Post by thread:[PIC]: PIC as USB Master?

I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or Cypress if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer project with no PC involved. I can find very little info on how the write code for the USB master. Minimal mouse function and usual mouse data rates are fine. Can anyone help? Douglas Butler Senior Engineer Imetrix Inc. 1235 Route 28A P.O. Box 152 Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 tel. (508) 564-6460 Fax (508) 564-6860 spam_OUTdbutlerTakeThisOuTimetrix.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

To make it clear, here is an estimated relative level of effort for the three mouse types: serial - 1 unit PS/2 - 5 units USB - 200+ units I am _not_ kidding here! Bob Ammerman RAm Systems (contract development of high performance, high function, low-level software) > You don't want to do this! > > Use serial (easiest) or PS/2 (if you gotta) mice instead. > > Bob Ammerman > RAm Systems > (contract development of high performance, high function, low-level > software) > > {Original Message removed}

> serial - 1 unit > PS/2 - 5 units > USB - 200+ units All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this. But the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a tracking concrete. I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip. Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug) Senior Engineer Imetrix Inc. 1235 Route 28A P.O. Box 152 Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 tel. (508) 564-6460 Fax (508) 564-6860 dbutlerKILLspamimetrix.com > {Original Message removed}

I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB master. I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and its developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have. My guess is that it require a lot off code and memory (That is not a problem with todays PC). As Linux is open source you might take a look on how its done in Linux. My guess is that you will see a lot of code and realise that that will never fit a PICmicro. USB is a standard and to conform to that standard requires that you have the full support and do not strip it. If you could strip it then it would not be USB. Niklas Wennerstrand -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [.....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU] För Douglas Butler Skickat: den 14 juni 2001 15:13 Till: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU Ämne: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master? I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or Cypress if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer project with no PC involved. I can find very little info on how the write code for the USB master. Minimal mouse function and usual mouse data rates are fine. Can anyone help? Douglas Butler Senior Engineer Imetrix Inc. 1235 Route 28A P.O. Box 152 Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 tel. (508) 564-6460 Fax (508) 564-6860 dbutlerspam_OUTimetrix.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master. It only has to handle one specific type of mouse. I was thinking I could skip all of the enumeration and identification stuff. If anything other than that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and halt. Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug) Senior Engineer Imetrix Inc. 1235 Route 28A P.O. Box 152 Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 tel. (508) 564-6460 Fax (508) 564-6860 RemoveMEdbutlerTakeThisOuTimetrix.com > {Original Message removed}

----- Original Message ----- From: Niklas Wennerstrand <spamBeGoneniklas.wennerstrandspamBeGoneTELIA.COM> > I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB > master. > I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and its > developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support > under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have. As I understand it, the PPC linux tree had USB for quite a long time, Torvalds didn't understand the code the PPC people sent him so he made his own code. So Mac people using Linux supposedly have much better support, it's just not in the official code tree. Jeff -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

OK, you probably have a very good reason to use the USB mouse. If not, I would use an ordinary mouse. I know that much of USB after reading some books about it that I wont use it unless I had a project that did not absolutely need it. Maybe you can do some reverse engineering on the vendor number and other stuff in the USB mouse and find away around a complete master but I still would go for an ordinary mouse. But maybe you just want to have it as a project to play and learn with and then I wish you good luck. Niklas Wennerstrand -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU] För Douglas Butler Skickat: den 14 juni 2001 20:25 Till: PICLISTEraseME.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU Ämne: Re: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master? In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master. It only has to handle one specific type of mouse. I was thinking I could skip all of the enumeration and identification stuff. If anything other than that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and halt. Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug) Senior Engineer Imetrix Inc. 1235 Route 28A P.O. Box 152 Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 tel. (508) 564-6460 Fax (508) 564-6860 EraseMEdbutlerimetrix.com > {Original Message removed}

Douglas Butler <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu> wrote: > I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or > Cypress if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer > project with no PC involved. I can find very little info on how > the write code for the USB master. Minimal mouse function and > usual mouse data rates are fine. Douglas: If I were you, I'd take Bob's advice and use a serial mouse, instead. If you really MUST use a USB mouse, you'll need an "embedded host" chip; they're available from Transdimension, Cypress, and others. No PIC can perform USB host functions. -Andy === Andrew Warren --- RemoveMEaiwspam_OUTKILLspamcypress.com === IPD Systems Engineering, CYSD === Cypress Semiconductor Corporation === === Opinions expressed above do not === necessarily represent those of === Cypress Semiconductor Corporation -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> > serial - 1 unit > > PS/2 - 5 units > > USB - 200+ units > All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this. But > the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a > tracking concrete. I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking > signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip. The Intellimouse is also available with PS-2 interface. I'm using one right now. Bob is right, doing a USB root controller is ***not trivial***. All the low cost USB chips are meant for end devices. Implementing a root controller requires a *lot* of software. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, EraseMEolinspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

I've asked several microcontroller manufacturers about "host mode" USB support, specifically for the purpose of connecting the low-cost peripherals that are becoming available. the answer has been uniformly "it's hard", with occasional elaborations into such areas as "well, a usb HOST-side controller is supposed to support the FULL USB spec, which means 127 devices, going through HUBs, and all that stuff..." BillW -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

William Chops Westfield <spamBeGonebillwSTOPspamEraseMEcisco.com> wrote: > I've asked several microcontroller manufacturers about "host mode" > USB support, specifically for the purpose of connecting the > low-cost peripherals that are becoming available. the answer has > been uniformly "it's hard", with occasional elaborations into such > areas as "well, a usb HOST-side controller is supposed to support > the FULL USB spec, which means 127 devices, going through HUBs, and > all that stuff..." Bill: The new "USB On-The-Go (OTG)" spec addresses this issue; it defines a means of connecting exactly TWO USB peripherals directly together, keeping the master/slave architecture of USB, but with a mechanism for exchanging the master/slave role. Because the operating conditions for OTG devices are so much simpler than for a standard USB host controller, OTG chips are substantially simpler to implement (and should be relatively simple to use, as well). The OTG spec is still unreleased, so no chips are currently available... But I think you'll see chips VERY soon after the spec's approved. -Andy === Andrew Warren --- KILLspamaiwspamBeGonecypress.com === IPD Systems Engineering, CYSD === Cypress Semiconductor Corporation === === Opinions expressed above do not === necessarily represent those of === Cypress Semiconductor Corporation -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Another colleague here has just bought one of these optical intellimouses (?) and he is using it via the PS/2 adapter. That sounds muchly like the way to go because many people have already published PS2 Mouse code. Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclist@spam@spam_OUTEMBEDINC.COM> on 15/06/2001 06:52:07 am Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> To: .....PICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: (bcc: Drew AMES/SGIOGRP) Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master? > > serial - 1 unit > > PS/2 - 5 units > > USB - 200+ units > All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this. But > the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a > tracking concrete. I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking > signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip. The Intellimouse is also available with PS-2 interface. I'm using one right now. Bob is right, doing a USB root controller is ***not trivial***. All the low cost USB chips are meant for end devices. Implementing a root controller requires a *lot* of software. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, TakeThisOuTolin.....TakeThisOuTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MAILsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

At 12:26 PM 6/14/01 -0400, Douglas Butler wrote: >All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this. But >the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a >tracking concrete. I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking >signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip. Check the package the mouse came in - you should find a little green USB to PS2 adapter in there. Microsoft built the Intellimouse *right* - it senses what kind of connection is being used on power-up and switches between USB or PS2 mode automatically. Treat the mouse as a PS2 device and things should be a lot easier. dwayne Dwayne Reid <RemoveMEdwaynerspamBeGoneplanet.eon.net> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax Celebrating 17 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2001) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

Check this out! http://www.ftdichip.com They have USB chips that are complete interfaces with any other of connection. RS232, uP, etc... Its the best if you dont want to bother with USB firmware, and problemmmssss... Have fun, and post your opinions!! Sena ********************************************************* Antonio Sergio Sena CT2GPW TakeThisOuTasenaspambigfoot.com + 44.785.5917270 BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw ********************************************************* Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

>In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master. It only >has to handle one specific type of mouse. I was thinking I could skip >all of the enumeration and identification stuff. If anything other than >that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and I suspect you would be better off getting one of the new mice that come with a USB connector, and have a PS/2 adapter in with them, and then working on the PS/2 interface. The current Logitech trackballs are supplied like this. There is a lot of info on the web about the PS/2 interface, and this should be real easy to deal with unless you want to try using the wheel on a wheel mouse, I have not seen the additional info for that, although I have not looked for it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:01:03 +0200, you wrote: >I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB >master. >I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and its >developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support >under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have. My guess is >that it require a lot off code and memory (That is not a problem with todays >PC). As Linux is open source you might take a look on how its done in Linux. >My guess is that you will see a lot of code and realise that that will never >fit a PICmicro. USB is a standard and to conform to that standard requires >that you have the full support and do not strip it. If you could strip it >then it would not be USB. >Niklas Wennerstrand Some USB mice also have PS/2 protocols in them, so they can be used with older PCs with just a pinout adapter - this would undoubtably be easier to interface. Although full USB is probably horribly complex, talking to a single, specific device may be less hard - think about it - there is only a few K of USB code in the mouse so how hard can it be to talk to it ? The problem may be to get the USB master port hardware - I don't know enough to know if USB ports on PICs etc can be used as masters. {Quote hidden}> >-----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [@spam@PICLISTRemoveMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU] >För Douglas Butler >Skickat: den 14 juni 2001 15:13 >Till: EraseMEPICLIST@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Ämne: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master? > >I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or Cypress >if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer project with no PC >involved. I can find very little info on how the write code for the USB >master. Minimal mouse function and usual mouse data rates are fine. > >Can anyone help? > >Douglas Butler >Senior Engineer >Imetrix Inc. >1235 Route 28A >P.O. Box 152 >Cataumet, MA 02534-0152 >tel. (508) 564-6460 >Fax (508) 564-6860 >@spam@dbutlerspam_OUT.....imetrix.com > >-- >http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! >email spamBeGonelistservEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

> Another colleague here has just bought one of these optical intellimouses (?) > and he is using it via the PS/2 adapter. That sounds muchly like the way to go > because many people have already published PS2 Mouse code. Sorry, I missed that you wanted to use the optical Intellimouse. The one I have in native PS-2 form is a standard rolling ball type mouse. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolin@spam@spamBeGoneembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@EraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

Anybody used these? Anybody gotten any budgetary pricing? They look interesting but I hate web sites that don't give at least budgetary pricing. It also looks like they don't use any of my standard distributors/suppliers. Jerry At 02:38 AM 6/15/01, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>Check this out! > >http://www.ftdichip.com > >They have USB chips that are complete interfaces with any other of >connection. RS232, uP, etc... >Its the best if you dont want to bother with USB firmware, and >problemmmssss... > >Have fun, and post your opinions!! > >Sena > > > > >********************************************************* >Antonio Sergio Sena CT2GPW >.....asenaRemoveMEbigfoot.com >+ 44.785.5917270 > >BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering >Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh > >Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw >********************************************************* > >Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address. >This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited >commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList >.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu Jerry Merrill jerrymEraseME@spam@tech-tools.com http://www.tech-tools.com FAX: (972) 494-5814 VOICE:(972) 272-9392 TechTools PO Box 462101 Garland, TX 75046-2101 Join our PIC discussion list at http://www.tech-tools.com/picsource.htm -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu