problem -->
termination issue, I guess ????. Still scratching.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.users.uswest.net/~oricom
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2000\10\13@162234 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <.....39E6E8B7.D5FFA42Aspam_OUTspamtriode.net.au>, Graeme Odgers
<TakeThisOuTgraemeo.....spamTakeThisOuTTRIODE.NET.AU> writes
>Hello Nigel and Dan,
>
>Dan I agree with you, I've been using C'84 chips with the Dontronics parallel
>programmer for a couple of years and have had no problems with Nigel's
>software.
>
>This year we have been using the 20MHz F84A's - and have they been a pain.
>Some chips program just as easy as the C84's, but the majority do not!!
>
>To get them to program I have placed a small 330pF capacitor on the RB6 and
>RB7 to ground.  This has worked with some success for most chips, but there
>are a few stubborn chips that do not program very reliably.
>
>Nigel, is there a way to change the programming time (burn period) in your
>software?

The programming time can be altered from the hardware screen, it
defaults to 10mS, perhaps it's some of the other timings that need
alteration (such as the time between Vpp and VDD) - these are hard coded
in the program (at the moment!). Someone is sending me a 16F84A to try,
if you want to send me a really stubborn one I could try that?.
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