Post by thread:[PIC]: PCB Board houses

> The price for PCBs will be about the same for single > or doubled > layered. The reason is that it takes about the same amount > of time to make > a single sided board as it does to make a double sided board. > Some times a > single sided board is more expensive because copper clad > board has copper on > both sides already which means that the board huse has to > remove all of the > copper on one side, this can take a long time. > Really? This doesnt quite have the "ring of truth" to it. I mean.... the entire plated thru process is skipped. And I gotta beleive that single sided stock is cheaper than double sided stock. And as far as longer etching time for double sided stock.... I dont beleive it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

The trick is probably finding a good board house that still caters to the single sided board market and does enough volume to take advantage of the lower cost. I think most board houses saw that the future of single sided boards is dead and went with new equipment and stock that assumes at least double sided. That new equipment is expensive up front, but allows them to crank out boards very cheaply and pass the savings onto you as long as they do enough volume to utilize it fully, It's quicker and easier for them to run a common (2-sided) board through their equipment and processes than to do something out of the ordinary - even if that out of the ordinary something is more simple. Now if you are building the boards yourself, it still holds true that more simple is less costly. --BobG {Original Message removed}

At 03:33 PM 7/30/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Really? This doesnt quite have the "ring of truth" to it. >I mean.... the entire plated thru process is skipped. >And I gotta beleive that single sided stock is cheaper >than double sided stock. It's both true and not true. ;-) Ommmmm... If you go around asking for boards in quantities like 500 or 2,000 pieces from domestic manufacturers you'll see very little price saving unless you are in a country where consumer electronics is made. Then, going for a single-sided punched board on paper-based phenolic can be astoundingly cheap, but there is a tool cost $$$$ to prepare the punch set. There is no drilling, just *whap* in the punch press and the board pops out, including whatever outline you can draw (within reason). They can even punch the outline out and shove it back into the surrounding panel for easy handling. It's all very low-tech, using screen printing, air drying (well, maybe UV curing) etc. Typically these boards are priced per m^2 rather than per in^2 !. There are a few remaining manufacturers who still do this for domestically made appliances and so on, but the tooling cost is very high and they expect big runs. Best regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu

Just my $.02: Have a look at http://www.ExpressPCB.com. They have a nice price for prototype-style PCBs and have free layout software, too. I think it comes to around $20 for each board with their special pricing. Not bad for a few prototype boards. Their software is pretty simple to use, too, and you don't have to worry about Gerber files and such. Just create the PCB and e-mail it to them and you'll have your boards. Just an idea, it worked nicely for me on a few projects. --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

Hi Andrew. Dealing with Gerber is more standardized way being compared with create 'n email custom software made boards. ;) Just imagine if you'll need to send that board to somebody else ;) Regardless what PCB software you are using Gerber translated is must to have. WBR Dmitry. Drew Vassallo wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Just my $.02: > > Have a look at http://www.ExpressPCB.com. They have a nice price for > prototype-style PCBs and have free layout software, too. > > I think it comes to around $20 for each board with their special pricing. > Not bad for a few prototype boards. > > Their software is pretty simple to use, too, and you don't have to worry > about Gerber files and such. Just create the PCB and e-mail it to them and > you'll have your boards. > > Just an idea, it worked nicely for me on a few projects. > > --Andrew > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

The real cost of single sided PCBs is that they are usually larger for a given circuit. Suppose you have a circuit that you can put in a 2" x 1" format with double sided. That's 2 in**2. If I have to make it 2" x 2" to accommodate single side routing, the board area goes to 4 in**2. So if a double sided board is 50% more expensive than a single sided board, you are still losing money. Say the 1 sided board is $0.10/in**2 and the double sided is $0.15/in**2. The boards mentioned would cost $0.30 and $0.40! Of course, if you can punch cheap phenolic, that's fine but that is typically much higher tooling costs. And, if you want to do them yourself, single sided is the way to go. Awhile back I read that single sided boards are not as reliable as double sided because the plated through holes anchor the copper better against things like cracks, vibration, etc. So that's something else to consider. Regards, Al Williams AWC * Floating point A/D: http://www.al-williams.com/awce/pak9.htm -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Going single sided is for 1 reason and that's cost reduction. FR4 is typically more then twice the cost of Phenolic, not 50% higher. Proper circuit and layout analysis must be considered before you even think of going single sided. EMC and the number of jumpers required to route the board will often give you a good indication on the feasibility of doing it single sided. There's no point if a 1 layer board will require twice the area or require so many jumpers the cost of inserting those jumpers and the total number of drill holes equal a double sided board. Some feasibility guidelines i use: .How fast and noisy is the circuit. .Will the layout fit into the maximum allowable outline. .Type of board, carbon ink, silver thru hole or no ink. .Is the minimum drill size 0.60mm or greater. .Will there be a significant reduction of drill holes. .How many thru hole components need to be mounted opposite the SMT side. .How much cost reduction will i really get. A well designed 1 layer board will give me better yield then a double sided board. With proper hole sizing, annular ring, use of elongated pads and teardrops the problems you mentioned will only occur with improperly mounted thru hole parts or during rework. The cost reduction can be very significant for the right product. You need to know what you're getting into and factor in the layout costs which is usually 2.5 to 4 times more. Cheers Terry Heng Design Consultant T3DESIGN Innovative Product Development <italic>Thinking out of the box. </italic> At 12:10 AM 7/31/01 -0500, you wrote: >The real cost of single sided PCBs is that they are usually larger for a >given circuit. > >Suppose you have a circuit that you can put in a 2" x 1" format with double >sided. That's 2 in**2. If I have to make it 2" x 2" to accommodate single >side routing, the board area goes to 4 in**2. > >So if a double sided board is 50% more expensive than a single sided board, >you are still losing money. Say the 1 sided board is $0.10/in**2 and the >double sided is $0.15/in**2. The boards mentioned would cost $0.30 and >$0.40! > >Of course, if you can punch cheap phenolic, that's fine but that is >typically much higher tooling costs. And, if you want to do them yourself, >single sided is the way to go. > >Awhile back I read that single sided boards are not as reliable as double >sided because the plated through holes anchor the copper better against >things like cracks, vibration, etc. So that's something else to consider. {Quote hidden}> >Regards, > > >Al Williams >AWC >* Floating point A/D: http://www.al-williams.com/awce/pak9.htm > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: >[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Ok, fine, so what board houses do people use and recommend? I've had it with Advanced Circuits http://www.4pcb.com (nice guys if you have some volume) and don't want to mess around with the proprietary software of expresspcb http://www.expresspcb.com I don't want to go so far as to order boards from Tstevan in Bulgaria (I'm in the US) although that would make sense in Europe. I'm looking for a prototype house in the midwest (Chicago - Denver - Phoenix - Dallas radius) to keep shipping costs and delays low. Just need bare double sided boards. -- Lawrence Lile {Original Message removed}

>Dealing with Gerber is more standardized way >being compared with create 'n email custom >software made boards. ;) Hehe, I realize this Dmitry :) What I meant, simply, was that if you were doing a hobby project, or a one-time shot of a prototype board and weren't really planning on full production, then their software was a simpler, cheaper (free), and quicker way to go (I think they're only a few days for delivery at a set price of ~$60 for 3 boards). --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Bob Ammerman wrote: > >I've had pretty good success success with APC in Canada. > I'll second that. I believe that the full company name is "AP Circuits". A small test equipment manufacturer that I consult for has been using them exclusively for several years. High quality, fast turnaround, reasonable pricing (particularly for their prototypes) The website is: http://www.apcircuits.com Regards, Bob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

I will third that. Bob Barr wrote: {Quote hidden}> Bob Ammerman wrote: > > > > >I've had pretty good success success with APC in Canada. > > > > I'll second that. I believe that the full company name is "AP Circuits". A > small test equipment manufacturer that I consult for has been using them > exclusively for several years. > > High quality, fast turnaround, reasonable pricing (particularly for their > prototypes) > > The website is: > > http://www.apcircuits.com > > Regards, Bob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Sorry, I sent this reply directly to Lawrence rather than the list. (I really need to watch that 'Reply To:' field more closely.) > >Lawrence Lile wrote: > >Advanced Circuits http://www.4pcb.com Component silkscreen, any shape, 3-day >turn >$118 >1-day turns $418 > > Haven't you forgotten to include the $290 NRE for prototype testing listed on their website? Or is it possible to waive testing and get that charge waived? (Lawrence's reply indicated that it is indeed possible to waive testing.) For production quantities, their $149 tooling NRE and $290 testing NRE could be spread over a large number of boards. For prototype quantities, their $290 NRE pretty much rules them out for me. Regards, Bob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.