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'[PIC]: Microchip's PIC18F87J10'
2005\04\26@165309 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 03:48 PM 4/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>Same for those cool new PIC18F87J10 series micros.
>
>Check the endurance spec on the flash.

Yes, I noticed that. Doesn't bother me much (who reprograms a production
product more than once or twice?), but it might affect some applications.
It seems to be coming along with other dual-voltage devices (ST-7), but
the LPC210x ARM has 100,000 cycles min endurance.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\04\26@183837 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> Check the endurance spec on the flash.
>
> Yes, I noticed that. Doesn't bother me much (who reprograms a
> production product more than once or twice?), but it might affect
> some applications.

I guess I said that wrong.  I meant check the retention lifetime.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\26@193500 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I guess I said that wrong.  I meant check the retention lifetime.

For all we information sponges, if there's something interesting
happening here it would be nice to hear the actual data. As you know
the figure and consider it notable it would take no more effort to
quote it (even approximately) than to just talk about it.

I'm not complaining at all - just noting that one may not go and look
up something like this for a chip one wasn't expecting to use any time
soon (or any time) but having extra information adds to the mental
information base that may be useful in future. I appreciate that
nobody is obliged to provide chapter and verse on everything they
post, but it's useful if it's done if it takes no more effort to do
so.



       Russell McMahon

2005\04\26@195137 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
> For all we information sponges, if there's something interesting
> happening here it would be nice to hear the actual data. As you know
> the figure and consider it notable it would take no more effort to
> quote it (even approximately) than to just talk about it.

If you really must know, I didn't give any numbers because this is something
I'm not at liberty to divulge unless it's already been published by
Microchip.  I'm too lazy to check the latest docs to see what exactly
Microchip is saying and what they're not saying.  So pointing people to the
docs was a safe way to point out something without violating any confidence.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\26@203209 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:38 PM 4/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> >> Check the endurance spec on the flash.
> >
> > Yes, I noticed that. Doesn't bother me much (who reprograms a
> > production product more than once or twice?), but it might affect
> > some applications.
>
>I guess I said that wrong.  I meant check the retention lifetime.

Ah so.. 20 years typical at 25°C does seem inadequate.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffKILLspamspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2005\04\26@204845 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
>> >> Check the endurance spec on the flash.
>> I guess I said that wrong.  I meant check the retention lifetime.
> Ah so.. 20 years typical at 25°C does seem inadequate.

Looking at the datasheet (39663A.pdf) for the PIC18F87J10 Family, there is a table:

TABLE A-1: NOTABLE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PIC18F8722 AND PIC18F87J10 FAMILIES

wherein is listed

Characteristic              PIC18F87J10 Family      PIC18F8722 Family
Program Memory Retention    10 years (minimum)      40 years (minimum)
Program Memory Endurance
PIC18F87J10 Family                       PIC18F8722 Family
1,000 write/erase cycles (typical)      100,000 write/erase cycles (typical)

I've seen the "J" in the partnumber in the recent past but do not know what the meaning of it is.  Is this explained anywhere on the Microchip website?
MD

2005\04\26@212604 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> So pointing people to the docs was a safe way to
> point out something without violating any confidence.

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Prospective 18F87J10 users please report back in due course :-)


       RM

2005\04\26@222416 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Yech: an endurance spec of 100 is not very good for a soldered in prototype
under development.

Lets see.....  At an average of 3 burn cycles per hour, 8 hours per day, you
could be dead meat in about four days.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

{Original Message removed}

2005\04\26@224244 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 07:53 PM 4/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Yech: an endurance spec of 100 is not very good for a soldered in
>prototype under development.
>
>Lets see.....  At an average of 3 burn cycles per hour, 8 hours per day,
>you could be dead meat in about four days.
>
>Bob Ammerman
>RAm Systems

Not ideal, but it's a minimum figure. Typical (probably with compromised
reliability, so
I wouldn't ship such a unit out the door) is 1,000 cycles.

Which ought to be enough for even the most avid burn-and-crash programmer.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffspamKILLspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\04\26@230516 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Lets see.....  At an average of 3 burn cycles per hour, 8 hours per
> day, you could be dead meat in about four days.

And at a realistic 6 per hour 15 hours per day ... :-)


           RM

2005\04\27@072036 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Marcel Duchamp wrote:
> Looking at the datasheet (39663A.pdf) for the PIC18F87J10 Family, there
> is a table:
>
> Characteristic              PIC18F87J10 Family      PIC18F8722 Family
> Program Memory Retention    10 years (minimum)      40 years (minimum)

This is what I was trying to point out, but wasn't sure what Microchip had
released about it yet.  This is a major difference from previous parts, and
I think 10 year lifetime is a serious limitation.  That would have been
unsuitable for the vast majority of my projects.

> I've seen the "J" in the partnumber in the recent past but do not know
> what the meaning of it is.

I believe that indicates a particular fab process (1/4 micron?).  These
chips all seem to have the characteristic of low flash retention and that
they only run at 3.3V.


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Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\27@124613 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On 4/27/05, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistKILLspamspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:
> Marcel Duchamp wrote:
> > Looking at the datasheet (39663A.pdf) for the PIC18F87J10 Family, there
> > is a table:
> >
> > Characteristic              PIC18F87J10 Family      PIC18F8722 Family
> > Program Memory Retention    10 years (minimum)      40 years (minimum)
>
> This is what I was trying to point out, but wasn't sure what Microchip had
> released about it yet.  This is a major difference from previous parts, and
> I think 10 year lifetime is a serious limitation.  That would have been
> unsuitable for the vast majority of my projects.

Is this really even the case or is it simply that the datasheet is
preliminary and they do not know the answer yet?  A lot of the stuff
in there is marked TBD.  I would expect that they will find through
their accelerated life tests that the flash retention is in-line with
other parts.  Does anyone (does Microchip?) really make an flash with
only 10 year retention?  We hear stories on the list about people
using "10 year" EEPROMs for 25 years now.

> > I've seen the "J" in the partnumber in the recent past but do not know
> > what the meaning of it is.
>
> I believe that indicates a particular fab process (1/4 micron?).  These
> chips all seem to have the characteristic of low flash retention and that
> they only run at 3.3V.

Is this an issue with the process or is it just a new process to
Microchip and they don't want to make claims that don't stand the test
of time?

Bradley

2005\04\27@185848 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Bradley Ferguson wrote:
> I would expect that they will find through
> their accelerated life tests that the flash retention is in-line with
> other parts.

But they are differnt processes and are made in different fabs.

*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\28@200657 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:58 PM 4/27/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Bradley Ferguson wrote:
> > I would expect that they will find through
> > their accelerated life tests that the flash retention is in-line with
> > other parts.
>
>But they are differnt processes and are made in different fabs.

Olin-- any idea what the *typical* supply current is in the ENC28J60
units you've seen?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\04\28@203446 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> Olin-- any idea what the *typical* supply current is in the ENC28J60
> units you've seen?

The first ones took nearly 1W.  The latest batch seem to be a little better,
but I haven't actually measured them yet.  I've got a board with a ENC28J60
and a 30F4012 running at max speed.  Both are in the same 28 pin SOIC
package, and both seem to get about as warm.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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