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'[PIC]: PIC on industrial environment resets/locks'
2002\09\02@134824 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello,

   I've done an equipment that works on an industrial environment and it's
giving me big headaches.

   This equipment is an oiler for loom (textile making) machines. It's
powered from the machine's 24V transformer and have a one-diode/capacitor
rectifier. From the rectifier a MOSFET is used to switch a solenoid that
pumps the oil to the loom.

   An switched voltage regulator (LM78S40) drops the voltage to 9V to power
a little DC motor. Then, a linear voltage regulator (7805) drops the voltage
to 5V to power the PIC.

   It's working very well on the lab, but on the client machines it resets
sometimes when the large loom's motor (3-phase, 220V/380V, 6-10HP)
starts/stops. The whole loom is grounded to the same common point at the
transformer's secondary and my equipment is on a metal case attached to the
loom with good contact.

   I was using just a diode from VCC to MCLR on the PIC (a PIC16F877). Now
I'm using just a 4K7 resistor in place of the diode. Things seens to be
better now, but the PIC still reset sometimes.

   Also, sometimes the PIC seens to locks. It's a very bad situation
because it can happen when the MOSFET is conducting and the solenoid heats
to the melting point of the coil wire.

   Someone with experiences in using PICs on industrial environment can
please help me?

   Thank you VERY much,

   Brusque

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2002\09\02@140825 by Marcelo Y.

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Ih, cansei de ver isto acontecer aos aparelhos. Nco existe uma solugco znica
para todos os casos. Cada caso tem que ser analisado e encontrado uma
maneira de se solucionar. Algumas dicas:
1. Coloque um filtro na entrada do seu circuito. Duplo PI i o ideal.
2. Coloque capacitores 100kpF no pi do regulador. Na entrada para terra e na
samda para terra.
3. Coloque um capacitor de 100kpF na alimentagco do PIC, de preferjncia no
pi dele.
4. Tente fazer uma rotina de recuperagco de erro no software para que ele
nco fique tco sensmvel. @s vezes ele reseta mas nco perde os dados, entco
ele pode voltar ao ponto do software sem problemas.
5. Antes do regulador 7805, verifique se ha um bom capacitor eletrolmtico
para diminuir o ripple que vem do regulador chaveado. Ele nco serve para
rumdos, mas evita que aparega uma ondulagco na alimentagco que possa causar
um Low Voltage Reset.

Marcelo Y.

{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\02@142333 by Peter L. Peres

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On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

>    I was using just a diode from VCC to MCLR on the PIC (a PIC16F877). Now
>I'm using just a 4K7 resistor in place of the diode. Things seens to be
>better now, but the PIC still reset sometimes.

Connect MCLR directly to Vcc (use a jumper if you use ICSP) and put a 5V6
zener across Vdd and Vcc directly at the chip. Put series resistors on ALL
wires entering and leaving the board if they haven't already.

>    Also, sometimes the PIC seens to locks. It's a very bad situation
>because it can happen when the MOSFET is conducting and the solenoid heats
>to the melting point of the coil wire.

Use the watchdog and put a self resetting thermal fuse in the circuit
(near the solenoid).

The real solution would be to rethink your circuit with ground current
pulses (conducted noise) in mind. F.ex. grounding the circuit to the box
is not such a good idea imho. The loom motor and maybe the solenoid and
the small motor produce spikes in the VHF and UHF range and your circuit
layout and concept must take this into account. They should also be
suppressed properly (not just with a reverse diode).

Industrial electronics is seldom designed like this but it is often
over-engineered to the point where these things don't matter anymore at
least during the warranty period (or so the salespeople hope).

Peter

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2002\09\02@145932 by Mike Singer

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Without translation to English this should be considered
as spam, in my opinion.

Mike.



Marcelo Y. Wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\02@151631 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Peter,

> Connect MCLR directly to Vcc (use a jumper if you use ICSP) and put a 5V6
> zener across Vdd and Vcc directly at the chip. Put series resistors on ALL
> wires entering and leaving the board if they haven't already.

   I'll try your MCLR and zener suggestions.

   I already have resistors on the two wires that are connected to external
circuits. I just can't put resistors on the wires that go to the solenoid
and to the little motor.

> >    Also, sometimes the PIC seens to locks. It's a very bad situation
> >because it can happen when the MOSFET is conducting and the solenoid
heats
> >to the melting point of the coil wire.
>
> Use the watchdog and put a self resetting thermal fuse in the circuit
> (near the solenoid).

   Yes, I was thinking about the watchdog. A watchdog reset wouldn't clear
the RAM, so maybe it could be arranged to the software return to work where
it broke.

   What is a "self resetting thermal fuse"? It's the same thing as a
thermostat?

> The real solution would be to rethink your circuit with ground current
> pulses (conducted noise) in mind. F.ex. grounding the circuit to the box
> is not such a good idea imho. The loom motor and maybe the solenoid and
> the small motor produce spikes in the VHF and UHF range and your circuit
> layout and concept must take this into account. They should also be
> suppressed properly (not just with a reverse diode).

   I was thinking about an inductor between the DGND (digital) and
PGND(power). Maybe the 100uH 2A (IIRC) inductors I have here could be used
for this.

> Industrial electronics is seldom designed like this but it is often
> over-engineered to the point where these things don't matter anymore at
> least during the warranty period (or so the salespeople hope).

   I'm need to make this circuit the most safe possible because a loom is a
very expensive machine and lack of lubrification can be very costly.

   Thank you very much,

   Brusque

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2002\09\02@170305 by Brent Brown

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I'm sure you know that this can be a very tricky problem. Lots of
things mentioned so far, I'll try and add a few more as I have had
similar experience.

- Check your board layout. Go for wide traces where it counts to
reduce inductance, such as power supply, reset and oscillator traces.
Put oscillator very close to the micro, do not share it's GND
connection. Look at current paths and try not to share power GND
connections with signal GND as much as possible.

- Keep input impedances low as possible, and low pass filter as much
as possible.

- Once everything else is up to scratch increase the isolation from
your power supply. This is not a golden rule but I always think most
noise gets in that way. My favourite trick is to add a resistor in
series with the input of the 7805, say 47 ohms, plus 100uF caps on
the input and output of the regulator (as well as the mandatory 0.1uF
ceramic/monolithic caps). Check surrent requirements vs voltage drop
but I expect you will have plenty of headroom.

- Find a means of simulating the fault condition in the lab. This
will give enable you to test that you have actually improved your
circuit, and will tell you what the weak point in your design is. I
once did this by winding a coil of wire near the circuit under test,
adding a transformer primary in series to boost the inductance and
flashing the leads across a battery untill I could the reliably make
the circuit glitch at a given distance.

- Watchdog and brownout detect are good to make the system return to
a safe state when it does fail.

Hope some of these ideas help.

On 2 Sep 2002 at 14:50, Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\03@034039 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I already have resistors on the two wires that are connected to external
>circuits. I just can't put resistors on the wires that go to the solenoid
>and to the little motor.

How long a time period do you drive the solenoid, and how often?

You may be able to slow down any pulse coming back through the solenoid
drive by using an RC combination on the outgoing gate drive to nobble any
pulse coming back this way. You may need to lengthen the drive pulse to take
account of this RC time constant though.

>What is a "self resetting thermal fuse"? It's the same thing as a
>thermostat?

No, look for a device known as a "Polyfuse". They are available from RS
Components and I believe Farnell also stock them.

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2002\09\03@034701 by Alan B. Pearce

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>- Find a means of simulating the fault condition in the lab. This
>will give enable you to test that you have actually improved your
>circuit, and will tell you what the weak point in your design is. I
>once did this by winding a coil of wire near the circuit under test,
>adding a transformer primary in series to boost the inductance and
>flashing the leads across a battery untill I could the reliably make
>the circuit glitch at a given distance.

I have seen a small light box containing a fluorescent lamp with a normal
inductive ballast used for this purpose. It was very effective in producing
spikes on the mains supply when rapidly switched off and on.

Further to my previous mail, I would be looking at having a reasonably large
capacitor at each stage down the power supply chain that you mention,
possibly with diodes so if the input side really does die with a big
negative spike then the capacitor cannot discharge back into the source.
While you are at it do remember to put a reverse diode across the 7805
input/output to protect it. They go very belly up if there is no voltage on
the input, but a big capacitor still charged on the output.

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2002\09\03@041907 by Nate Duehr

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Perhaps this should move to [EE]...?

On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 01:38, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> >What is a "self resetting thermal fuse"? It's the same thing as a
> >thermostat?
>
> No, look for a device known as a "Polyfuse". They are available from RS
> Components and I believe Farnell also stock them.

Bourns (and a bunch of other folk) make them in all sorts of packages
and ratings.

They're interesting little devices.  Basically as they pass current,
they heat up.  If they heat enough, they stop passing current at a
"cutoff" point and only a slight amount of current "leaks" through them,
usually enough to keep them at the temperature that triggered them.

(I'm assuming they could oscillate on and off in a cold environment, but
haven't tested that with any of them.)

Then when the overload condition ends, they cool off and conduct again.
The theory behind them is that they're a plastic-carbon polymer that
starts off with the carbon in crystalline formations that pass current.

If they heat up, the plastic and carbon expand until the carbon
crystalline structures "pop" apart and very little current can pass.

When they cool back down the crystalline structure re-forms, and they
pass current again.

All in very small packages (depending on heat-dissipation
needs/requirements for the current trip-point).  I recently saw one set
up in a neat fashion to protect a small surface-mount board that
interfaced to a PC power supply and then out other "real world" stuff.

Of course, I think there was a design flaw in it (the PC power supply
would crowbar before the device would trip... methinks... heh heh), but
the idea was sound if done right...

Also, they do tend to trigger at a slightly lower current once they've
been tripped the first time, but if the correctly rated component is
chosen, they will continue to protect the circuit at that lower
trip-point from whatever current draw you're trying to protect against.

Kinda neat for protection of circuit branches in circuits where the
other branches really need to stay running if the outside world
interfacing stuff is shorted, etc... and you don't have to go rummaging
for a fuse every time that branch's protection device (fuse) pops.

I hear they're popular in automotive applications nowadays, but haven't
seen evidence of that.  Stuff like the overload you get when the window
motors hit bottom and the person is still mashing down on the switch...
the resettable fuse stops passing current, the circuit cools down, and
the fuse resets... (My Jeep/Chrysler has an obvious "click" like a relay
opening if I do this... so I don't think they're using them... but
anyway... haven't tried to look.)

Nate

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2002\09\03@053039 by Roman Black

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Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

> > >    Also, sometimes the PIC seens to locks. It's a very bad situation
> > >because it can happen when the MOSFET is conducting and the solenoid
> heats
> > >to the melting point of the coil wire.
> >
> > Use the watchdog and put a self resetting thermal fuse in the circuit
> > (near the solenoid).
>     This equipment is an oiler for loom (textile making) machines. It's
> powered from the machine's 24V transformer and have a one-diode/capacitor
> rectifier. From the rectifier a MOSFET is used to switch a solenoid that
> pumps the oil to the loom.


Hi Edson, have you tried fixing the cause rather
than the symptoms? ie, check what is happening at
the solenoid itself?

I drive solenoids from a series resistor and large
capacitor, so the initial solenoid current comes from
the cap and the resistor supplies holding current.
It generally halves the holding current, and decreases
solenoid heating by 4x. It really decreases surge
curent drawn from the PSU at turn on. Some solenoids
will still hold well even with one third the pull-in
current.

One added benefit is that the solenoid has only half
the energy in it at the point where it turns off,
and there is a large resistor and cap between this
energy and the PSU when it turns off. With the right
diode across the solenoid this really reduces energy
spikes on the PSU.

Another point that is often missed is diode speed.
If you use a slow diode like 1N4007 etc, and your
mosfet turns off nice and quick there may be time
for the solenoid back-emf to go through the roof
before the diode turns on properly. With larger
solenoids you may need a FAST diode or may be
cheaper to use a RC series snubber across the
slow diode. :o)
-Roman

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2002\09\03@084722 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> It generally halves the holding current, and decreases
> solenoid heating by 4x. ...
>
> One added benefit is that the solenoid has only half
> the energy in it at the point where it turns off,

1/4 actually.  E = I**2 * L / 2.


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2002\09\03@120407 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Roman,

> I drive solenoids from a series resistor and large
> capacitor, so the initial solenoid current comes from
> the cap and the resistor supplies holding current.
> It generally halves the holding current, and decreases
> solenoid heating by 4x. It really decreases surge
> curent drawn from the PSU at turn on. Some solenoids
> will still hold well even with one third the pull-in
> current.

   it's a very interesting idea. I can't implement this on the actual PCB
but will put a circuit like this on the next release. I understand that this
RC would be before the switching MOSFET, so I'll have to think very well how
to put it on the GND side of the circuit.

   The solenoid is on for a very brief time (20ms), but it can be pulsed 10
times a second. It have a peak current of about 2A and I'll have to
calculate the resistor/capacitor values correctly so they could full charge
in 80ms.

> Another point that is often missed is diode speed.
> If you use a slow diode like 1N4007 etc, and your
> mosfet turns off nice and quick there may be time
> for the solenoid back-emf to go through the roof
> before the diode turns on properly. With larger
> solenoids you may need a FAST diode or may be
> cheaper to use a RC series snubber across the
> slow diode. :o)

   I could try to put a 1N5819 but it's rated only 40V, the solenoid is 24V
and reverse voltage spikes could be too higher for the diode.  I'll have to
find an SB1100 (100V) or equivalent.

   Thank you,

   Brusque

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2002\09\03@121216 by rusque (Listas)

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Me again, :)

   I was complicating the thing. I think I could simply make it:

                +24V-----R--+-------------------+------,
                            |                   |      |
                            C                   K     COIL
                            |                   A      |
                           GND                  |      |
                                                +------'
                                                |
                                                D
                                     uC-+-180R--G
                                        |       S
                                       4K7      |
                                        |       |
                                       GND     GND

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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2002\09\03@143102 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Peter et all,

> >    I was using just a diode from VCC to MCLR on the PIC (a PIC16F877).
Now
> >I'm using just a 4K7 resistor in place of the diode. Things seens to be
> >better now, but the PIC still reset sometimes.
>
> Connect MCLR directly to Vcc (use a jumper if you use ICSP) and put a 5V6
> zener across Vdd and Vcc directly at the chip. Put series resistors on ALL
> wires entering and leaving the board if they haven't already.

   I've made some tests and found some interesting things. I was using a
fluorescent lamp/ballast to create EMI discharges and emulate the client
situation. As you can guess there was a lot of resets and lockups.

   It seens the EMI is being picked by the ICSP connector and ESD was
building up on the MCLR pin. As there's no path to GND or to VDD (because
there's only a diode from VDD to MCLR) this probably put the PIC on
programming mode and forced a reset or something like that.

   Removing the ICSP connector (still with the diode) there was
substantially less resets/lockups.

   Replacing the diode for a wire (just short or jumper) there was never a
reset.

   I've tried using a 10K resistor in place of the jumper and with ICSP
connector. I can have no lockups. It seens in the client there was still
some resets/lockups even with a 4K7 resistor between VDD and MCLR.

   Well, that was one problem...

   The other problem was the stupid "floating input pin" thing. I foresee a
serial comm on the board and programmed the RC6 and RC7 pins as inputs, but
haven't enabled USART nor put the buffer/etc on the board... argh. Now I've
placed two 10K resistors to shut those pins to GND.

   I will put these "upgraded" boards on the client devices and I'll see if
this works. In the meanwhile I'll implement some other things like
watchdog/etc on the software. In the next board I'll use the Roman idea of
the RC current limiting on the solenoid.

   Thank you all for your input,

   Brusque

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2002\09\03@224927 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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>  Without translation to English this should be considered
> as spam, in my opinion.

I don't think so. It was obvious he was answering the question. Both
the person who posted the question and the person who replied in
Espanol are from Brazil.

The internet is international. If someone could answer a question for
me, but only in their native tongue,  I would not want them to hold
back.

Sean

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2002\09\04@022632 by Mike Singer

picon face
Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote:
> >  Without translation to English this should be considered
> > as spam, in my opinion.
>
> I don't think so. It was obvious he was answering the question. Both
> the person who posted the question and the person who replied in
> Espanol are from Brazil.
>
> The internet is international. If someone could answer a question
> for me, but only in their native tongue,  I would not want them
> to hold back.


Sean,
You proved to be a smart businessman. Do you really want
for your money something useless to you? How about those
List members, who think of unsubscribing for they can't
afford traffic. " The internet is international", so it
should be affordable not only for international businessmen,
but also for rather poor folks from various countries.

Mike.
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    I'm sorry for it.(Boys, haven't I said Sean is a
    smart guy?:-)

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2002\09\04@142902 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

>    I already have resistors on the two wires that are connected to external
>circuits. I just can't put resistors on the wires that go to the solenoid
>and to the little motor.

Yes you can. Use 1-2ohms. Wirewound is good here. It may help or not.

{Quote hidden}

A watchdog reset will be detected as such by your software and clear the
ram or not as you need.

>    What is a "self resetting thermal fuse"? It's the same thing as a
>thermostat?

Almost. A thermostat with a lot of hysteresis and several minutes of off
time. The most popular kind is the bimetal one, used in battery packs. The
next most popular is the polyfuse which isn't strictly a thermal fuse but
in the end does the same thing.

{Quote hidden}

You can try. You are trying to save a design. Try everything you can
afford.

Peter

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2002\09\04@223755 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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Mike,

I am sorry, but I am really struggling to understand your post.

>  You proved to be a smart businessman. Do you really want
> for your money something useless to you?

Do you mean a picture of a ship or a posting in Portugese :-) Yesterday
I mistakenly said Spanish, but I assume that since both parties are
from Brazil it must be Portugese.

I get about 200 spams a day Mike. I'm just training my new Mail client
to deal with them. One text message in 200 that a full of HTML and
pictures is nothing.

>  How about those
> List members, who think of unsubscribing for they can't
> afford traffic. "

It's only text (normally). It does not chew up a lot of bandwidth. As I
said, the guy was in Brazil, and he got a reply from a guy in Brazil in
his native tongue. I do not have a problem with that, and it seems like
nobody else on the list did either.


> The internet is international", so it
> should be affordable not only for international businessmen,
> but also for rather poor folks from various countries.

How much do you think that message cost you?

Regards,

Sean

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2002\09\05@113453 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Yep, that's my way to drive a larger solenoid. I usually
choose R to give about 40% current, as many solenoids
/relays etc drop-out as current drops below 25% or so.
Then I find the minimum value of C that gives reliable
pull-in, and double it. :o)

Also don't forget the RC series snubber across the
solenoid coil to kill fast spikes caused by slow diode
on the solenoid (or just use a fast diode).
-Roman



Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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