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'[PIC]: PIC as USB Master?'
2001\06\14@093223 by Douglas Butler

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I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or Cypress
if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer project with no PC
involved.  I can find very little info on how the write code for the USB
master.  Minimal mouse function and usual mouse data rates are fine.

Can anyone help?

Douglas Butler
Senior Engineer
Imetrix Inc.
1235 Route 28A
P.O. Box 152
Cataumet, MA 02534-0152
tel. (508) 564-6460
Fax (508) 564-6860
spam_OUTdbutlerTakeThisOuTspamimetrix.com

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2001\06\14@115317 by Bob Ammerman

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You don't want to do this!

Use serial (easiest) or PS/2 (if you gotta) mice instead.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@120157 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
To make it clear, here is an estimated relative level of effort for the
three mouse types:

serial - 1 unit
PS/2  - 5 units
USB  - 200+ units

I am _not_ kidding here!

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

> You don't want to do this!
>
> Use serial (easiest) or PS/2 (if you gotta) mice instead.
>
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
> (contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
> software)
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@123322 by Douglas Butler

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> serial - 1 unit
> PS/2  - 5 units
> USB  - 200+ units
All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this.  But
the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a
tracking concrete.  I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking
signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip.

Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug)
Senior Engineer
Imetrix Inc.
1235 Route 28A
P.O. Box 152
Cataumet, MA 02534-0152
tel. (508) 564-6460
Fax (508) 564-6860
dbutlerspamKILLspamimetrix.com

> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@135451 by iklas Wennerstrand
picon face
I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB
master.
I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and its
developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support
under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have. My guess is
that it require a lot off code and memory (That is not a problem with todays
PC). As Linux is open source you might take a look on how its done in Linux.
My guess is that you will see a lot of code and realise that that will never
fit a PICmicro. USB is a standard and to conform to that standard requires
that you have the full support and do not strip it. If you could strip it
then it would not be USB.
Niklas Wennerstrand


-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]
För Douglas Butler
Skickat:        den 14 juni 2001 15:13
Till:   EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master?

I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or Cypress
if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer project with no PC
involved.  I can find very little info on how the write code for the USB
master.  Minimal mouse function and usual mouse data rates are fine.

Can anyone help?

Douglas Butler
Senior Engineer
Imetrix Inc.
1235 Route 28A
P.O. Box 152
Cataumet, MA 02534-0152
tel. (508) 564-6460
Fax (508) 564-6860
dbutlerspamspam_OUTimetrix.com

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2001\06\14@143207 by Douglas Butler

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In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master.  It only
has to handle one specific type of mouse.  I was thinking I could skip
all of the enumeration and identification stuff.  If anything other than
that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and
halt.

Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug)
Senior Engineer
Imetrix Inc.
1235 Route 28A
P.O. Box 152
Cataumet, MA 02534-0152
tel. (508) 564-6460
Fax (508) 564-6860
RemoveMEdbutlerTakeThisOuTspamimetrix.com

> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@155311 by Jeff DeMaagd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Niklas Wennerstrand <spamBeGoneniklas.wennerstrandspamBeGonespamTELIA.COM>


> I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB
> master.
> I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and
its
> developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support
> under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have.

As I understand it, the PPC linux tree had USB for quite a long time,
Torvalds didn't understand the code the PPC people sent him so he made his
own code.  So Mac people using Linux supposedly have much better support,
it's just not in the official code tree.

Jeff

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2001\06\14@155909 by iklas Wennerstrand

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OK, you probably have a very good reason to use the USB mouse. If not, I
would use an ordinary mouse. I know that much of USB after reading some
books about it that I wont use it unless I had a project that did not
absolutely need it. Maybe you can do some reverse engineering on the vendor
number and other stuff in the USB mouse and find away around a complete
master but I still would go for an ordinary mouse. But maybe you just want
to have it as a project to play and learn with and then I wish you good
luck.
Niklas Wennerstrand

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
För Douglas Butler
Skickat:        den 14 juni 2001 20:25
Till:   PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master?

In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master.  It only
has to handle one specific type of mouse.  I was thinking I could skip
all of the enumeration and identification stuff.  If anything other than
that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and
halt.

Douglas Butler (aka Sherpa Doug)
Senior Engineer
Imetrix Inc.
1235 Route 28A
P.O. Box 152
Cataumet, MA 02534-0152
tel. (508) 564-6460
Fax (508) 564-6860
EraseMEdbutlerspamimetrix.com

> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@165405 by Andrew Warren

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Douglas Butler <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> I would like to connect one or two USB optical mice to a PIC (or
> Cypress if necessary) microcontroller for a motion digitizer
> project with no PC involved.  I can find very little info on how
> the write code for the USB master.  Minimal mouse function and
> usual mouse data rates are fine.

Douglas:

If I were you, I'd take Bob's advice and use a serial mouse, instead.

If you really MUST use a USB mouse, you'll need an "embedded host"
chip; they're available from Transdimension, Cypress, and others.  No
PIC can perform USB host functions.

-Andy


=== Andrew Warren --- RemoveMEaiwspam_OUTspamKILLspamcypress.com
=== IPD Systems Engineering, CYSD
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2001\06\14@171138 by Douglas Butler

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This Microsoft optical mouse is not sold in a serial version (it may
require too much power) but on closer examination it does come with a
PS/2 adapter.  The adapter seems to be a mechanical fitting with two
4.7k pull up resistors.  There is no sign of any "smarts" in the
adapter.  Somehow the mouse's USB chip must sense the adapter and switch
to a PS/2 mode.  This is looking promising again!

Sherpa Doug

> {Original Message removed}

2001\06\14@180556 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > serial - 1 unit
> > PS/2  - 5 units
> > USB  - 200+ units
> All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this.  But
> the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a
> tracking concrete.  I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking
> signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip.

The Intellimouse is also available with PS-2 interface.  I'm using one right
now.

Bob is right, doing a USB root controller is ***not trivial***.  All the low
cost USB chips are meant for end devices.  Implementing a root controller
requires a *lot* of software.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, EraseMEolinspamspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\06\14@190152 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
I've asked several microcontroller manufacturers about "host mode" USB
support, specifically for the purpose of connecting the low-cost peripherals
that are becoming available.  the answer has been uniformly "it's hard", with
occasional elaborations into such areas as "well, a usb HOST-side controller
is supposed to support the FULL USB spec, which means 127 devices, going
through HUBs, and all that stuff..."

BillW

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2001\06\14@195858 by Andrew Warren

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William Chops Westfield <spamBeGonebillwSTOPspamspamEraseMEcisco.com> wrote:

> I've asked several microcontroller manufacturers about "host mode"
> USB support, specifically for the purpose of connecting the
> low-cost peripherals that are becoming available.  the answer has
> been uniformly "it's hard", with occasional elaborations into such
> areas as "well, a usb HOST-side controller is supposed to support
> the FULL USB spec, which means 127 devices, going through HUBs, and
> all that stuff..."

Bill:

The new "USB On-The-Go (OTG)" spec addresses this issue; it defines a
means of connecting exactly TWO USB peripherals directly together,
keeping the master/slave architecture of USB, but with a mechanism
for exchanging the master/slave role.

Because the operating conditions for OTG devices are so much simpler
than for a standard USB host controller, OTG chips are substantially
simpler to implement (and should be relatively simple to use, as
well).

The OTG spec is still unreleased, so no chips are currently
available... But I think you'll see chips VERY soon after the spec's
approved.

-Andy


=== Andrew Warren --- KILLspamaiwspamBeGonespamcypress.com
=== IPD Systems Engineering, CYSD
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2001\06\14@212555 by Drew Ames

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Another colleague here has just bought one of these optical intellimouses (?)
and he is using it via the PS/2 adapter. That sounds muchly like the way to go
because many people have already published PS2 Mouse code.





Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclist@spam@spamspam_OUTEMBEDINC.COM> on 15/06/2001 06:52:07 am

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

To:   .....PICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Drew AMES/SGIOGRP)
Subject:  Re: [PIC]: PIC as USB Master?



> > serial - 1 unit
> > PS/2  - 5 units
> > USB  - 200+ units
> All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this.  But
> the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a
> tracking concrete.  I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking
> signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip.

The Intellimouse is also available with PS-2 interface.  I'm using one right
now.

Bob is right, doing a USB root controller is ***not trivial***.  All the low
cost USB chips are meant for end devices.  Implementing a root controller
requires a *lot* of software.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, TakeThisOuTolin.....spamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\06\15@032457 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:26 PM 6/14/01 -0400, Douglas Butler wrote:
>All of the dead ends I have been running into made me suspect this.  But
>the Microsoft Intellimouse, looking through a relay lens is real good a
>tracking concrete.  I will turn my efforts to extracting the tracking
>signal from the mouse before if gets to the USB interface chip.

Check the package the mouse came in - you should find a little green USB to
PS2 adapter in there.  Microsoft built the Intellimouse *right* - it senses
what kind of connection is being used on power-up and switches between USB
or PS2 mode automatically.  Treat the mouse as a PS2 device and things
should be a lot easier.

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerspamspamBeGoneplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

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2001\06\15@034024 by asena

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Check this out!

http://www.ftdichip.com

They have USB chips that are complete interfaces with any other of connection. RS232, uP, etc...
Its the best if you dont want to bother with USB firmware, and problemmmssss...

Have fun, and post your opinions!!

Sena




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TakeThisOuTasenaspamspambigfoot.com
+ 44.785.5917270

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
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2001\06\15@035927 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>In my case I don't need it to be a general purpose USB master.  It only
>has to handle one specific type of mouse.  I was thinking I could skip
>all of the enumeration and identification stuff.  If anything other than
>that model of mouse is attached it can send a fatal error message and

I suspect you would be better off getting one of the new mice that come with
a USB connector, and have a PS/2 adapter in with them, and then working on
the PS/2 interface. The current Logitech trackballs are supplied like this.

There is a lot of info on the web about the PS/2 interface, and this should
be real easy to deal with unless you want to try using the wheel on a wheel
mouse, I have not seen the additional info for that, although I have not
looked for it.

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2001\06\15@051544 by mike

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:01:03 +0200, you wrote:

>I'm not a USB guru but my guess is that's impossible to make a PIC a USB
>master.
>I base that guess on that the USB protocol is not a walk in the park and its
>developed by guys like Microsoft. If it was easy I guess that USB support
>under Linux would have been developed much faster than it have. My guess is
>that it require a lot off code and memory (That is not a problem with todays
>PC). As Linux is open source you might take a look on how its done in Linux.
>My guess is that you will see a lot of code and realise that that will never
>fit a PICmicro. USB is a standard and to conform to that standard requires
>that you have the full support and do not strip it. If you could strip it
>then it would not be USB.
>Niklas Wennerstrand
Some USB mice also have PS/2 protocols in them, so they can be used
with older PCs with just a pinout adapter - this would undoubtably be
easier to interface.
Although full USB is probably horribly complex, talking to a single,
specific device may be less hard - think about it - there is only a
few K of USB code in the mouse so how hard can it be to talk to it ?
The problem may be to get the USB master port hardware - I don't know
enough to know if USB ports on PICs etc can be used as masters.

{Quote hidden}

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2001\06\15@075603 by Olin Lathrop

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> Another colleague here has just bought one of these optical intellimouses
(?)
> and he is using it via the PS/2 adapter. That sounds muchly like the way
to go
> because many people have already published PS2 Mouse code.

Sorry, I missed that you wanted to use the optical Intellimouse.  The one I
have in native PS-2 form is a standard rolling ball type mouse.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolin@spam@spamspamBeGoneembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\06\15@093403 by Jerry Merrill

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Anybody used these? Anybody gotten any budgetary pricing?
They look interesting but I hate web sites that don't give at least
budgetary pricing. It also looks like they don't use any of my standard
distributors/suppliers.

Jerry


At 02:38 AM 6/15/01, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jerry Merrill

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