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'[PIC]: PIC IDE competition schematic'
2001\12\04@202509 by Jon Baker

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I originally posted this with an [OT] subject by mistake probably meaning that the people who may have what I'm looking for didn't read the message.
Further to the original, it seems that Andy doesn't actually have the schematic himself anymore either, so now theres 2 of us who would be extremely grateful.

Please forgive the repost, I'll pay more attention next time.

Jon Baker
spam_OUTjonTakeThisOuTspamhayseed.net

> Hi,
>
> I was working on the PIC IDE design contest run by Andy Kunz
> http://www.montanadesign.com/contest.html but since his ISP was vandalised
> he no longer has the schematic on the site. He said that thousands of
people
> downloaded it so I wondered if somebody on the piclist had a copy of it
> lying around that they could either mail to me or put on a web site so I
can
> download it.  Thanks for your help.
>
> Jon Baker

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2001\12\04@225416 by Larry Williams

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simple! Just follow this link for the schematic. His website has 5
archived copies on line and available.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010826220431/montanadesign.com/contest/ideschem.gif

Follow this link to download all of the last five versions of his
website.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.montanadesign.com/contest.html

Jon Baker wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\12\04@235253 by Richard Sloan

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This has been 1 year now, no winners yet? Is there any entrants?

I really want to see some do this in 8K of code and NOT done in assembler! Seems a bit out there.....

But I am ready to be proven wrong.

Richard.

>>  simple! Just follow this link for the schematic. His website has 5
>>  archived copies on line and available.

>>  web.archive.org/web/20010826220431/montanadesign.com/contest/idesch
>>  em.gif

>>  Follow this link to download all of the last five versions of his
>>  website.

>>  http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.montanadesign.com/contest.h
>>  tml

>>  Jon Baker wrote:
>>  >
>>  > I originally posted this with an [OT] subject by mistake probably
>>  meaning that the people who may have what I'm looking for didn't read the
>>  message.
>>  > Further to the original, it seems that Andy doesn't actually have the
>>  schematic himself anymore either, so now theres 2 of us who would be
>>  extremely grateful.
>>  >
>>  > Please forgive the repost, I'll pay more attention next time.
>>  >
>>  > Jon Baker
>>  > jonspamKILLspamhayseed.net
>>  >
>>  > > Hi,
>>  > >
>>  > > I was working on the PIC IDE design contest run by Andy Kunz
>>  > > http://www.montanadesign.com/contest.html but since his ISP was
>>  vandalised
>>  > > he no longer has the schematic on the site. He said that thousands of
>>  > people
>>  > > downloaded it so I wondered if somebody on the piclist had a copy of
>>  it
>>  > > lying around that they could either mail to me or put on a web site so
>>  I
>>  > can
>>  > > download it.  Thanks for your help.
>>  > >
>>  > > Jon Baker
>>  >
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2001\12\05@043554 by Jon Baker

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Thanks Richard - Yeah I noticed it had been about a year since the
competetition actually started. Aparently there have been about 20 people
who expressed an interest / are 'working' on it. Rules say it has to be in C
unless you can justify exactly why it cant be done, my answer is that
assembler is free and most likely makes better use of space.. In effect its
got to be done in less than 8k.. or theres no room for a program to actually
do anything with the hard drive !

Jon Baker
EraseMEjonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThayseed.net


> From: "Richard Sloan"
> This has been 1 year now, no winners yet? Is there any entrants?
>
> I really want to see some do this in 8K of code and NOT done in assembler!
Seems a bit out there.....
>
> But I am ready to be proven wrong.
>
> Richard.
>
>  >>  simple! Just follow this link for the schematic. His website has 5
>  >>  archived copies on line and available.
>
>  >>
web.archive.org/web/20010826220431/montanadesign.com/contest/idesch
>  >>  em.gif
>

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2001\12\05@114423 by Bob Barr
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:18:04 -0000, Jon Baker <jonspamspam_OUTHAYSEED.NET> wrote:

>Thanks Richard - Yeah I noticed it had been about a year since the
>competetition actually started. Aparently there have been about 20 people
>who expressed an interest / are 'working' on it. Rules say it has to be in C
>unless you can justify exactly why it cant be done, my answer is that
>assembler is free and most likely makes better use of space.. In effect its
>got to be done in less than 8k.. or theres no room for a program to actually
>do anything with the hard drive !
>

Unless the rules have changed, I believe that the program must not
only be written in C, but specifically in HiTech C.

Regards, Bob

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2001\12\05@123111 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Bob Barr wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:18:04 -0000, Jon Baker <@spam@jonKILLspamspamHAYSEED.NET> wrote:
>
> >Thanks Richard - Yeah I noticed it had been about a year since the
> >competetition actually started. Aparently there have been about 20 people
> >who expressed an interest / are 'working' on it. Rules say it has to be in C
> >unless you can justify exactly why it cant be done, my answer is that
> >assembler is free and most likely makes better use of space.. In effect its
> >got to be done in less than 8k.. or theres no room for a program to actually
> >do anything with the hard drive !
> >
>
> Unless the rules have changed, I believe that the program must not
> only be written in C, but specifically in HiTech C.

...thus disqualifying the vast majority of PIC developers, especially
those who don't do it for a living with employer money.  I could very well
be wrong, but isn't HT PICC by far the most expensive compiler you can
find for the PIC?

I'm sure it's a nice product (though I do prefer CCS), but at $850 the
price is simply too steep for me.

Dale

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2001\12\05@133442 by Jeff DeMaagd

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I know what you mean, I don't think it is worth the effort to try.  Heck,
the Hi-Tech compiler costs 5x the value of the hard disc reward.  Another
reward is a copy of Salvo.  Pardon my indifference, but: big deal.  For the
effort it takes, if I were to do this (not saying I can do it), I'd want a
more fair compensation for the time spent.  Those that can afford the HTCC
probably have better things to do with their time using it (i.e. more
assured paying work), those who can't afford it probably don't have the
software!

Jeff

At 11:50 PM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\12\05@144332 by Jon Baker

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> > Unless the rules have changed, I believe that the program must not
> > only be written in C, but specifically in HiTech C.
>
> ...thus disqualifying the vast majority of PIC developers, especially
> those who don't do it for a living with employer money.  I could very well
> be wrong, but isn't HT PICC by far the most expensive compiler you can
> find for the PIC?
>
> I'm sure it's a nice product (though I do prefer CCS), but at $850 the
> price is simply too steep for me.
>
I agree, its nice, but way too expensive, and I'm suprised HTsoft didnt
offer some prize as an incentive for people to buy their compiler- not that
I would though.

I was going to give it a go with some kind of C.. rules or not, I dont
really have much desire for a RTOS for my pic collection or a 40Gb hard
drive.. just more stuff to loose when it all goes wrong :)  .. but most
likely it will ultimately be written in assembler so any and all can use it
regardless of the language they use. No prizes, but it would be neat anyway.

If anyones interested on making this a collaborative project ( assembly
language) feel free to email me KILLspamjonKILLspamspamhayseed.net and maybe we can get this
working... I look forward to masses of emails tomorrow :)

Jon Baker
RemoveMEjonTakeThisOuTspamhayseed.net

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2001\12\05@163105 by Andrew E. Kalman

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Re:
>  > Unless the rules have changed, I believe that the program must not
>>  only be written in C, but specifically in HiTech C.
>
>...thus disqualifying the vast majority of PIC developers, especially
>those who don't do it for a living with employer money.  I could very well
>be wrong, but isn't HT PICC by far the most expensive compiler you can
>find for the PIC?

Yes, PICC is expensive, but good tools are expensive (e.g. Salvo,
PICC, PICC-18, IAR compilers, etc.), or they're free (gcc, etc.). I
don't mean to demean other low-cost compilers, it's just that with
the price comes performance, flexibility, support, etc. I won't
disagree that employer money helps when purchasing these products.
That's why we offer Salvo Lite, a fully-functional freeware version
of our RTOS. You do still need a compatible compiler, though.

Here's why we offered a free copy of Salvo to the winner of the
contest (under its original rules, of course): Not a single line of
your Salvo code would have to change to port the application from
PIC16 to PIC17 to PIC18 (and to several other platforms, coming up in
v3.0). Writing the rest of the application (IDE interface) in C would
result in similarly easy portability.

With Salvo, we left the assembly-language realm a long time ago
(Salvo v1.0 was in PIC17 assembly), and our customers have put that
to great use. With the cross-platform portability that Salvo offers,
if your employer decides that an alternative processor (e.g. an 8051)
is going to replace a PIC, you can take your Salvo app with you ...

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2001\12\05@165824 by James Paul

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Jon,

I too have thought seriously about making it work using assembly.
I don't see the need for anything to have to be absolutely coded
in 'C'.   Regardless of the application.   And I have been using
assembly for a long enough time to be able to make the PIC do just
about anything I want it to with only a little trouble.  So, if you
want to work on this, count me in.   Let me know how you need me to
do, and we'll go from there.


                                           Regards,

                                             Jim




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2001\12\05@174223 by Anthony Bussan

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If I'm not mistaken there is a 21 day full demo on PICC, I just looked last
night, http://www.htsoft.com/products/pic/ look at the bottom of the page.
Just enough time to get it done if you have it planned out before
downloading the demo.  If I get this done I'll have it turned in by January
14, otherwise It will have to wait until next summer.

Tony

{Original Message removed}

2001\12\05@175658 by Dale Botkin

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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Andrew E. Kalman wrote:

> Re:
> >  > Unless the rules have changed, I believe that the program must not
> >>  only be written in C, but specifically in HiTech C.
> >
> >...thus disqualifying the vast majority of PIC developers, especially
> >those who don't do it for a living with employer money.  I could very well
> >be wrong, but isn't HT PICC by far the most expensive compiler you can
> >find for the PIC?
>
> Yes, PICC is expensive, but good tools are expensive (e.g. Salvo,
> PICC, PICC-18, IAR compilers, etc.), or they're free (gcc, etc.).

I'm not trying to start a holy war about whose compiler is better
(honest), I was merely making the point that this particular requirement
is a restriction that eliminates the vast majority of PIC developers from
participation in this particular project.  I'm not saying it's right,
wrong, good or bad, just that's the way it is.

I do take issue with your statement, though.  If your claim is correct,
then there is no room to admit that a low priced tool can be a good tool.
I think this is incorrect, and many years of tool use (tools of all kinds)
proves this incorrect.  I have seen many lousy expensive tools, many lousy
free tools, some good expensive tools, a few good free tools and plenty of
good inexpensive tools.  I don't see a direct correlation between price
and quality or utility, mostly a correlation between price and
manufacturer support.

> I don't mean to demean other low-cost compilers, it's just that with
> the price comes performance, flexibility, support, etc. I won't
> disagree that employer money helps when purchasing these products.
> That's why we offer Salvo Lite, a fully-functional freeware version of
> our RTOS. You do still need a compatible compiler, though.

Which in the case of this particular project, would be an $850 full
version of PICC -- unless of course you can complete the whole thing in
less than 21 days.  As for performance, flexibility and support, I can
only speak to my own experiences with the product I use or those I have
tried.  I can say that I am completely satisfied with my choice.  In fact,
I think I got quite a bit better flexibility and performance for quite a
bit less money.  Of course, that's my opinion.  If I felt differently I
wouldn't have bought the product.

Having never had a need to use an RTOS like Salvo, I don't really know
much about it.  Again, though, I wasn't trying to make a point about
whether PICC is a good product for the money or aything else.  Simply
pointing out that the "entry fee", if you will, is probably the primary
reason that particular project has not come to completion in a year.

Dale

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2001\12\05@184324 by Andrew E. Kalman

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Dale Botkin wrote:

>  I don't see a direct correlation between price
>and quality or utility, mostly a correlation between price and
>manufacturer support.

That's probably a better way of saying what I had intended to say. I
also use low-cost, good tools, too (like Creative Softworx Capture
Professional, WS-FTP, etc.)

A complex product like a compiler for multiple targets requires good
support, and that costs $$$.  Salvo actually ships with many _more_
libraries than any of the compilers we support (because there are
variants for each target processor, all in the name of providing the
smallest possible memory requirements for a particular set of
features), and all of that generation, maintenance and testing costs
money and time.

One of the measures we've employed in terms of picking compilers to
certify for Salvo has been the quality of _their_ support. We work
closely with compiler vendors to ensure that our end-users'
experience with Salvo is as trouble-free as possible. We have a very
good working relationship with Microchip and HI-TECH, and are
developing ones with others.

We also support free compilers, mainly those in the GNU C toolchain
(gcc for x86 is scheduled for Salvo v3.0, and gcc for 68hc11 is also
planned.).

and:

>Having never had a need to use an RTOS like Salvo, I don't really know
>much about it.  Again, though, I wasn't trying to make a point about
>whether PICC is a good product for the money or aything else.  Simply
>pointing out that the "entry fee", if you will, is probably the primary
>reason that particular project has not come to completion in a year.

From a  business perspective, the "entry fee problem" is probably one
of our biggest challenges when marketing Salvo.  We are not a
compiler vendor, so all we can do is offer Salvo Lite as a stepping
stone to the full version of Salvo. In general, the 21- or 30-day or
application-size-limited eval versions of the compilers are good
enough to try with Salvo Lite to get a feeling for what Salvo / RTOS
programming is all about.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread into an RTOS discussion. I just
wanted to point out our (vested) interest in seeing the IDE
competition done in C. Salvo in assembler was a dead-end. Salvo in C
is blossoming.

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2001\12\05@184720 by Dale Botkin

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> I didn't mean to hijack this thread into an RTOS discussion. I just
> wanted to point out our (vested) interest in seeing the IDE
> competition done in C. Salvo in assembler was a dead-end. Salvo in C
> is blossoming.

Yeah, I had the same problem with my projects before I switched to C, too.
8-)

Dale

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2001\12\06@100957 by Michael Vinson

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Jeff DeMaagd wrote:
>I know what you mean, I don't think it is worth the effort to try.  Heck,
>the Hi-Tech compiler costs 5x the value of the hard disc reward.  [...]
>For the
>effort it takes, if I were to do this (not saying I can do it), I'd want a
>more fair compensation for the time spent. [...]

The real reward is that then you (and everyone else) would have
a PIC/hard-disk interface to use! That would be cool!

But I agree with you completely about the restriction of using
hi-tech C. The whole thing would be more useful to everyone, I
think, if written in assembly. The contest rules do allow for that,
if you can argue the point sufficiently well.

Michael V

Thank you for reading my little posting.


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2001\12\06@110549 by Jeff DeMaagd

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At 06:42 AM 12/6/01 -0800, you wrote:
>The real reward is that then you (and everyone else) would have
>a PIC/hard-disk interface to use! That would be cool!
>
>But I agree with you completely about the restriction of using
>hi-tech C. The whole thing would be more useful to everyone, I
>think, if written in assembly. The contest rules do allow for that,
>if you can argue the point sufficiently well.

How well is sufficiently well?  As far as I'm concerned, beggars can't be
choosy.  Getting someone to code this project in any programming language
for the chance at getting dirt (vs. the real value of such code) would be a
feat in itself.  Of course, I wouldn't want to code something so massive in
assembly language anyway.

Frankly, for a project that is on that large of a scale I don't see the
payback as being worthwhile.  While it may not be the case, it just appears
to me that they are trying to sucker people into doing their hard work for
them.

I don't think 21 days is enough to get acquainted with the HT compiler in
demo mode and complete such a massive project, so that would mean owning
the compiler, others did note that it was probably the most expensive
compiler for the chip.

Jeff

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2001\12\06@111648 by Dale Botkin

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> I don't think 21 days is enough to get acquainted with the HT compiler in
> demo mode and complete such a massive project, so that would mean owning
> the compiler, others did note that it was probably the most expensive
> compiler for the chip.

I stand corrected -- there is one (IAR) that goes for over $2K at the low
end.  I believe that's for their product that will cross-compile for just
about anything though, not just PICs.  I s'pose that might be justifiable
if you had to work with several different processors.

Dale

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2001\12\06@114907 by Jon Baker

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> How well is sufficiently well?  As far as I'm concerned, beggars can't be
> choosy.  Getting someone to code this project in any programming language
> for the chance at getting dirt (vs. the real value of such code) would be
a
> feat in itself.  Of course, I wouldn't want to code something so massive
in
> assembly language anyway.

I've given this a REALLY good looking over the past few days- the IDE side
of things really isn't difficult to implement- slightly more complex than
talking to an 8 bit LCD, the real killer in the whole thing is implementing
the file system. I've already got a pic talking to an IDE drive to retrieve
number of heads etc.. and it will read and write sectors- although only uses
the first half of every 512 byte sector becuase I'm using any external ram.

What I'm a bit stuck with is how to implement some kind of API so that once
we've got all these nice functions in place for reading and writing files-
people can actually use it easily- whether the pic-ide box becomes a device
on an i2c bus, or if its serial or.. whatever- I really cant think of the
best way to do this bit of the project. I probably shouldnt even be thinking
about it at the moment.

The other thing is is the pic-ide unit going to be standalone and then
directed by some other microcontroler or do we really want to be able to run
our own software on the same pic thats doing the IDE stuff.

I'm keen on doing this in assembly language because Its not going to be
finished in 21 days and I can't afford to buy the compiler.

> Frankly, for a project that is on that large of a scale I don't see the
> payback as being worthwhile.  While it may not be the case, it just
appears
> to me that they are trying to sucker people into doing their hard work for
> them.

I get that feeling too.

Jon Baker
RemoveMEjonTakeThisOuTspamspamhayseed.net

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2001\12\06@131206 by Jim

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Gee - with a mass storage device you
could potentialy do 'task swapping' out
to disk and actually utilize the same
PIC for 'user' tasks ... ('cept the
PIC doesn't execute a pgm from RAM does
it?)

Memories are coming back of time spent on
the TI 960 and 990 series of microcomputers
with apps (on the 990) running under DX10
(and later DNOS) where user tasks were
regularly swapped 'out' to disk in order
to utilize what memory there was for other
tasks whose 'time' had come to execute ...

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\12\06@132703 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Jim wrote:

> Gee - with a mass storage device you
> could potentialy do 'task swapping' out
> to disk and actually utilize the same
> PIC for 'user' tasks ... ('cept the
> PIC doesn't execute a pgm from RAM does
> it?)
>
> Memories are coming back of time spent on
> the TI 960 and 990 series of microcomputers
> with apps (on the 990) running under DX10
> (and later DNOS) where user tasks were
> regularly swapped 'out' to disk in order
> to utilize what memory there was for other
> tasks whose 'time' had come to execute ...

Well, yeah, that still happens on pretty much any multitasking OS,
especially those using virtual memory, no?  If not, I'm reclaiming all
those swap partitions!  8-)

Dale

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2001\12\06@135432 by Mark Samuels

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The FAT isn't really that tough, it's just deciphering the spec, and a LOT
of overhead in the PIC.  I've got existing assembly code which will read
the data of a file, given the actual filename and direcory path stored as
strings in a buffer.  Just haven't had time lately to implement the writing
side of things.

-Mark


At 04:39 PM 12/6/01 +0000, you wrote:
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2001\12\06@140806 by Brandon Fosdick

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Mark Samuels wrote:
>
> The FAT isn't really that tough, it's just deciphering the spec, and a LOT
> of overhead in the PIC.  I've got existing assembly code which will read
> the data of a file, given the actual filename and direcory path stored as
> strings in a buffer.  Just haven't had time lately to implement the writing
> side of things.

Disclaimer: I haven't looked at the contest rules.

Does the file system have to be FAT? There are other formats that might be
simpler to implement. Could you invent your own, simpler, format?

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2001\12\06@153011 by Jon Baker

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The competition rules say its got to be FAT- though I dont think I'll be
following all the competition rules anyway- I really do think FAT is a good
way to go even if there are more simple file systems. For one thing I like
the idea that I can just swap my drives in and out of my PC and not need any
extra software- we also have a pretty solid standard to follow- and wouldnt
have to write os specific software to read the pic-ide drives.

Jon Baker
spamBeGonejonspamKILLspamhayseed.net

{Original Message removed}

2001\12\06@210844 by jlw

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My C compiler from IAR cost over $2000 and it doesn't even support array of
function points for jump vectors.  Hence I have to do a lot in assemble to
keep the code compact.


{Original Message removed}

2001\12\07@203103 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> The competition rules say its got to be FAT- though I dont think I'll
> be following all the competition rules anyway- I really do think FAT
> is a good way to go even if there are more simple file systems.

Afaik there are several people on this list who have made FAT16
filesystems work on small IDE drives and CF cards a long long time ago
(and several times), separately, and almost definitely not in C
(assembly).

> For one thing I like the idea that I can just swap my drives in and
> out of my PC and not need any extra software- we also have a pretty
> solid standard to follow- and wouldnt have to write os specific
> software to read the pic-ide drives.

Hint: There is no specification about reading or writing subdirectories at
all. Therefore reading and writing to root only is not excluded ;-)

Hint2: If there is not enough room to hold a FAT16 fat table in memory
then you can implement a Turing machine that reads and writes at the same
time, on a multi session capable drive, with a single modification per
pass, to link in the newly written sector. This method is applicable
ingeneral to any read/modify/write where there is not enough room to hold
things in RAM.

good luck,

Peter

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2001\12\07@225548 by Bob Barr

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On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:46:04 +0200, "Peter L. Peres" <TakeThisOuTplp.....spamTakeThisOuTACTCOM.CO.IL>
wrote:

>
>Hint2: If there is not enough room to hold a FAT16 fat table in memory
>then you can implement a Turing machine that reads and writes at the same
>time, on a multi session capable drive, with a single modification per
>pass, to link in the newly written sector. This method is applicable
>ingeneral to any read/modify/write where there is not enough room to hold
>things in RAM.
>

As I recall, the original schematic of the board does have an external
RAM chip for storing the FAT.

Regards, Bob

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2001\12\08@074632 by Jon Baker

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> Hint: There is no specification about reading or writing subdirectories at
> all. Therefore reading and writing to root only is not excluded ;-)

Would be nice though :)
>
> then you can implement a Turing machine that reads and writes at the same
> time, on a multi session capable drive, with a single modification per
> pass, to link in the newly written sector.

Now I _like_ the turing machine idea.

> good luck,

thanks :) good fun I hope as well

Jon Baker

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2001\12\10@043001 by Vasile Surducan

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On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Peter L. Peres wrote:

>
> Afaik there are several people on this list who have made FAT16
> filesystems work on small IDE drives and CF cards a long long time ago
> (and several times), separately, and almost definitely not in C
> (assembly).
>
 And they decide to share their work ?
 Because I found this one an extremely interesting subject...
Thanks, Vasile

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2001\12\10@101735 by Richard Sloan

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Any references to this design?

R.

>>  On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Peter L. Peres wrote:

>>  >
>>  > Afaik there are several people on this list who have made FAT16
>>  > filesystems work on small IDE drives and CF cards a long long time ago
>>  > (and several times), separately, and almost definitely not in C
>>  > (assembly).
>>  >
>>  And they decide to share their work ?
>>  Because I found this one an extremely interesting subject...
>>  Thanks, Vasile

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2001\12\11@172140 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Any references to this design?

There were people on the piclist who said they did this. Less than one
year ago. I do not have a direct reference. I have interfaced a Conner
laptop drive to a PIC16C64 in 1996 or 97. I cannot publish the design. I
did not use FAT(16) although I could have. I used a direct chained 'file
system' that did not require RAM to process a FAT in the host (PIC).  It
was easy once I got the register file issues cleared, and all the strange
delays (timeouts) required to catch drive errors, but I don't think I'd do
it again in assembly (see Xinu OS & other older Unix related file system
implementations). Imho FAT sux. In duplicate (for both copies of the FAT).

The project that interfaces a CF to a PIC is also pertinent to hard drives
because a CF is a ATA(PI) device with some extensions. I think that he
said that he used the 8 bit mode of the CF to save pins.

hope this helps,

Peter

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