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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: PIC Programmer that can "Run"'
2002\09\02@232902 by Byon Garrabrant

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  I've been programming PICs for quite some time with a modified Tait programmer
and modified PP.EXE code.  By tri-stating the MCLR line (0V/5V/13V),  the
modification allowed me to switch the PIC from program to run in software so I could
assemble, program, and run with a single batch file. In moving to 16F87X parts, I'm
ready to build a new dev environment.

 I've noticed that the FPP.EXE code has a Run button.  Does anyone know if this
button works like my modified programmer?  If so, which programmer hardware will
allow switching from program to run in circuit without human intervention?  Also,  I
have not yet experimented with LVP PIC programming.  Does this allow for in-circuit
program/run?

Thanks,
Byon


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2002\09\04@143920 by rusque (Listas)

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flavicon
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Hello Byon,

>    I've been programming PICs for quite some time with a modified Tait
programmer
> and modified PP.EXE code.  By tri-stating the MCLR line (0V/5V/13V),  the
> modification allowed me to switch the PIC from program to run in software
so I could
> assemble, program, and run with a single batch file. In moving to 16F87X
parts, I'm
> ready to build a new dev environment.
>
>   I've noticed that the FPP.EXE code has a Run button.  Does anyone know
if this
> button works like my modified programmer?  If so, which programmer
hardware will
> allow switching from program to run in circuit without human intervention?
Also,  I
> have not yet experimented with LVP PIC programming.  Does this allow for
in-circuit
> program/run?

   I'm still looking for a programmer that can tristate the MCLR line. I
don't know why these (being so simple and usefull) isn't adequately
supported by any programmer (software or hardware) I've found.

   I think that before programming, MCLR should be pulled LOW for resetting
the PIC and setting RB6/7 to inputs (high impedance) if they're configured
as outputs. Then, the MCLR should go to 13V and start programming.

   PICAllW and FPP both have an additional line (RESET on PICAllW, MCLR on
FPP), but it's toggled for the entire programming circle and can't be used
to ensure a reset just prior to start programming.

   PICAllW (with P16PRO, as I'm using) still works correctly (if you just
put a 10K resistors from MCLR pin to VDD and if you use the RB6/7 just for
key inputs with RBPU enabled) with PIC16F parts, but it's giving me big
headaches with the PIC18F parts.

   IC-PROG seens to have provision for a MCLR and a VPP line, but I don't
know how it works and haven't found a supported programer that uses it.

   We'll have to continue looking for it.

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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2002\09\04@144134 by rusque (Listas)

face
flavicon
face
Hello Byon,

>    I've been programming PICs for quite some time with a modified Tait
programmer
> and modified PP.EXE code.  By tri-stating the MCLR line (0V/5V/13V),  the
> modification allowed me to switch the PIC from program to run in software
so I could
> assemble, program, and run with a single batch file. In moving to 16F87X
parts, I'm
> ready to build a new dev environment.
>
>   I've noticed that the FPP.EXE code has a Run button.  Does anyone know
if this
> button works like my modified programmer?  If so, which programmer
hardware will
> allow switching from program to run in circuit without human intervention?
Also,  I
> have not yet experimented with LVP PIC programming.  Does this allow for
in-circuit
> program/run?

   I'm still looking for a programmer that can tristate the MCLR line. I
don't know why these (being so simple and usefull) isn't adequately
supported by any programmer (software or hardware) I've found.

   I think that before programming, MCLR should be pulled LOW for resetting
the PIC and setting RB6/7 to inputs (high impedance) if they're configured
as outputs. Then, the MCLR should go to 13V and start programming.

   PICAllW and FPP both have an additional line (RESET on PICAllW, MCLR on
FPP), but it's toggled for the entire programming circle and can't be used
to ensure a reset just prior to start programming.

   PICAllW (with P16PRO, as I'm using) still works correctly (if you just
put a 10K resistors from MCLR pin to VDD and if you use the RB6/7 just for
key inputs with RBPU enabled) with PIC16F parts, but it's giving me big
headaches with the PIC18F parts.

   IC-PROG seens to have provision for a MCLR and a VPP line, but I don't
know how it works and haven't found a supported programer that uses it.

   There's a french programmer at
http://manubatbat.free.fr/robot/hard/pic/flasheur.htm that have provision
for a RESET on it's squematics, but I found it confusing (maybe because I
don't understand french very well) and I can't found the list of supported
devices.

   We'll have to continue looking for it.

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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Research and Development               Blumenau  -  SC  -  Brazil
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2002\09\04@150025 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> If so, which programmer hardware will allow
> switching from program to run in circuit without
> human intervention?

http://www.voti.nl/wisp has had this feature since its first version
(1988?). And beside running the application program you can also
(optionally) communicate with it, using the same two lines as used for
programming.

But WISP is obsolete now, http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 is an updated
design with the same features.

BTW there is now also PC software that works on windows. Support for
more flash PICs (18f's, 12f's, 16f87xA's) will be available rsn.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\09\04@163239 by rusque (Listas)

face
flavicon
face
Hello Wouter,

> http://www.voti.nl/wisp has had this feature since its first version
> (1988?). And beside running the application program you can also
> (optionally) communicate with it, using the same two lines as used for
> programming.
>
> But WISP is obsolete now, http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 is an updated
> design with the same features.
>
> BTW there is now also PC software that works on windows. Support for
> more flash PICs (18f's, 12f's, 16f87xA's) will be available rsn.

   your programmer looks very interesting. I'll buy a PCB and build one.

   Do you know when PIC18Fxxx suport would be ready?

   How much time it takes to fully program a PIC16F877?

   Best regards,

   Brusque

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Research and Development               Blumenau  -  SC  -  Brazil
Say NO to HTML mail                          http://www.citronics.com.br
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2002\09\06@091144 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>     your programmer looks very interesting. I'll buy a PCB
> and build one.
>
>     Do you know when PIC18Fxxx suport would be ready?

I am updating the website right now, new orders will be delivered with
the 18f-capable firmware.

>     How much time it takes to fully program a PIC16F877?

That question triggered some last minute code tweaking!

Some measurements for 6944 instructions (note that this is write only,
no readback/verify by the PC software, but the programmer itself still
does a verify, at least for a 16f877):

1. Wisp.exe on non-NT windows (95, 98): 3:24
2. Wisp.exe on Win2K: 27:30 (much too slow to be usefull)
3. XWisp.py on Win2K: 2:20

1 is dominated by the 16f877 write timing.
2 is caused by hardware emulation instead of real hardware access, so
you see that I had to write new PC software...
3 seems to be caused mainly by context switching?

Some notes:
- bottom limit is the write time required by the chip istelf: 10
ms/location, so 1:10 for 7k
- PicStart+: 2:00 (but it writes all 8K, it always does??)
- a 16f877A is much faster: 1:04
- an 18F is *much* faster (even using single-panel writes): 0:35

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\09\06@100607 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> 1. Wisp.exe on non-NT windows (95, 98): 3:24
> 2. Wisp.exe on Win2K: 27:30 (much too slow to be usefull)
> 3. XWisp.py on Win2K: 2:20
>
> 1 is dominated by the 16f877 write timing.

No it's not.

The minimum wait time for programming one location of a 16F877 is 4mS.  This
means the theoretical minimum time to program a full 16F877 is 4ms/word x
8192 words = 33 seconds.  I have working software and hardware that programs
a full 16F877 using high voltage programming in 36 seconds.  It also does
two verify passes at the voltage limits, which takes a total of 55 seconds.

I measured a Picstart+ programming a nearly full 16F876 at 127, which only
includes one verify pass.


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2002\09\06@101625 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The minimum wait time for programming one location of a
> 16F877 is 4mS.

DS30262C page 15: program cycle time Max 10 ms
DS39025D page 3-179: program cycle time Max 5 ms

The first document was the first one to describe 16f877 programming, but
it lumps the chip together with the 16x8x chips.

Olin, do you have a reference somewhere that DS30262C is no longer valid
for 16f877?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\09\06@181730 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Olin, do you have a reference somewhere that DS30262C is no longer valid
> for 16f877?

I guess so because I have DS39025F (PIC16F87x EEPROM Memory Programming
Specification) in front of me right now, which I got off the Microchip site
a few weeks ago.  Table 6-1 in section 6.0 on page 18 shows Tprog,
"programming cycle time", as 4mS max.  Section 2.4.2.8, "Begin Programming",
on page 6 mentions that a wait of "program cycle time" must be observed for
the programming to complete.


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