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'[PIC]: New Burner Motivation (assumption).'
2002\08\18@053229 by Mike Singer

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Could "The PICLIST Development Project" be used
to program attached thing?

Does anybody know other PIC clones?

What is Microchip official opinion on clones?



Mike.



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part 3 3002 bytes content-type:application/x-compressed; (decode)

part 4 136 bytes
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2002\08\18@055929 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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Mike,

> Could "The PICLIST Development Project" be used
> to program attached thing?

I could not see why not. Who makes these?

> Does anybody know other PIC clones?

There used to be quite a few companies in Taiwan. Most have stopped making
them as far as I know.

> What is Microchip official opinion on clones?

I had heard that they cracked down on them, but I am not 100% sure.

Regards,

Sean

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2002\08\18@084048 by Olin Lathrop

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> What is Microchip official opinion on clones?

They want everyone to run out and buy them or course.  Duh!


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2002\08\18@084713 by Byron A Jeff

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On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 07:59:21PM +1000, Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote:
> Mike,
>
> > Could "The PICLIST Development Project" be used
> > to program attached thing?
>
> I could not see why not. Who makes these?

If we ever come to a consensus, you will. It's the Designer/PICbase/PBK
box we've been talking about the last few weeks. I changed the name for
the Executive Overview thread to remove bias both for a particular design
and from the Beginner Only slant.

And the answer to your question Mike is yes. The box will have a ICSP port
so that it can program other attached PIC boards.

If you're thinking about other processor types, then maybe the CUMP will be
more your speed.

BAJ

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2002\08\18@085533 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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Byron,

> If we ever come to a consensus, you will. It's the Designer/PICbase/PBK
> box we've been talking about the last few weeks. I changed the name for
> the Executive Overview thread to remove bias both for a particular design
> and from the Beginner Only slant.

I was talking about the attached files in Mike's post - of the PIC
compatible MCUs

Regards,

Sean

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2002\08\18@094439 by Jim Ewald

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>> What is Microchip official opinion on clones?

> They want everyone to run out and buy them or course.  Duh!

I'm sure their legal department would be interested in any PIC clone
that becomes available. It's probably not a good idea unless one has a
great legal team and deep pockets.

Jim
{demonstrating a firm grasp of the obvious)

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2002\08\18@105648 by Byron A Jeff

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On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:55:36PM +1000, Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote:
> Byron,
>
> > If we ever come to a consensus, you will. It's the Designer/PICbase/PBK
> > box we've been talking about the last few weeks. I changed the name for
> > the Executive Overview thread to remove bias both for a particular design
> > and from the Beginner Only slant.
>
> I was talking about the attached files in Mike's post - of the PIC
> compatible MCUs

Sorry I missed that. I thought you were taking about the programmer, not the
target chip.

There didn't seem to be a programming specification anywhere. Hold on a virtual
minute and let me see if I can find out... OK I'm back and I found it here:

http://cat.pinnacle.com.tw/ic/emc/8bit/other/PROGRAM%20TIMING.pdf

The short answer is no. The programming pinout and algorithm is completely
different that the standard microchip one.

BTW these only seem to be OTP. Mike, do you know if they have a windowed part
that's eraseable.

I'd guess that this part myst be extremely price sensitive if it's worth taking
a look at. Can you give a cost estimate?

BAJ

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2002\08\18@164843 by Peter L. Peres

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On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Jim Ewald wrote:

>>> What is Microchip official opinion on clones?
>
>> They want everyone to run out and buy them or course.  Duh!
>
>I'm sure their legal department would be interested in any PIC clone
>that becomes available. It's probably not a good idea unless one has a
>great legal team and deep pockets.

You are assuming all the time that they would be in a country where they
can be sued and the lawsuit would get over within less than a lifetime or
two. This may be slightly wrong.

Peter

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2002\08\18@173926 by myke predko

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Hi Peter,

Obviously you have never had to deal with Kim Van Herk.  She's Microchip's
IP lawyer and she is not very imaginative with regards to what she considers
improper use of Microchip's registered marks.  Her task is to make sure the
term "PIC", "PICmicro(R) microcontroller", "MPLAB-ICD", "PICStart Plus",
etc. are NEVER used incorrectly over the internet. in books, or casual
conversation and it is a task that she takes very seriously.

To be fair, she's a nice person, but she is very devoted to her task.  And,
while even in the United States where you are protected by the 1st Amendment
with regards to how you refer to something, Microchip can put the screws to
you in other ways (like not allowing you to distribute the MPLAB-ICD with
your product or getting an injunction against selling a product in the U.S.
(or any country that has an IP treaty with the U.S.) because the registered
marks referenced in the product are not approved by their owner).

I'm mentioning this for the PBK; we have to make sure that the project we
only use Microchip's products and make sure that we reference them
correctly.


<on soap box>
I don't agree with this policy and I have told Microchip this.  It is a real
"glass boardroom" legal response to the issue of IP protection and does not
take into account the expectations of the WWW community and treaties people
and companies that would develop products and services for the PICmicro MCU
as potential infringers, criminals or, at best, general miscreants.
</on soap box>

It's an emotional topic for me because it has caused me (and my publisher)
more gas than you could ever believe.

myke

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\18@203240 by James Newton, webmaster

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The "PIC"List has survived (so far) without a call from Ms. Van
Herk or other legal eagles at Microchip for some unknown
reason... Every other thing with PIC in the name has been shut
down.

Perhaps our affiliation with MIT or the fact that we do not sell
anything for profit. Perhaps we are small enough to not raise her
ire.

I'd love to know what is on her "can" and "can't" lists in
advance so we can avoid stepping on toes, but I'm afraid to
ask... I don't want to draw any attention. <GRIN>

I wonder if the list might be required to switch to the microList
or something like that in the future.

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2002\08\19@021852 by Nelson Hochberg

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Ms. Van Herk and Microchip has to be aggressive with protecting their trade
names.  Otherwise the trade names could become public domain and they would
loose them.  If lots of people started saying things like "Motorola makes a
great PIC" and Microchip did nothing, then the term "PIC" would become any
micro controller and not just micro controllers made by Microchip.  For
example, "Aspirin" was a trademark of the Bayer Corporation.  Of course
Bayer could not protect their trade name in the US during World War II since
Bayer is a German company.

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\19@054850 by Eric Bohlman

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8/19/02 1:17:55 AM, Nelson Hochberg <TakeThisOuTnelsonEraseMEspamspam_OUTNOSUFFERING.COM> wrote:

>Ms. Van Herk and Microchip has to be aggressive with protecting their trade
>names.  Otherwise the trade names could become public domain and they would
>loose them.  If lots of people started saying things like "Motorola makes a
>great PIC" and Microchip did nothing, then the term "PIC" would become any
>micro controller and not just micro controllers made by Microchip.  For
>example, "Aspirin" was a trademark of the Bayer Corporation.  Of course
>Bayer could not protect their trade name in the US during World War II since
>Bayer is a German company.

Yes, they're legally required to ask people using the name generically not to.  However, using the
name generically in comment is *not* a violation of the Lanham Act, which governs trademarks, so
all they can do is ask; they have to give you notice, but the notice isn't binding on you.

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2002\08\20@022738 by Mike Singer

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Byron A Jeff wrote:
.
> ... here:
> http://cat.pinnacle.com.tw/ic/emc/8bit/other/PROGRAM%20TIMING.pdf
>
> The short answer is no. The programming pinout and
> algorithm is completely different that the standard
> microchip one.
>
> BTW these only seem to be OTP. Mike, do you know if
> they have a windowed part that's eraseable.
>
> I'd guess that this part myst be extremely price
> sensitive if it's worth taking a look at. Can you
> give a cost estimate?
.

I'm not sure the above-mentioned .pdf is the only
document on programming the chip.
Why should they bother with a windowed or flash parts?
For developing they could use original parts. They
aim at mass very cheap non-updatable market.
These parts are present here in Ukraine, though price
information is unavailable until you show real
intentions to buy them.
Also there are rather cheap devices with these parts
inside. I was called to repair some of them. I asked
what parts are inside, then started to collect docs.
The rest is on the List.
From your URL "pinnacle.com.tw/ic/emc":

"Elan Microelectronic Corp"
http://www.emc.com.tw/

subdivision of "Pinnacle Technology Corporation"
http://www.pinnacle.com.tw/


---------------
Mike.
PS: by the way, the things' outputs could be programmed
as open drains, if I'm not mistaken.

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2002\08\22@102147 by Byron A Jeff

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On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 09:29:57AM +0300, Mike Singer wrote:
> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> .
> > ... here:
> > cat.pinnacle.com.tw/ic/emc/8bit/other/PROGRAM%20TIMING.pdf
> >
> > The short answer is no. The programming pinout and
> > algorithm is completely different that the standard
> > microchip one.
> >
> > BTW these only seem to be OTP. Mike, do you know if
> > they have a windowed part that's eraseable.
> >
> > I'd guess that this part myst be extremely price
> > sensitive if it's worth taking a look at. Can you
> > give a cost estimate?
> .
>
>  I'm not sure the above-mentioned .pdf is the only
> document on programming the chip.

Neither am I. But it's what I found in a couple of minutes of searching.

>  Why should they bother with a windowed or flash parts?

Because when one is developing, one doesn't necessarily like to burn through
a rack or two worth of parts to get the design right.

> For developing they could use original parts. They
> aim at mass very cheap non-updatable market.

See above. Windowed parts are recyclable for development only. Of course
OTP or mask programmed would be used one the development is complete.

>  These parts are present here in Ukraine, though price
> information is unavailable until you show real
> intentions to buy them.

Well that sucks. How can you do a price comparison if you don't know the
price?

BAJ

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2002\08\22@214918 by Peter L. Peres

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Byron A Jeff wrote:

>>  These parts are present here in Ukraine, though price
>> information is unavailable until you show real
>> intentions to buy them.
>
>Well that sucks. How can you do a price comparison if you don't know the
>price?

Now, let's see, where did I hear this before (every day for ten years or
so) ?

Peter

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