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'[PIC]: PIC Hard Drive Contest'
2000\11\30@080400 by Andrew Kunz

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Finally, I got an hour last night and put up the web page.  Downside is that I
left the GIF at work on my laptop.  I'll upload the GIF tonight.

In the meantime, what do you think?

http://www.montanadesign.com/contest.html

BTW, I got $10 coming from Clyde if somebody does this, so you gotta make it
happen!   Clyde, was the AU$10 or US$10?

Also, I will be adding an "expiration date" of 3/1/2001 for submissions.

Andy

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2000\11\30@083942 by Simon Nield

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Andrew:
>4)  Must use HiTech PICC with no assembly code.  If you feel you must use assembly, you better
document EXACTLY why C won't do the job.

I think your competition is a great and generous idea, and I can understand that C code is going to
be a lot easier to adapt to any given application than assember,
but HiTech's PIC C compiler costs usd850, which probably explains why most PIC users still seem to
code in assembler.
... surely that's reason enough for anyone to argue that C won't do the job ?

Regards,
Simon

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2000\11\30@094013 by James Paul

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Andy,

I don't have PICC. Too expensive.  I do have CCS C.  Is this good
enough?  Or do I have to remain out of the contest because I
choose not to spend the bucks it takes to buy PICC?

                                           Regards,

                                             Jim




On Thu, 30 November 2000, Andrew Kunz wrote:

{Quote hidden}

spam_OUTjimTakeThisOuTspamjpes.com

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2000\11\30@095503 by Andrew Kunz

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>I think your competition is a great and generous idea, and I can understand
that C code is going to
>be a lot easier to adapt to any given application than assember,
>but HiTech's PIC C compiler costs usd850, which probably explains why most PIC
users still seem to
>code in assembler.
>... surely that's reason enough for anyone to argue that C won't do the job ?

Nope, technical merit only.

If you have the C compiler, you can make the assembly source very easily (it
does that for you).  If you have the assembly source, it takes a major effort to
make it into C code.

I chose to specify C because it makes the algorithm much more easier to
understand than assembly code does.  Once you understand the algorithm (and you
don't have to understand C to get that from the code), then you can convert it
to assembly much more easily either by hand or from the compiler's .AS file.

I chose to specify the HiTech compiler because:

    a) it's the one I use
    b) it's the one most of the other professionals I associate with use
    c) it's a great tool that should be in everybody's toolbox

I could have specified "any" C compiler, but then we'd get something
non-portable (ie, C2C or CCS).  The goal is to get something that is usable by a
large number of people, with highest quality of workmanship.  Using poor tools
(in any field) almost always affects quality of product.

Last time I looked, HiTech's C compiler is the "official" compiler recommended
by Microchip for 16C parts, even over their own in-house product.  C code will
move to the 17C and 18C chips much easier than assembly will.

FWIW, HiTech is not contributing to this at all.  This is from me ONLY.

And you better hurry up - I already know of one guy (other than the one on the
list) who is working feverishly to get it going.  He has basic HD I/O working
and is starting to look for FAT info.

Andy

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2000\11\30@101130 by Andrew Kunz

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> I don't have PICC. Too expensive.  I do have CCS C.  Is this good
> enough?  Or do I have to remain out of the contest because I
> choose not to spend the bucks it takes to buy PICC?

It's probably good enough to develop the algorithm.  After you have the
algorithm working, you can use PICCLITE to verify the converted syntax.  It just
won't link for you (you'll have to lie to it about what chip it's compiling
for).  Then you can submit the untested PICC code.

I used to have CCS C.  I got tired of Version du Jour and Bugs Fresco.  By
switching to HiTech I saved myself lots of time (money) and frustration (time).

Andy

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2000\11\30@105918 by Richard Sloan

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Sorry to be a wrench in this otherwise wonderful contest, but it really
looks like someone wants free engineering done. No licence to the code not
even GPL? Must allow others to use it even in commercial products? Hmmm.....
I have this exact same thing working on a AT90S4414 and I am not ready to
give just release it to the world. I am all for sharing but there are
limits.

Richard.

{Original Message removed}

2000\11\30@110540 by M. Adam Davis

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Unfortunately this contest is not open to those who, for whatever reason,
do not have the specified compiler.  While this may be a negative thing,
one must realize that this contest was available at the begining of this
year and was open to any compiler or assembly language, with some small
variations.  No one took up that offer, though.  It sounds like someone is
doing it now, though, even with these restrictions.

So the fact that fewer people cannot participate is tempered (in my mind)
by the knowledge that soon there will be working code to not only
read/write a HD with a pic, but to read/write a FAT file system as well.

Once it's released I plan on converting it to CC5X compiler, and I hope
someone converts it to a useable ASM listing, and to other compilers.

But I'm not trying to participate, so it probably doesn't bother me as
much as it bothers those who would like the prize but don't have the
tools.

-Adam

James Paul wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\11\30@110806 by Andrew Kunz

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>Sorry to be a wrench in this otherwise wonderful contest, but it really
>looks like someone wants free engineering done. No licence to the code not
>even GPL? Must allow others to use it even in commercial products? Hmmm.....
>I have this exact same thing working on a AT90S4414 and I am not ready to
>give just release it to the world. I am all for sharing but there are
>limits.

Have you been on the list long?  Do you not remember Adam's posting?  This is
just a follow-on.  I upped the ante from 2G to 40G but upped some of the
requirements, too, hopefully to motivate somebody to do this.

There are lots of guys wanting to use IDE Flash and HD drives with their PICs.
I am NOT one of them.

This makes that available to them.

Participation is not mandatory!

Which FAT do you support?

Andy

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2000\11\30@112031 by Richard Sloan

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I guess its not so much the idea of someone wanting free engineering but
rather to put so many restrictions on it really makes it look odd.

I would this contest to be:

Take a PIC and make it read write FAT with what ever PIC/COMPILER/ASSEMBLER
you want.... and if you want put what ever restrictions for its use on it
that makes the developer comfortable.

Of course C is perferred as its more easily 'ported', but again $850 for a
compiler???? Most people out there have freebee assemblers.

Make it much more accessible to the masses.

Richard.

{Original Message removed}

2000\11\30@112040 by Richard Sloan

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Sorry for missing the "which fat question"

FAT32.

Richard.

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Andrew Kunz
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:10 AM
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC Hard Drive Contest


>Sorry to be a wrench in this otherwise wonderful contest, but it really
>looks like someone wants free engineering done. No licence to the code not
>even GPL? Must allow others to use it even in commercial products?
Hmmm.....
>I have this exact same thing working on a AT90S4414 and I am not ready to
>give just release it to the world. I am all for sharing but there are
>limits.

Have you been on the list long?  Do you not remember Adam's posting?  This
is
just a follow-on.  I upped the ante from 2G to 40G but upped some of the
requirements, too, hopefully to motivate somebody to do this.

There are lots of guys wanting to use IDE Flash and HD drives with their
PICs.
I am NOT one of them.

This makes that available to them.

Participation is not mandatory!

Which FAT do you support?

Andy

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2000\11\30@113529 by M. Adam Davis

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Well, this is really a matter of opinion.  It is true that the person who
wins this contest is essentially selling their time and energy for $150,
which, by US industry standards, is a pittance for the work done.

However, many have a different vision than that.  Imagine having all of
these high-level code libraries available to you for free use in any and
every situation - not limited by licenses, permissions, copyrights, etc.

Right now there are companies who sell such basic chips as a serial to
parallel transcievers, serial to LCD controllers, etc (for wuite a bit, I
might add).  I want to go past that.  I'd like a single chip TV video
driver.  I'd like to use a simple, cheap storage device to transfer data
from my project to a computer easily (compact flash, for instance) in the
computer's native format.  It would be great if there were a free design
for a 300, 400, 0r 900 MHz transmitter/receiver that I could integrate on
my project boards (like the X-10 Firecracker).  I'd like to be able to
plug these into my projects without a full understanding of how they work,
but with the oppurtunity to find out and learn from them when I want to.

Essentially I would like to be able to use all of these high level
components to go further more quickly than I can right now.

It was only a few dozen years ago that the highest math class taught at
Harvard was Algebra.  We now teach algebra to our 12-year olds in school.
If all of the math formulas, concepts and algorithms were kept secret and
only sold to the highest bidder when they were discovered/derived, we'd
still be learning fractions.  I want to see new PIC users standing on the
shoulders of great code contributers, and fast-forward our collective
abilites.

There is something to be said for those who make their jobs out of this,
however.  If we suddenly make all of these high-level functions available
and license them (whether GPL, BSD, or other) then it effectively makes
them difficult/impossible to use for commercial projects, which could
possibly put a strain on those who make a living holding their own code
close to their bench.  So rather than licensing I support a free -
completely - model which will allow these people to use this code in their
projects without legal worries.  Just like math and science, though,
credit should be given where credit is due.  Making this code free won't
hurt anyone, but it will benefit everyone.

Anyway, it really stems from a difference of what direction you would like
to see our industry go in the future.  I don't like the patents that are
placed on MP3 encoding/decoding algorithms, so I use ogg vorbis.  I don't
like having to pay for 'industry standard descriptions' like DMX512, so I
either figure out the interface myself, learn from others who have used
it, or use a different interface.  I beleive the entire technical industry
could advance more quickly if everyone could contribute to the technicl
pool in the same manner that scientists and mathematicians are
contributing to their pools.  Sure, there's a lot of money to be made for
the researcher who discovers and keeps to themselves the cure for some
disease, the proof for some math problem, etc.  But there is a benefit to
the whole of humanity when even a small, insignifact (when compared to
human problems) hard drive reading/writing code snippet is given away for
free.

-Adam

P.S. All analogies are as imperfect as people - they should not be drawn
any further than as I've described them here - don't try to put words in
my mouth by doing so, please.

P.P.S. All right, where did I find this big a soap box, and where am I
going to find space to store it now?

Richard Sloan wrote:
>
> Sorry to be a wrench in this otherwise wonderful contest, but it really
> looks like someone wants free engineering done. No licence to the code not
> even GPL? Must allow others to use it even in commercial products? Hmmm.....
> I have this exact same thing working on a AT90S4414 and I am not ready to
> give just release it to the world. I am all for sharing but there are
> limits.
>
> Richard.

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2000\11\30@113723 by Andrew Kunz

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>Sorry for missing the "which fat question"
>
>FAT32.

Congratulations!  Did you develop it yourself of use the Microsoft library?

Andy

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2000\11\30@114333 by Andrew Kunz

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>I guess its not so much the idea of someone wanting free engineering but
>rather to put so many restrictions on it really makes it look odd.

The demo board has lots of I/O possibilities on it so that it's USEFUL for those
who attempt it.

I know it sounds weird that somebody would be so altruistic, but that's where
I'm coming from.  I don't listen to MP3's (I don't even turn on my car radio
most of the time), I'm doing USB on a different setup, and I have no need any
more for an IDE interface.

>Of course C is perferred as its more easily 'ported', but again $850 for a
>compiler???? Most people out there have freebee assemblers.

Some of us need to make a living doing this, though.  The $500 (I bought it when
it was introduced) was a fantastic investment (I bought it while still
self-employed).

Andy

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2000\11\30@121905 by Richard Sloan

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I used some info from that document MS release on FAT32, not much help lots
of info missing, just did lots of low level investigations on what was on
the disk and from small snippets of info here and there brought it together.
Took a long time to understand it all..... but once your clear on the
workings the code is simple.

Richard.

{Original Message removed}

2000\11\30@122120 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
>    I would this contest to be:
>
>    Take a PIC and make it read write FAT with what ever PIC/ COMPILER
>    /ASSEMBLER you want.... and if you want put what ever restrictions
>    for its use on it that makes the developer comfortable.

If you want to have that contest, go ahead.  The prize in this case is
worth about $200, right?  So sponsoring the contest is cheaper than
buying the compiler.  Shucks, if someone wins this one, you can have
a separate contest to convert it to "cheap language of your choice."

BillW

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2000\11\30@124050 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
<tongue in cheek>

Well, if people start providing absolutely free implementations of FAT/IDE,
IP/UDP/TCP, video LCD replacement, Ethernet NIC interface, etc, etc,
whatever will we be able to make money on?

</tongue in cheek>

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\11\30@144110 by Walter Banks

picon face
Sounds to me that we are getting into the real definition of profit.

I do something and sell it to 10 of my friends for a tenth of what
it cost me to do so they don't have to go through the effort. It now
doesn't cost me anything and they get to save 90% of their effort.
We are all ahead of the game.

:)

Walter Banks

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2000\11\30@153839 by Edson Brusque

face
flavicon
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Hello,

> Well, if people start providing absolutely free implementations of
FAT/IDE,
> IP/UDP/TCP, video LCD replacement, Ethernet NIC interface, etc, etc,
> whatever will we be able to make money on?

   being creative and developing/manufacturing usefull things for the
people.

   I don't make money creating LCD_XXX or IDE_XXX routines. My money cames
from people that doesn't (and doesn't need to) know what the chip is doing
inside.

   Regards,

   Brusque

-----------------------------------
Edson Brusque
Research and Development
C.I.Tronics Lighting Designers Ltda
(47) 323-2685  /  (47) 9993-6453
Blumenau  -  SC  -  Brazil
-----------------------------------

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2000\11\30@153845 by Edson Brusque

face
flavicon
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Hello PICall,

> Once it's released I plan on converting it to CC5X compiler, and I hope
> someone converts it to a useable ASM listing, and to other compilers.

   And I plan to convert it to CCS. :)

   Regards,

   Brusque

-----------------------------------
Edson Brusque
Research and Development
C.I.Tronics Lighting Designers Ltda
(47) 323-2685  /  (47) 9993-6453
Blumenau  -  SC  -  Brazil
-----------------------------------

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2000\11\30@192246 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Adam,

What is your source for the claim that a few dozen years ago Algebra was
the highest math class taught at Harvard? I'm not sure you are wrong, but
if that is true, Harvard must have been peculiar. Most schools have had a
math department for a long time, and certainly they wouldn't have taught
anything lower than Algebra (arithmetic has always been required in
elementary and secondary school, and geometry has been common in secondary
school for a long time), so you would essentially be saying that they only
taught one class.

Sean


At 11:35 AM 11/30/00 -0500, you wrote:
>It was only a few dozen years ago that the highest math class taught at
>Harvard was Algebra.  We now teach algebra to our 12-year olds in school.
>If all of the math formulas, concepts and algorithms were kept secret and
>only sold to the highest bidder when they were discovered/derived, we'd
>still be learning fractions.  I want to see new PIC users standing on the
>shoulders of great code contributers, and fast-forward our collective
>abilites.

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2000\11\30@204224 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> >It was only a few dozen years ago that the highest math class taught at
> >Harvard was Algebra.  We now teach algebra to our 12-year olds in school.
> >If all of the math formulas, concepts and algorithms were kept secret and
> >only sold to the highest bidder when they were discovered/derived, we'd
> >still be learning fractions.  I want to see new PIC users standing on the
> >shoulders of great code contributers, and fast-forward our collective
> >abilites.

There is Algebra and then their is ALGEBRA

The Algebra that we learn at age 12 is a faint shadow of the ALGEBRA taught
to math majors!

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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'[PIC]: PIC Hard Drive Contest'
2000\12\01@072501 by Andrew Kunz
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>The Algebra that we learn at age 12 is a faint shadow of the ALGEBRA taught
>to math majors!

You _would_ have to bring back those memories!  I thought I had them completely
suppressed.  Now I have to start all over again!  WAAAAAAHHHHHHH

Andy

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2000\12\01@090518 by Nicholas Irias

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The pitfall is the following rule:

11)  The submitter shall indemnify Montana Design, MIT, the PICLIST owner
and moderators, myself, and anybody using the submitted code from any legal
action which results from possible copying of code.  In other words, if you
cheat, you bear the consequences, not us!

What this means is that if someone sues and CLAIMS copyright infringement of
some sort, the contest winner will be ponying up for legal expenses.  Even
if there was no copyright infringement, a jury (especially in California)
might award damages.  How many hours of an attorneys time does it take
before the 40GB drive no longer seems like a good deal?

Keep in mind that if 100 companies use the contest winning code and all 100
companies are sued, you will be indemnifying each and every one of them.



{Original Message removed}

2000\12\01@094044 by M. Adam Davis

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I would like to apologize for the misinformation I posted previously.  I
had heard it elsewhere, and either I am paraphrasing it incorrectly, or
the source was incorrect.  In either case, I doubt the Algebra was the
highest math class taught at Harvard only 50 years ago ('a few' = 3 to 4,
so 4*12=48 ~= 50).

In the mid 1600s Lacroix's (french) text book on differential and integral
math was translated by some british folk for their universities.  Harvard,
having been established in the early 1600's, probably would have begun
teaching differential and integral math shortly thereafter.  Algebra was
not well established at that time, but it was more developed than diff.
eq., and so I would presume that they would have been teaching lower
classes in algebra much earlier than the previous century (or this
century, depending on whether you start from 0 or 1 ;-)

However, my point still holds, but I would probably use a different
analogy now, such as the transister and its associated math (which is now
taught in high school for those interested), etc.

-Adam

Interesting math bit found during my research:
... it is said that he [Charles Babbage] sent the following letter to
Alfred, Lord Tennyson about a couplet in "The Vision of Sin":

    Every minute dies a man,
    Every minute one is born

I need hardly point out to you that this calculation would tend to keep
the sum total of the world's population in a state of perpetual equipoise,
whereas it is a well-known fact that the said sum total is constantly on
the increase. I would therefore take the liberty of suggesting that in the
next edition of your excellent poem the erroneous calculation to which I
refer should be corrected as follows:

    Every minute dies a man,
    And one and a sixteenth is born

I may add that the exact figures are 1.167, but something must, of course,
be conceded to the laws of meter.
Charles Babbage and his Calculating Engines

Only an engineer... ;-)

"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
> It was only a few dozen years ago that the highest math class taught at
> Harvard was Algebra.  We now teach algebra to our 12-year olds in school.

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2000\12\01@120906 by Andrew Kunz

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I guess you would think it better for me to give a hard drive away AND get sued
for being so nice?

ROFL!

I guess the alternative would be to develop the code, get yourself a Juno
account, e-mail it to me from that, win the contest, I ship the hard drive to a
PO box owned by John Doe, then delete the Juno account and cancel the PO box.
Right?

Andy










Nicholas Irias <@spam@niriasKILLspamspamPACBELL.NET> on 12/01/2000 08:57:55 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: [PIC]: PIC Hard Drive Contest








The pitfall is the following rule:

11)  The submitter shall indemnify Montana Design, MIT, the PICLIST owner
and moderators, myself, and anybody using the submitted code from any legal
action which results from possible copying of code.  In other words, if you
cheat, you bear the consequences, not us!

What this means is that if someone sues and CLAIMS copyright infringement of
some sort, the contest winner will be ponying up for legal expenses.  Even
if there was no copyright infringement, a jury (especially in California)
might award damages.  How many hours of an attorneys time does it take
before the 40GB drive no longer seems like a good deal?

Keep in mind that if 100 companies use the contest winning code and all 100
companies are sued, you will be indemnifying each and every one of them.



{Original Message removed}

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