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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)'
2004\02\16@104015 by Andrew Kieran

picon face
James,
I hope that you re-visit your decision to remove Olin.  It is
your decision to make, but it does seem to run counter to the
best interests of the list.  He is part of what makes this list
such a valuable resource.

Olin is an extremely valuable contributor to the list, measured
not just in the volume of his posts, but by the depth of his
knowledge and by his oft-demonstrated willingness to help
others.

Moreover, the post which triggered his ire was pretty
unreasonable.  It asked list-members to do grunt work that the
poster appeared to feel was beneath him.  Please don't 'cut off
your nose, to spite your face'.

I hope that cooler heads will prevail.

Andrew

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2004\02\16@104015 by Andrew Kieran

picon face
James,
I hope that you re-visit your decision to remove Olin.  It is
your decision to make, but it does seem to run counter to the
best interests of the list.  He is part of what makes this list
such a valuable resource.

Olin is an extremely valuable contributor to the list, measured
not just in the volume of his posts, but by the depth of his
knowledge and by his oft-demonstrated willingness to help
others.

Moreover, the post which triggered his ire was pretty
unreasonable.  It asked list-members to do grunt work that the
poster appeared to feel was beneath him.  Please don't 'cut off
your nose, to spite your face'.

I hope that cooler heads will prevail.

Andrew

________________________________________________
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2004\02\16@105639 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
Perhaps, what is needed IS the abuse of those too lazy to do even the
smallest amount of self help before asking the list to do all of their grunt
work for them.

If every time some idiot spewed forth: "Please tell me everything you have
learned about pic's in the last 10 years so I then know what question to ask
you so I can get you to do my project for me", someone slammed him good for
being a lazy dumb**** then perhaps the quantity of those types of
questions/requests would decline.

This is a problem which is not limited to the piclist but to most forums.
There should be a idiot filter where the person asking the question or
making a request should have to demonstrate at least some minimal trying to
solve the problem on his/her own.

I have been reading the list for several years, and have benefited greatly
from Olin's posts. By removing him from the list does nothing to solve the
problem of the idiots, it only removes a valuable source of information from
those who truly appreciate the list. The one who SHOULD have been removed
was the idiot that ilicited Olin's response which in my opinion was mild and
could have and should have been much worse.

Jeff

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@105639 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
Perhaps, what is needed IS the abuse of those too lazy to do even the
smallest amount of self help before asking the list to do all of their grunt
work for them.

If every time some idiot spewed forth: "Please tell me everything you have
learned about pic's in the last 10 years so I then know what question to ask
you so I can get you to do my project for me", someone slammed him good for
being a lazy dumb**** then perhaps the quantity of those types of
questions/requests would decline.

This is a problem which is not limited to the piclist but to most forums.
There should be a idiot filter where the person asking the question or
making a request should have to demonstrate at least some minimal trying to
solve the problem on his/her own.

I have been reading the list for several years, and have benefited greatly
from Olin's posts. By removing him from the list does nothing to solve the
problem of the idiots, it only removes a valuable source of information from
those who truly appreciate the list. The one who SHOULD have been removed
was the idiot that ilicited Olin's response which in my opinion was mild and
could have and should have been much worse.

Jeff

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@105847 by Floret Morgenstern

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face
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: James Newton, Host <spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamPICLIST.COM>
An: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Gesendet: Montag, 16. Februar 2004 04:43
Betreff: FW: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> Olin has been deleted from the PICList.
>
> No amount of excellent advice is worth being called an idiot.
>
>
> ---
> James.

Although Olin was right in the point that posting Hex code is somehow
ridiculous, he of course expressed himself too unkindly.
So he deserved a punishment.
But I think the time Olin wasn't on the list is already enough, exspecially
according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the list!

MfG,
Do.Pe.

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2004\02\16@105847 by Floret Morgenstern

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face
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: James Newton, Host <jamesnewtonspamKILLspamPICLIST.COM>
An: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Gesendet: Montag, 16. Februar 2004 04:43
Betreff: FW: [PIC]: PIC18F8720 insuccesses


> Olin has been deleted from the PICList.
>
> No amount of excellent advice is worth being called an idiot.
>
>
> ---
> James.

Although Olin was right in the point that posting Hex code is somehow
ridiculous, he of course expressed himself too unkindly.
So he deserved a punishment.
But I think the time Olin wasn't on the list is already enough, exspecially
according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the list!

MfG,
Do.Pe.

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2004\02\16@110506 by fred jones

picon face
>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
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2004\02\16@110506 by fred jones

picon face
>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
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2004\02\16@111130 by Floret Morgenstern

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face
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: fred jones <EraseMEboattowspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTHOTMAIL.COM>
An: <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Gesendet: Montag, 16. Februar 2004 17:03
Betreff: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

Well, at this point it would be interesting to call a vote...
something like:

Subject: [PIC]: Olin YES    for Olin

or

Subject: [PIC]: Olin NO    against Olin...


MfG,
Do.Pe.

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2004\02\16@111130 by Floret Morgenstern

flavicon
face
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: fred jones <@spam@boattowKILLspamspamHOTMAIL.COM>
An: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Gesendet: Montag, 16. Februar 2004 17:03
Betreff: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

Well, at this point it would be interesting to call a vote...
something like:

Subject: [PIC]: Olin YES    for Olin

or

Subject: [PIC]: Olin NO    against Olin...


MfG,
Do.Pe.

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2004\02\16@111337 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:04 AM
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/

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2004\02\16@111337 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:04 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/

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2004\02\16@112207 by D. Jay Newman

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face
> Well, at this point it would be interesting to call a vote...
> something like:

As James pointed out, this list is *not* a democracy. I may disagree
with his decision on this exact point, but had the circumstances
been slightly different I would have agreed (it was the hex-code thing
that pushed me onto Olin's side).

The list moderator has a responsibility. Unless you've moderated a list,
you don't know how much work it is.

Frankly, this is my last comment on the subject. The list-moderator made
a decision, and unless you want to start a new list of your own, then we
must abide by James' choice.
--
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jayEraseMEspam.....sprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@112207 by D. Jay Newman

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face
> Well, at this point it would be interesting to call a vote...
> something like:

As James pointed out, this list is *not* a democracy. I may disagree
with his decision on this exact point, but had the circumstances
been slightly different I would have agreed (it was the hex-code thing
that pushed me onto Olin's side).

The list moderator has a responsibility. Unless you've moderated a list,
you don't know how much work it is.

Frankly, this is my last comment on the subject. The list-moderator made
a decision, and unless you want to start a new list of your own, then we
must abide by James' choice.
--
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EraseMEjayspamsprucegrove.com     ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !

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2004\02\16@112832 by Jeff LeBlanc

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face
It is not a democracy this is true, but I see more value in keeping the
Olin's of the world and little value in stupid questions. Yes they are
newbies, but just as people say that people such as Olin have a
responsibility to be more patient with beginners, the beginners need to be
more responsible in forming questions that will 1) show that they are at
least trying to solve their own problem and 2) show that they are not trying
to get the list to do their whole project.

If Mr. smarty pants that posted the hex code would have asked what format
would be best for getting help first he might have received a better
response from Olin.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@112832 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
It is not a democracy this is true, but I see more value in keeping the
Olin's of the world and little value in stupid questions. Yes they are
newbies, but just as people say that people such as Olin have a
responsibility to be more patient with beginners, the beginners need to be
more responsible in forming questions that will 1) show that they are at
least trying to solve their own problem and 2) show that they are not trying
to get the list to do their whole project.

If Mr. smarty pants that posted the hex code would have asked what format
would be best for getting help first he might have received a better
response from Olin.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@113040 by fred jones

picon face
WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

My point is that most of you haven't felt the wrath of Olin as I have.  My
first post here when I joined 4 years ago was a slam by Olin telling me I
was stupid.  Let him treat you that way and then lets see how you feel about
keeping him around.  That's why I've pretty much been nothing but a lurker
here...my first experience was a really bad one.

Now, I haven't spell checked this so go ahead and find some more to make fun
of.
FJ
=============================

If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@113040 by fred jones

picon face
WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

My point is that most of you haven't felt the wrath of Olin as I have.  My
first post here when I joined 4 years ago was a slam by Olin telling me I
was stupid.  Let him treat you that way and then lets see how you feel about
keeping him around.  That's why I've pretty much been nothing but a lurker
here...my first experience was a really bad one.

Now, I haven't spell checked this so go ahead and find some more to make fun
of.
FJ
=============================

If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@113454 by Jeff LeBlanc

flavicon
face
Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:30 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

My point is that most of you haven't felt the wrath of Olin as I have.  My
first post here when I joined 4 years ago was a slam by Olin telling me I
was stupid.  Let him treat you that way and then lets see how you feel about
keeping him around.  That's why I've pretty much been nothing but a lurker
here...my first experience was a really bad one.

Now, I haven't spell checked this so go ahead and find some more to make fun
of.
FJ
=============================

If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:04 AM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
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2004\02\16@113454 by Jeff LeBlanc

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face
Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:30 AM
To: PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

My point is that most of you haven't felt the wrath of Olin as I have.  My
first post here when I joined 4 years ago was a slam by Olin telling me I
was stupid.  Let him treat you that way and then lets see how you feel about
keeping him around.  That's why I've pretty much been nothing but a lurker
here...my first experience was a really bad one.

Now, I haven't spell checked this so go ahead and find some more to make fun
of.
FJ
=============================

If he can't speake for you can he speak for you?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [spamBeGonePICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On
Behalf Of fred jones
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:04 AM
To: KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)

>exspecially according to the fact, that everybody want's him back on the
>list!
>
>MfG,
>Do.Pe.
==============================================

Please don't speake for me!
FJ

_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
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2004\02\16@114530 by fred jones

picon face
No Problem :0)  I think this thread hits home for me.  I have a personal
email from Olin in my archive that makes this personal for me.  Even after
his treatment to me its not a black or white decision for me as to whether
he should stay or go.  I'm glad it's not my decision!  If you look at a lot
of Olin's posts, while he does truly have some valuable answers you'll see
that many of them are really of no value and I wonder why he even took the
time to write it.  I finally came to the conclusion that everytime he posts,
he is also advertising.
FJ
======================
Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@114530 by fred jones

picon face
No Problem :0)  I think this thread hits home for me.  I have a personal
email from Olin in my archive that makes this personal for me.  Even after
his treatment to me its not a black or white decision for me as to whether
he should stay or go.  I'm glad it's not my decision!  If you look at a lot
of Olin's posts, while he does truly have some valuable answers you'll see
that many of them are really of no value and I wonder why he even took the
time to write it.  I finally came to the conclusion that everytime he posts,
he is also advertising.
FJ
======================
Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@115949 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred jones" <EraseMEboattowspamEraseMEHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

Possibly, probably and maybe ;-)

I think whats happening here is that we have lost a member of our
"community". While Olin isnt the most popular member of the piclist, he is a
member of the "piclist community". He has been known to offer useful advice
and has even showed that he has a sense of humour occasionally. I've got to
know quite a few people from the list and the loss of any member (sarcastic
or not) is a little like losing touch with a friend.

Dont get me wrong here, Olin does appear to snap very easily and can be
quite sharp on people. When I first joined the list I made a couple of
suggestions and got some sharp replies from Olin. I didnt however take them
the wrong way and most of the things he has a go about do have reason behind
them (even if the presentation of the answer is in a less than savoury
manner).

I "work" from home. I look after a child with ADHD (while he's not at
school) while my partner goes out and earns the breadcrumbs which gives me
the chance to design and learn. My "friends and colleagues" during this time
are you guys on the Piclist and a performance car discussion forum which has
members who would make Olin look like an angel and arguments that would
probably incline James Newton to close the list down altogether.

While there is no need to pick on people and be deliberately nasty to them,
Olin has expressed his honest opinion on the original post. I read that post
before Olin replied to it and I had a very similar reaction (I just didnt
post it).

James has said before - "When I joined, the list had 1500
members. When Olin joined, it had 2000 members. We are now at around
1400." - how many of those users are actively contributing to the discussion
list for technical help. I see the same names over and over helping out -
Wouter, William Chops Westfield, Tony Nixon, Olin, Sphero, Russell and many
others (sorry if I left your name out) - all of who contribute useful
information for newbies and professionals alike. I try and help where I see
a question that I can answer but I would say that 5% of the piclist members
contribute to 95% of the answers given to the questions asked.

Its a bit like being back at school - theres always a couple of kids who are
decent people but just dont have the personal skills to get their point
across diplomatically. Olin is not a bully, he is not vindictive he just
falls into the category of "take it with a pinch of salt". If he is not a
member of the piclist then I have no doubts that at some point in time
someone else will step into his shoes and reply to posts with "please dont
post in HTML" or "outlook express is crap" or "what a stupid question". At
least with Olin at the front door acting as the Piclist "Bulldog" we know
what we're dealing with - better the devil you know ;-)

Anyway - another rant over - if you've got this far in reading this post
then you're doing well. No disrespect to James for kicking Olin - you have
to draw the line somewhere and I've seen James be more than patient with
many people on here but I do think that Olin should be reinvited back after
a cooling off period. I'm sure Olin will also read all the posts related to
his "dismissal" and hope that he will take some of the comments onboard.

Dom

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2004\02\16@115949 by Dominic Stratten

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred jones" <spamBeGoneboattowspamKILLspamHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> WOW, this is really going to turn juvinile isn't it?

Possibly, probably and maybe ;-)

I think whats happening here is that we have lost a member of our
"community". While Olin isnt the most popular member of the piclist, he is a
member of the "piclist community". He has been known to offer useful advice
and has even showed that he has a sense of humour occasionally. I've got to
know quite a few people from the list and the loss of any member (sarcastic
or not) is a little like losing touch with a friend.

Dont get me wrong here, Olin does appear to snap very easily and can be
quite sharp on people. When I first joined the list I made a couple of
suggestions and got some sharp replies from Olin. I didnt however take them
the wrong way and most of the things he has a go about do have reason behind
them (even if the presentation of the answer is in a less than savoury
manner).

I "work" from home. I look after a child with ADHD (while he's not at
school) while my partner goes out and earns the breadcrumbs which gives me
the chance to design and learn. My "friends and colleagues" during this time
are you guys on the Piclist and a performance car discussion forum which has
members who would make Olin look like an angel and arguments that would
probably incline James Newton to close the list down altogether.

While there is no need to pick on people and be deliberately nasty to them,
Olin has expressed his honest opinion on the original post. I read that post
before Olin replied to it and I had a very similar reaction (I just didnt
post it).

James has said before - "When I joined, the list had 1500
members. When Olin joined, it had 2000 members. We are now at around
1400." - how many of those users are actively contributing to the discussion
list for technical help. I see the same names over and over helping out -
Wouter, William Chops Westfield, Tony Nixon, Olin, Sphero, Russell and many
others (sorry if I left your name out) - all of who contribute useful
information for newbies and professionals alike. I try and help where I see
a question that I can answer but I would say that 5% of the piclist members
contribute to 95% of the answers given to the questions asked.

Its a bit like being back at school - theres always a couple of kids who are
decent people but just dont have the personal skills to get their point
across diplomatically. Olin is not a bully, he is not vindictive he just
falls into the category of "take it with a pinch of salt". If he is not a
member of the piclist then I have no doubts that at some point in time
someone else will step into his shoes and reply to posts with "please dont
post in HTML" or "outlook express is crap" or "what a stupid question". At
least with Olin at the front door acting as the Piclist "Bulldog" we know
what we're dealing with - better the devil you know ;-)

Anyway - another rant over - if you've got this far in reading this post
then you're doing well. No disrespect to James for kicking Olin - you have
to draw the line somewhere and I've seen James be more than patient with
many people on here but I do think that Olin should be reinvited back after
a cooling off period. I'm sure Olin will also read all the posts related to
his "dismissal" and hope that he will take some of the comments onboard.

Dom

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2004\02\16@130724 by Pedro Drummond

flavicon
face
I have seen many surprising responses here. People that say "he may be
unkind, but he knows a lot". I think such things as "ok, laugh at me, swear
at me, but please enlighten me with your infinite knowledge" deserve pity.

I expect to meet polite people here.


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@130724 by Pedro Drummond

flavicon
face
I have seen many surprising responses here. People that say "he may be
unkind, but he knows a lot". I think such things as "ok, laugh at me, swear
at me, but please enlighten me with your infinite knowledge" deserve pity.

I expect to meet polite people here.


{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@131928 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 03:47 PM 2/16/2004 -0300, Pedro Drummond wrote:

>I have seen many surprising responses here. People that say "he may be
>unkind, but he knows a lot". I think such things as "ok, laugh at me, swear at me, but please enlighten me with your infinite knowledge" deserve pity.

We could get Olin a DI's hat, with PICLIST on it..

OK MAGGOT, Your momma could write better code than that!

Olin, The R Lee Ermey of the Piclist.

:)

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2004\02\16@131928 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 03:47 PM 2/16/2004 -0300, Pedro Drummond wrote:

>I have seen many surprising responses here. People that say "he may be
>unkind, but he knows a lot". I think such things as "ok, laugh at me, swear at me, but please enlighten me with your infinite knowledge" deserve pity.

We could get Olin a DI's hat, with PICLIST on it..

OK MAGGOT, Your momma could write better code than that!

Olin, The R Lee Ermey of the Piclist.

:)

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2004\02\16@133347 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I expect to meet polite people here.

Welcome to the big bad world.

I expect to meet the occasional knowledgeable people (the piclist has a
far-above-average share of them), if they are polite too that is a plus
(piclist has about the average, much better than most usenet
discussions). But polite people who are not knowledgeable won't be much
of a help (dunno about the piclist share, I guess those people are quiet
most of the time).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\02\16@133347 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I expect to meet polite people here.

Welcome to the big bad world.

I expect to meet the occasional knowledgeable people (the piclist has a
far-above-average share of them), if they are polite too that is a plus
(piclist has about the average, much better than most usenet
discussions). But polite people who are not knowledgeable won't be much
of a help (dunno about the piclist share, I guess those people are quiet
most of the time).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2004\02\16@134218 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

Unfortunately this sort of action is what starts many of these "flame wars".

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2004\02\16@134218 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Easy FJ, I wuz just funning with you

Unfortunately this sort of action is what starts many of these "flame wars".

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2004\02\16@142610 by Yaman Salahi

flavicon
face
It's like eliminating the police force if they incorrectly arrest
someone...

Andrew Kieran wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@142610 by Yaman Salahi

flavicon
face
It's like eliminating the police force if they incorrectly arrest
someone...

Andrew Kieran wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@170735 by ed_b_pes

flavicon
face
I, too, am mostly a lurker because I don't want to get into a useless thread
defending every comment I make (and I won't on this thread either).  Usually
the defense was in response to Olin, who had either misunderstood or grabbed
something I said out of context.  I think Olin has a good head on his
shoulders and makes valid comments, but his abusiveness is really
inexcusable.

Of course I will miss him - he was amusing when some other poor sap was
getting rebuffed.  However, if Olin didn't want to waste his time answering
someone, then why did he?  Wouldn't it be easier not to answer than to write
a tirade explaining why you weren't going to answer?  Was it because he
doesn't have a dog to kick?  It seems to me Olin went out of his way too
many times to answer abusively, when he could have simply said nothing.
MTCW

Ed

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@170735 by ed_b_pes

flavicon
face
I, too, am mostly a lurker because I don't want to get into a useless thread
defending every comment I make (and I won't on this thread either).  Usually
the defense was in response to Olin, who had either misunderstood or grabbed
something I said out of context.  I think Olin has a good head on his
shoulders and makes valid comments, but his abusiveness is really
inexcusable.

Of course I will miss him - he was amusing when some other poor sap was
getting rebuffed.  However, if Olin didn't want to waste his time answering
someone, then why did he?  Wouldn't it be easier not to answer than to write
a tirade explaining why you weren't going to answer?  Was it because he
doesn't have a dog to kick?  It seems to me Olin went out of his way too
many times to answer abusively, when he could have simply said nothing.
MTCW

Ed

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@172639 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
no it would be more like asking them to drop the charges when reasonable
circumstances are found. Nobody here is argueing that James isnt doing an
excellent job, just that most believe that Olin's 'reactions' arent worth
booting him for.

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[TakeThisOuTPICLIST.....spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Yaman Salahi
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 6:23 AM
To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


It's like eliminating the police force if they incorrectly arrest
someone...

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2004\02\16@172639 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
no it would be more like asking them to drop the charges when reasonable
circumstances are found. Nobody here is argueing that James isnt doing an
excellent job, just that most believe that Olin's 'reactions' arent worth
booting him for.

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Yaman Salahi
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 6:23 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


It's like eliminating the police force if they incorrectly arrest
someone...

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2004\02\16@172848 by Carlos Marcano

flavicon
face
Guys, please!


   Let me tell you something: When I subscribed to the list ( about 1 or
two or three years ago, I can´t remember) I was trying to make a "stupid"
toy, a little magnet that levitates a metal ball in the air. I, in my
"stupid" mind, thought that I needed to use a pic with an ellaborated PID
controller, ADC´s, DAC´s, infrared sensors and thousands of of other things
to get this working. I wrote a little post to the list asking about PID
controllers on pics, first. I got nice but uselles (no offense, just talking
in practical terms) advices from some people and some rude but really good
and practical tips from Olin, who made me see I was "stupidily" doing
something in the complete wrong way, that with just a LDR, an ompamp and a
few more junk box components I could built my thing. Results: I built my
toy, it works great and makes me feel like an electronics genious when I
show it to my friends. Whats the lesson from the story? I, as a newbie, was
confused. I was approaching the problem in the completely wrong (or too
hard) way. I asked. I got answers. I got rude answers from Olin, but I took
it like a lesson, beacause I am already a big guy who cant be made feel bad
enough too stop using pics because someone said I was wrong about what I was
doing. After that experience, whenever i post I think very well what Im
going to write and try my best to do it clearly and after trying by myself
to investigate and do my own work. That is a life lesson!

Regards,

*Carlos*
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2004\02\16@172848 by Carlos Marcano

flavicon
face
Guys, please!


   Let me tell you something: When I subscribed to the list ( about 1 or
two or three years ago, I can´t remember) I was trying to make a "stupid"
toy, a little magnet that levitates a metal ball in the air. I, in my
"stupid" mind, thought that I needed to use a pic with an ellaborated PID
controller, ADC´s, DAC´s, infrared sensors and thousands of of other things
to get this working. I wrote a little post to the list asking about PID
controllers on pics, first. I got nice but uselles (no offense, just talking
in practical terms) advices from some people and some rude but really good
and practical tips from Olin, who made me see I was "stupidily" doing
something in the complete wrong way, that with just a LDR, an ompamp and a
few more junk box components I could built my thing. Results: I built my
toy, it works great and makes me feel like an electronics genious when I
show it to my friends. Whats the lesson from the story? I, as a newbie, was
confused. I was approaching the problem in the completely wrong (or too
hard) way. I asked. I got answers. I got rude answers from Olin, but I took
it like a lesson, beacause I am already a big guy who cant be made feel bad
enough too stop using pics because someone said I was wrong about what I was
doing. After that experience, whenever i post I think very well what Im
going to write and try my best to do it clearly and after trying by myself
to investigate and do my own work. That is a life lesson!

Regards,

*Carlos*
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.581 / Virus Database: 368 - Release Date: 09/02/04

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2004\02\16@211918 by Richard Graziano

picon face
Courtesy is not something to expect.  Courtesy is something to practice,
which includes tolerance of discourteous behavior.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@211918 by Richard Graziano

picon face
Courtesy is not something to expect.  Courtesy is something to practice,
which includes tolerance of discourteous behavior.

{Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@212748 by Richard Graziano

picon face
So What!
----- Original Message -----
From: "ed_b_pes" <spamBeGoneed_b_pes@spam@spamspam_OUTSWBELL.NET>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> I, too, am mostly a lurker because I don't want to get into a useless
thread
> defending every comment I make (and I won't on this thread either).
Usually
> the defense was in response to Olin, who had either misunderstood or
grabbed
> something I said out of context.  I think Olin has a good head on his
> shoulders and makes valid comments, but his abusiveness is really
> inexcusable.
>
> Of course I will miss him - he was amusing when some other poor sap was
> getting rebuffed.  However, if Olin didn't want to waste his time
answering
> someone, then why did he?  Wouldn't it be easier not to answer than to
write
> a tirade explaining why you weren't going to answer?  Was it because he
> doesn't have a dog to kick?  It seems to me Olin went out of his way too
> many times to answer abusively, when he could have simply said nothing.
> MTCW
>
> Ed
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@212748 by Richard Graziano

picon face
So What!
----- Original Message -----
From: "ed_b_pes" <ed_b_pesEraseMEspamSWBELL.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> I, too, am mostly a lurker because I don't want to get into a useless
thread
> defending every comment I make (and I won't on this thread either).
Usually
> the defense was in response to Olin, who had either misunderstood or
grabbed
> something I said out of context.  I think Olin has a good head on his
> shoulders and makes valid comments, but his abusiveness is really
> inexcusable.
>
> Of course I will miss him - he was amusing when some other poor sap was
> getting rebuffed.  However, if Olin didn't want to waste his time
answering
> someone, then why did he?  Wouldn't it be easier not to answer than to
write
> a tirade explaining why you weren't going to answer?  Was it because he
> doesn't have a dog to kick?  It seems to me Olin went out of his way too
> many times to answer abusively, when he could have simply said nothing.
> MTCW
>
> Ed
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@213410 by Richard Graziano

picon face
The other side of that issue is the punitive reaction in the extreme.  If
someone calls me stupid or anything else it's their opinion, and if I get
all hot about it maybe I'm giving a modicum of credence to their viewpoint.
I wonder if anyone here has never been insulted.  I for one do not draw my
six-guns when someone insults me because I would have to be the absolute
fastest gun around and I would be on the defense all the time. I just chill
out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Johnson" <@spam@piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEOUTEREDGE.NET>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> no it would be more like asking them to drop the charges when reasonable
> circumstances are found. Nobody here is argueing that James isnt doing an
> excellent job, just that most believe that Olin's 'reactions' arent worth
> booting him for.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@213410 by Richard Graziano
picon face
The other side of that issue is the punitive reaction in the extreme.  If
someone calls me stupid or anything else it's their opinion, and if I get
all hot about it maybe I'm giving a modicum of credence to their viewpoint.
I wonder if anyone here has never been insulted.  I for one do not draw my
six-guns when someone insults me because I would have to be the absolute
fastest gun around and I would be on the defense all the time. I just chill
out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Johnson" <@spam@piclistspam_OUTspam.....OUTEREDGE.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> no it would be more like asking them to drop the charges when reasonable
> circumstances are found. Nobody here is argueing that James isnt doing an
> excellent job, just that most believe that Olin's 'reactions' arent worth
> booting him for.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\16@214825 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
reply posted with [OT:]tag

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Richard Graziano
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 1:33 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


The other side of that issue is the punitive reaction in the extreme.  If
someone calls me stupid or anything else it's their opinion, and if I get
all hot about it maybe I'm giving a modicum of credence to their viewpoint.
I wonder if anyone here has never been insulted.  I for one do not draw my
six-guns when someone insults me because I would have to be the absolute
fastest gun around and I would be on the defense all the time. I just chill
out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Johnson" <.....piclist@spam@spamEraseMEOUTEREDGE.NET>
To: <.....PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\16@214825 by Jonathan Johnson

flavicon
face
reply posted with [OT:]tag

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Richard Graziano
Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2004 1:33 PM
To: spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


The other side of that issue is the punitive reaction in the extreme.  If
someone calls me stupid or anything else it's their opinion, and if I get
all hot about it maybe I'm giving a modicum of credence to their viewpoint.
I wonder if anyone here has never been insulted.  I for one do not draw my
six-guns when someone insults me because I would have to be the absolute
fastest gun around and I would be on the defense all the time. I just chill
out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Johnson" <piclistspam_OUTspam@spam@OUTEREDGE.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\17@133728 by Anno, Jeff

flavicon
face
I Need some help with my Pic code (Shown Below).
I am fairly new so any help would be appreciated.
I know that Olin always wanted Commented Code...

LIST P=16F628, R=DEC    ; Use the PIC16F628 and decimal system
#include "P16F628.INC"  ; Include header file
 __config  _HS_OSC & _LVP_OFF & _WDT_OFF & _PWRTE_ON & _BODEN_ON

 CBLOCK 0x20   ; Declare variable addresses starting at 0x20
   Olin        ; Piclister who was VERY willing to help but a little too
rough
   Anger       ; Unit to measure Olin's Attitude
   James           ; Moderator who has the RIGHT to Moderate
   Me      ; Entertained by wasting time reading Olin messages in [PIC]
   NewTopic    ; Flag cleared when people stop talking about Olin
   Apology     ; Issued to people who wanted to move the Olin Discussion to
[OT]
 ENDC
       ORG 0               ; start at location 0
       goto main           ; jump over to main routine

main:
      btfsc Anger             ; If Olin's Anger Level is not = 0 then
      call KeepOlin           ; Keep Olin in list
      decfsz Anger, W           ; Remove some of Olin's Anger
        Movwf Olin
        Movf Me, W
      subwf Olin, W
      btfsc STATUS, Z         ; Am I as Angry as Olin?
      goto RemoveMeToo          ; Then Maybe I need to go too
      decfsz Olin, 1            ; Remove Olin's from Piclist
        btfsc NewTopic        ; skip if same [OT] posts about Olin appear
in [PIC]
      goto main               ; Continue Reading Piclist when Topic Changes
        goto WasteTime

RemoveMeToo:
       decfsz Me,W                      ; Decrement Me from List
       goto RemoveMeToo

KeepOlin:
       ;No Code Needed Here (James > Olin)

WasteTime:
       movlw D'1'
       addwf Apology,1           ; Apology keeps growing the longer it runs
       goto WasteTime
END

-Jeff

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2004\02\17@165146 by DJMurray

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face
I respectfully disagree with you, Andrew!!

The PIC list is an EXTREMELY valuable resource to me and, I'm sure it is
to most of the rest of the members.  It didn't take me long after
joining the list to realize that Olin's wrath awaited anyone who he
thought was an "idiot" - sometimes strictly because the way a member's
post was worded.  In my humble opinion, Olin's tirades threw cold water
on the Pic list.  I'll lay serious odds that a number of people with PIC
problems would've posted questions, had they not feared an embarrassing
and nasty response from Olin.  I was on the receiving end of one of his
tirades once when he ASSUMED I hadn't checked things out as deeply as he
thought I should (in fact, I had).  Rather than asking what I'd checked
in coming to my conclusion, he went off the deep end.  When I read his
response, the first thought through my mind was Prima Donna.  Yes, I
took offense, but I'm too stubborn to be beaten down that easily.

I was a data processing department head for 30 years and had more than
one Prima Donna (PD) working for me during that time.  The one thing I
never allowed was one of my technical experts ridiculing someone who
came to them for help.  It is totally unprofessional and was NOT
tolerated.  I only had to fire one PD after repeated warnings for the
others to get the message.  Olin may be the PIC list's version of my PD.

Yes, it IS a loss - any time you lose access to an expert everyone loses
a little.  BUT, if we get more activity because people needing
assistance are no longer afraid of ridicule, what have we REALLY lost??

Bear in mind, Andrew, this is ONLY my humble opinion!!
Dennis

Andrew Kieran wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\17@170146 by DJMurray

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Don't speak for me, either!!

Dennis

fred jones wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\02\17@171435 by DJMurray

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You know, we're all supposed to be adults here. At least where I come
from, we're taught manners and, hopefully, some degree of tact when
dealing with "smarty pants"-type people. We really don't know "Mr.
Smarty Pants" - English may not have been his first language or, if it
is, he may not have the grasp of that language we'd like for him to have.

The smartest person I ever had work for me had 2 doctorates - one in
math and the other chemistry. Closest thing I've ever seen to a genius -
but he couldn't write a coherent sentence if his life depended on it!!!
If you took his writing on face value, Olin would have called him a
screaming IDIOT!

On the other hand, we all know there're LOTS of lazy people out there
who'd be only too happy for us to do their work for them. "Mr. smarty
pants" may well be one of them. But can't we at least be civil in our
responses??

Just my 2 cents worth!
Dennis

Jeff LeBlanc wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2004\02\19@181020 by MSullivan

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I hate to see Olin get slaughtered like this... he was helpful and
responsive to me too....
I don't get the hangup on the word "idiot".....    you ever watch "That 70's
show"?...  the father says it to his son...
ever watch "Everybody Love Raymond"   Debra calls raymond that...
it just seems a gut level expression these days.....  and we laugh at it on
TV.....
I knew a technition that had quite a crude vocabulary...   he could laugh at
himself too...
my best friend threw the word idiot around....  and just mostly funny....
like watching a cartoon is.....
Olin is probably parroting and expression he heard many times...  probably
with he best friends...
it doesn't come natural to Olin to talk mushy "you're going down the wrong
path....  blah blah.... " ... but idiot pops to mind...   maybe he's busy
and wants to be breef...  and addresses more issues that way... rather than
trying to soft pad his opinions and observation.....



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff LeBlanc" <.....jefflebspamRemoveMEBELLSOUTH.NET>
To: <PICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Olin has been Deleted! (was insuccesses)


> Perhaps, what is needed IS the abuse of those too lazy to do even the
> smallest amount of self help before asking the list to do all of their
grunt
> work for them.
>
> If every time some idiot spewed forth: "Please tell me everything you have
> learned about pic's in the last 10 years so I then know what question to
ask
> you so I can get you to do my project for me", someone slammed him good
for
> being a lazy dumb**** then perhaps the quantity of those types of
> questions/requests would decline.
>
> This is a problem which is not limited to the piclist but to most forums.
> There should be a idiot filter where the person asking the question or
> making a request should have to demonstrate at least some minimal trying
to
> solve the problem on his/her own.
>
> I have been reading the list for several years, and have benefited greatly
> from Olin's posts. By removing him from the list does nothing to solve the
> problem of the idiots, it only removes a valuable source of information
from
> those who truly appreciate the list. The one who SHOULD have been removed
> was the idiot that ilicited Olin's response which in my opinion was mild
and
> could have and should have been much worse.
>
> Jeff
>
> {Original Message removed}

2004\02\20@005731 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Thursday, Feb 19, 2004, at 15:08 US/Pacific, MSullivan wrote:

> I don't get the hangup on the word "idiot"....

Way back when, at my first employer after college, we used to
make these little tables on the boss's whiteboard.  Once, we
rated most of the local employees on three separate criteria,
sorta to see whether we could recognize any correlation:
1) Whether they were competent
2) Whether we "liked" them.
3) Whether they were <expletive edited to> jerks...

It was interesting.  In general, we had no problems at all
liking the competent jerks.  (The incompetent jerks were
not well liked, however.)

All that stopped when a somewhat similar matrix ended up
labeling one of the female admins as "evil", and the boss
got yanked in front of HR...  Sigh.

BillW

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