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'[PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)'
2004\02\16@041232 by adastra

flavicon
face
I have changed the subject of this post because I think that many people
who may not have been following the original thread will want to weigh
in on this.

I personally think that James' assertion that "No amount of excellent
advice is worth being called an idiot" is simply absurd. Olin is
obviously one of the most valuable and prolific contributors to this
list and certainly has earned a bit of extra grace in my book.

In any case, the supposed cure is far out of balance with the offence.
I seriously doubt that the anonymous OP was psychologically damaged by
the suggestion that his request was idiotic... certainly not to the
extent of needing the list host's "protection."  On the other hand, I
regard the loss of Olin's (mostly) very thoughtful and helpful input as
a very great loss indeed. And you might want to notice that unlike many
the ugly "flame wars" of the past, this was at least PIC related.

I ask James to please reconsider this hasty and unwarranted action.

 Foster


> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@041232 by adastra

flavicon
face
I have changed the subject of this post because I think that many people
who may not have been following the original thread will want to weigh
in on this.

I personally think that James' assertion that "No amount of excellent
advice is worth being called an idiot" is simply absurd. Olin is
obviously one of the most valuable and prolific contributors to this
list and certainly has earned a bit of extra grace in my book.

In any case, the supposed cure is far out of balance with the offence.
I seriously doubt that the anonymous OP was psychologically damaged by
the suggestion that his request was idiotic... certainly not to the
extent of needing the list host's "protection."  On the other hand, I
regard the loss of Olin's (mostly) very thoughtful and helpful input as
a very great loss indeed. And you might want to notice that unlike many
the ugly "flame wars" of the past, this was at least PIC related.

I ask James to please reconsider this hasty and unwarranted action.

 Foster


> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@095824 by Robert Mash

flavicon
face
I agree.
Olin is a very direct person.  Interpret his personality however you choose
to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to react.
This list is about sharing ideas and information, not posturing and
face-saving.
It's not about egos it's about electrons.
Bring Olin back.

Robert Mash

----- Original Message -----
From: "adastra" <spam_OUTfosterTakeThisOuTspamADASTRAN.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@095824 by Robert Mash

flavicon
face
I agree.
Olin is a very direct person.  Interpret his personality however you choose
to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to react.
This list is about sharing ideas and information, not posturing and
face-saving.
It's not about egos it's about electrons.
Bring Olin back.

Robert Mash

----- Original Message -----
From: "adastra" <fosterspamKILLspamADASTRAN.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@100654 by Roy J. Gromlich
picon face
I will have to add my support for Olin - a very direct man who, as the saying
goes, does not suffer fools gladly.  Really people, if you want to see real
flaming go over to USEnet sometime. In the short time I have been reading this
board I have noticed both his abruptness and his insight. I think we can handle
both.

Roy J. Gromlich
Renaissance Technologies


{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@100654 by Roy J. Gromlich

picon face
I will have to add my support for Olin - a very direct man who, as the saying
goes, does not suffer fools gladly.  Really people, if you want to see real
flaming go over to USEnet sometime. In the short time I have been reading this
board I have noticed both his abruptness and his insight. I think we can handle
both.

Roy J. Gromlich
Renaissance Technologies


{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@101109 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
Olin is still alive and well - I received an email from him asking if I
could put up a reply to a post he'd prepared earlier for someone.

Is this the action of a vindictive man ? I think not - he could have just
said "stuff the piclist" but instead wanted to help out someone on the
boost/buck regulator thread.

It would be nice to see him back on the list (thats my vote in) but would he
come back after being deleted even if he was allowed ? He may feel unwanted
or victimised etc and move his knowledge elsewhere.

On the plus side - this conversation has made an otherwise boring day much
more interesting.

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Mash" <RemoveMErmashTakeThisOuTspamGLOBALCOOLING.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> I agree.
> Olin is a very direct person.  Interpret his personality however you
choose
> to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
> extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
> been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
> Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to
react.
{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@101109 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
Olin is still alive and well - I received an email from him asking if I
could put up a reply to a post he'd prepared earlier for someone.

Is this the action of a vindictive man ? I think not - he could have just
said "stuff the piclist" but instead wanted to help out someone on the
boost/buck regulator thread.

It would be nice to see him back on the list (thats my vote in) but would he
come back after being deleted even if he was allowed ? He may feel unwanted
or victimised etc and move his knowledge elsewhere.

On the plus side - this conversation has made an otherwise boring day much
more interesting.

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Mash" <rmashEraseMEspam.....GLOBALCOOLING.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> I agree.
> Olin is a very direct person.  Interpret his personality however you
choose
> to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
> extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
> been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
> Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to
react.
{Quote hidden}

> > > {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@111339 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
> "You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.
-Olin Lathrup, 2004

If you think this particular contribution to this list was not an
extreme lack of etiquette then your version of etiquette is very similar
to Olin's.  This is not the first time he's written this, or a
substantially similar, "you are x, I don't have time for x" replies
where x is usually a degrading insult.

>  ...some bozo was trying to tell us...
-Olin Lathrup, 7/8/2003

Of Olin's prolific contributions to this list a significant percentage
has /no/ value beyond indicating his disdain for the post he was
replying to.  If you truly believe that one should not react to a post
which is offensive then you should also believe Olin should not react to
posts which will cause him to contribute nothing but vitriol.

>  If you're not sure what that means, ask mommy when she comes to check
on you playing with the 'puter. Does mommy know you're on the 'puter again?
-Olin Lathrup, 8/10/2003

Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
information Olin provided.

>  if this were third grade, you would get a gold star sticker now
-Olin Lathrup, 8/15/2003

Doubtless Olin has some specific experience and information which is of
value, but as you can see by looking through the archives the same
questions will be answered even if he's gone.  This information provided
by the members of the list will continue just as well as it has during
Olin's time with us.

>  Please have mommy set up your email so that your messages aren't sent
in those "attachment" thingies.
-Olin Lathrup, 9/12/2003

I neither agree nor disagree with Jame's decision to remove Olin from
the list.  I do agree that Olin has had plenty of time and plenty of
extremely precise warnings, and that James has acted entirely within his
realm of responsability in removing Olin.  There is no reason to keep
Olin on this list when it has been made so excruciatingly clear to him
that this type of posting is not acceptable and yet he still flaunts his
disregard for these warnings and the members of the list.  I understand
that for many cultures and people his actions may pass off as humor,
however there is and must be a baseline for behavior on a list which
cuts across so many cultures.  That line has been drawn, he has been
warned, and he has easily cleared it and then some in his most recent
50-meter sprint.

The only thing Olin has that few others on the list have is, apparently,
copious amounts of free time to provide insulting, useless responses to
messages which he should simply ignore.  I hate to see him go, but he is
obviously unwilling or unable to stop personal attacks and blatantly
condescending remarks.

-Adam

Robert Mash wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@111339 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
> "You're being an idiot, and I don't have time to waste on idiots.
-Olin Lathrup, 2004

If you think this particular contribution to this list was not an
extreme lack of etiquette then your version of etiquette is very similar
to Olin's.  This is not the first time he's written this, or a
substantially similar, "you are x, I don't have time for x" replies
where x is usually a degrading insult.

>  ...some bozo was trying to tell us...
-Olin Lathrup, 7/8/2003

Of Olin's prolific contributions to this list a significant percentage
has /no/ value beyond indicating his disdain for the post he was
replying to.  If you truly believe that one should not react to a post
which is offensive then you should also believe Olin should not react to
posts which will cause him to contribute nothing but vitriol.

>  If you're not sure what that means, ask mommy when she comes to check
on you playing with the 'puter. Does mommy know you're on the 'puter again?
-Olin Lathrup, 8/10/2003

Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
information Olin provided.

>  if this were third grade, you would get a gold star sticker now
-Olin Lathrup, 8/15/2003

Doubtless Olin has some specific experience and information which is of
value, but as you can see by looking through the archives the same
questions will be answered even if he's gone.  This information provided
by the members of the list will continue just as well as it has during
Olin's time with us.

>  Please have mommy set up your email so that your messages aren't sent
in those "attachment" thingies.
-Olin Lathrup, 9/12/2003

I neither agree nor disagree with Jame's decision to remove Olin from
the list.  I do agree that Olin has had plenty of time and plenty of
extremely precise warnings, and that James has acted entirely within his
realm of responsability in removing Olin.  There is no reason to keep
Olin on this list when it has been made so excruciatingly clear to him
that this type of posting is not acceptable and yet he still flaunts his
disregard for these warnings and the members of the list.  I understand
that for many cultures and people his actions may pass off as humor,
however there is and must be a baseline for behavior on a list which
cuts across so many cultures.  That line has been drawn, he has been
warned, and he has easily cleared it and then some in his most recent
50-meter sprint.

The only thing Olin has that few others on the list have is, apparently,
copious amounts of free time to provide insulting, useless responses to
messages which he should simply ignore.  I hate to see him go, but he is
obviously unwilling or unable to stop personal attacks and blatantly
condescending remarks.

-Adam

Robert Mash wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@112829 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
First the guy was asking for someone to decode his hex code and tell him
what was wrong and then after he is chastised for not doing his homework he
replies with ">>>>>I will write my own source level debugger and
>>>>>assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).
>>>>>"

If he has the experience and expertise to do this then why was he asking for
help in the first place. Apparently the person receiving Olin's supposed
abuse was just as culpable.

In this particular case I don't see what the big deal is, Olin was just
giving as he was getting from the guy.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@112829 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
First the guy was asking for someone to decode his hex code and tell him
what was wrong and then after he is chastised for not doing his homework he
replies with ">>>>>I will write my own source level debugger and
>>>>>assembler and release it to the PD after I'm finished).
>>>>>"

If he has the experience and expertise to do this then why was he asking for
help in the first place. Apparently the person receiving Olin's supposed
abuse was just as culpable.

In this particular case I don't see what the big deal is, Olin was just
giving as he was getting from the guy.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@114118 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
> someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
> information Olin provided.

Sure? I am no fan of assembler programming, so I probably have missed
those other assembler programming 'kits'. And I probably missed those
other design-a-serious-programmer experience reports.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\02\16@114118 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
> someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
> information Olin provided.

Sure? I am no fan of assembler programming, so I probably have missed
those other assembler programming 'kits'. And I probably missed those
other design-a-serious-programmer experience reports.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\02\16@115326 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

       I have personally stayed out of this thread mainly since I don't want to
add more noise to the list (and after this post I probably won't post again
in this thread), but these comments deserve response.

       Let me make something very clear here. This was NOT an isolated incident. I
have personally (as an Admin) warned Olin about his behaviour on the list
many times. If you consider just this event then I can understand why some
might believe James is over reacting. But when you consider more of the
history things become a little less clear.

       I frankly would not have put up with Olin as much as I have hadn't it been
for his positive influence on the list. That said, the childish behaviour
sometimes seen is simply not acceptable, in my mind.

       But I'm not the owner of the list, just a lowly Admin, so my opinion isn't
the only say. FWIW we have come very close a few times in the past to doing
what James has done.

       Personally as an admin I have found Olin more work then he was worth. I
will miss some of his contributions, and I won't miss alot of his abusive
responses. That's about all I have to say about that...

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2004\02\16@115326 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

       I have personally stayed out of this thread mainly since I don't want to
add more noise to the list (and after this post I probably won't post again
in this thread), but these comments deserve response.

       Let me make something very clear here. This was NOT an isolated incident. I
have personally (as an Admin) warned Olin about his behaviour on the list
many times. If you consider just this event then I can understand why some
might believe James is over reacting. But when you consider more of the
history things become a little less clear.

       I frankly would not have put up with Olin as much as I have hadn't it been
for his positive influence on the list. That said, the childish behaviour
sometimes seen is simply not acceptable, in my mind.

       But I'm not the owner of the list, just a lowly Admin, so my opinion isn't
the only say. FWIW we have come very close a few times in the past to doing
what James has done.

       Personally as an admin I have found Olin more work then he was worth. I
will miss some of his contributions, and I won't miss alot of his abusive
responses. That's about all I have to say about that...

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2004\02\16@130138 by Chuck Busch

picon face
Well said.

If Olin ever got his head straightened out he would indeed be a "valuable"
resource.  The most hilarious thing I have seen him post was the want ad for
a junior engineer.  Talk about a "dream" job. Wonder why there was a
vacancy?

Maybe sombody like Ken Pergola could "pre-screen" has responses?

As with all things in life, if Olin disappeared there would be others that
would fill the void, perhaps even filling it in a better way,

Chuck


----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Adam Davis" <spamBeGoneadampicSTOPspamspamEraseMEUBASICS.COM>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

again?
{Quote hidden}

choose
> >to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
> >extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
> >been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
> >Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to
react.
{Quote hidden}

> >>>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@130138 by Chuck Busch

picon face
Well said.

If Olin ever got his head straightened out he would indeed be a "valuable"
resource.  The most hilarious thing I have seen him post was the want ad for
a junior engineer.  Talk about a "dream" job. Wonder why there was a
vacancy?

Maybe sombody like Ken Pergola could "pre-screen" has responses?

As with all things in life, if Olin disappeared there would be others that
would fill the void, perhaps even filling it in a better way,

Chuck


----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Adam Davis" <spamBeGoneadampicspamKILLspamUBASICS.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

again?
{Quote hidden}

choose
> >to, but I don't think his contributions are lacking in ettiquette in any
> >extreme manner.  There's been no swearing and screaming here.  There have
> >been no inbox-filling back and forth exchanges...
> >Folks, if you percieve a person's comments as rude, you don't have to
react.
{Quote hidden}

> >>>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@134217 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
> someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
> information Olin provided.

maybe, in straight postings to the list, but the development environment
that he has contributed is far beyond what I have seen from anyone else on
the Piclist. I may have missed others that do happen to be as good, and if
so would be happy to have it pointed out to me.

However myself, Jan-Erik, and Olin, possibly others as well, have all used
this environment as a way to get people into modular assembly programming,
by recommending that they look into it as a template of how to do macros,
linkable modules and scripts, and also as a straight structured system of
doing assembly language programming. I can claim a reasonable dose of kudos
for getting Olin to publish it, as he originally put up only parts of it,
and finally put up the whole lot after private promptings from me when I
found certain files were missing as I tried to work my way through it, to
get a project underway. Since then he has revised it several times to
support more processors, and allow cross assembly of modules between 16
series and 18 series architectures, with minimal changes in source code.

While I support James in his thankless task of attempting to keep a world
wide 24/7 operation on a seemly course, I do hope that time will allow Olin
to cool off, and come back at some stage. I just hope he does not take down
his development environment pages in a fit of pique.

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2004\02\16@134217 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Of nearly /every/ useful and informative post that Olin has made,
> someone else has been able to contribute or elaborate on the same
> information Olin provided.

maybe, in straight postings to the list, but the development environment
that he has contributed is far beyond what I have seen from anyone else on
the Piclist. I may have missed others that do happen to be as good, and if
so would be happy to have it pointed out to me.

However myself, Jan-Erik, and Olin, possibly others as well, have all used
this environment as a way to get people into modular assembly programming,
by recommending that they look into it as a template of how to do macros,
linkable modules and scripts, and also as a straight structured system of
doing assembly language programming. I can claim a reasonable dose of kudos
for getting Olin to publish it, as he originally put up only parts of it,
and finally put up the whole lot after private promptings from me when I
found certain files were missing as I tried to work my way through it, to
get a project underway. Since then he has revised it several times to
support more processors, and allow cross assembly of modules between 16
series and 18 series architectures, with minimal changes in source code.

While I support James in his thankless task of attempting to keep a world
wide 24/7 operation on a seemly course, I do hope that time will allow Olin
to cool off, and come back at some stage. I just hope he does not take down
his development environment pages in a fit of pique.

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2004\02\16@135706 by Roland

flavicon
face
Wow, can I have a bash too, since this seems to be becomming the longest
thread.

When I first read No Religion's post I had to do a mental check that it was
not the 1'st april, and again at Olins post. It should have evoked minimal
response, a little knock on the road.

This age of political correctness is really turning humanity into
jellyfish. The response on this thread seems to align with the mentality
that got Janet Jackson more coverage than twin towers.

I vote Olin in, and hopefully members don't start suing each other.



At 02:11 AM 16/02/04 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@135706 by Roland

flavicon
face
Wow, can I have a bash too, since this seems to be becomming the longest
thread.

When I first read No Religion's post I had to do a mental check that it was
not the 1'st april, and again at Olins post. It should have evoked minimal
response, a little knock on the road.

This age of political correctness is really turning humanity into
jellyfish. The response on this thread seems to align with the mentality
that got Janet Jackson more coverage than twin towers.

I vote Olin in, and hopefully members don't start suing each other.



At 02:11 AM 16/02/04 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@164203 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
ROFLMFAO

I missed that one somehow.


>  Please have mommy set up your email so that your messages aren't sent
in those "attachment" thingies.
-Olin Lathrup, 9/12/2003

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2004\02\16@164203 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
ROFLMFAO

I missed that one somehow.


>  Please have mommy set up your email so that your messages aren't sent
in those "attachment" thingies.
-Olin Lathrup, 9/12/2003

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2004\02\17@032835 by Al Shinn

picon face
Well, if this is a vote?? I vote Olin back on the list.



<Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:11:11 -0700
<From:    adastra <.....fosterspamRemoveMEADASTRAN.COM>
<Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted!  (was insuccesses)
<.....

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2004\02\17@032835 by Al Shinn

picon face
Well, if this is a vote?? I vote Olin back on the list.



<Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:11:11 -0700
<From:    adastra <RemoveMEfosterspamspamBeGoneADASTRAN.COM>
<Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted!  (was insuccesses)
<.....

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