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'[PIC]: Just a funny history...'
2001\05\10@223939 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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       Just to tell a funny history, that happens everyday...

       Here was me, myself and I, programming a comercial device that needs to be ready to use tomorrow, spending all my brain cells in the MPLAB. Some thousand lines of program, and everything SEEMS to be fine. I use the trusty old NoPPP to program the 16F84 (God helps me when I'll convert it to the 12C508...), and the NoPPP95 by Rafael Cabezas (wow man, great program!). Program tested, everything working when I do one of the final "cleanups" of the code. I program a 16F84 and NOTHING WORKS. Compile program again. Nothing works. Burn 3 times. NOTHING WORKS!!!

       Started to get desperated and looking thru almost a thousand lines of code, looking for problems. No problems anywhere. To resume a long and desperate story, there is an error in the NoPPP95, that if you don't change the oscilator type from XT to anything to XT again, the pic JUST DOESN'T WORK!!! And I forgot it for a moment. Took me 10 minutes of despair. Go figure :oP

       I dream with that picstart...

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2001\05\11@022352 by Tsvetan Usunov

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>        Here was me, myself and I, programming a comercial device that
needs to be ready to use tomorrow, spending all my brain cells in the MPLAB.
Some >thousand lines of program,

you can put thousands line of program code in 84? ;)

> and everything SEEMS to be fine. I use the trusty old NoPPP to program the
16F84 (God helps me when I'll convert it to the >12C508...), and the NoPPP95
>by Rafael Cabezas (wow man, great program!). Program tested, everything
working when I do one of the final "cleanups" of the >code. I program a
16F84 and
>NOTHING WORKS. Compile program again. Nothing works. Burn 3 times. NOTHING
WORKS!!!
>
>        Started to get desperated and looking thru almost a thousand lines
of code, looking for problems. No problems anywhere. To resume a long and
desperate >story, there is an error in the NoPPP95, that if you don't change
the oscilator type from XT to anything to XT again, the pic JUST DOESN'T
WORK!!! And I >forgot it for a moment. Took me 10 minutes of despair. Go
figure :oP
>
>        I dream with that picstart...

you should try IC PROG

also check our PIC programmers at http://run.to/kits

PG001 is fine for PIC16F84

Best regards
Tsvetan
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2001\05\11@072712 by Olin Lathrop

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> Here was me, myself and I, programming a comercial device
> that needs to be ready to use tomorrow ...
>
> there is an error in the NoPPP95,

When time=money you can't afford to fart around with second rate tools.
What's the price of a PicStart+ compared to the cost of not having the
device working tomorrow?  Duh!  Sorry, but people who are pretending to do
professional work without professional tools don't get any sympathy from me.


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2001\05\11@090115 by Patrik Husfloen

picon face
Ponyprog is also a great app, don't have the url here but it should be on google.
Not sure it works with your programmer though, works great with my ludipipo :)

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\11@101330 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>> there is an error in the NoPPP95,
>When time=money you can't afford to fart around with second rate tools.
>What's the price of a PicStart+ compared to the cost of not having the
>device working tomorrow?  Duh!  Sorry, but people who are pretending to do
>professional work without professional tools don't get any sympathy from me.

       If you know the price of a PicStart+ here, you would change your oppinion :o) It costs around $500 (yep, five hundred dollars) and it's EXPENSIVE to me. But don't worry, there is a picstart on the way :o)

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2001\05\11@104632 by Marcelo Yamamoto

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Alexandre Domingos F. Souza wrote:
>         If you know the price of a PicStart+ here, you would change your
oppinion :o) It costs around $500 (yep, five hundred dollars) and it's
EXPENSIVE to me. But don't worry, there is a picstart on the way :o)

I think there is a mistake. The local distributor sells PS+ for $220 US for
Brazil.
AutComp
Phone: (+11) 6915-7443

Marcelo Y.

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2001\05\15@005550 by Alejandro Lavarello

picon face
Alexandre has right, I think.

The PIC distributors outside USA are excesively covetous.

His behaviour puts basic tools very far from for hobbyst and students.

Here in Uruguay, a PicStart costs US dollars 350 plus taxes.
Final price is U$S 440. It is the pay of one month for
an average worker.

The new ICD tool is unavailable.

In South America, an intermediator named IBARS (based in USA) sells PICs
and relatives to local resellers. This marketing scheme increased
prices (in USA, Microchips sells directly).

The only solution for working people and beginners (like me and others) is to
build homebrew tools.

Cheers! :)
         Alejandro.

At 11:46 11/05/01 -0300, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\15@080624 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Could it be cheaper for somebody stateside to purchase PICs and tools
locally and ship them to those that are getting hit with these obscene
prices?

I don't know what kind of issues there would be with tarriffs, etc.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\05\15@083351 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Here in Uruguay, a PicStart costs US dollars 350 plus taxes.
> Final price is U$S 440. It is the pay of one month for
> an average worker.

Could you order one directly from the US for about $150?  The shipping and
import taxes couldn't add up to $290, could they?


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2001\05\15@122523 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 07:25 AM 5/15/01 -0400, you wrote:
>> Here in Uruguay, a PicStart costs US dollars 350 plus taxes.
>> Final price is U$S 440. It is the pay of one month for
>> an average worker.
>
>Could you order one directly from the US for about $150?

Where do you get them for $150?  Pioneer and Digikey both
want $200.

Best regards,
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TakeThisOuTspeffEraseMEspamspam_OUTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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2001\05\15@135040 by Olin Lathrop

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> Where do you get them for $150?  Pioneer and Digikey both
> want $200.

Hmm.  I bought mine a few years ago, and I sorta remember it was $120 but
that was probably thru the Microchip consultant's program.  Maybe my
recollection is off, and maybe the price has gone up since then.


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2001\05\15@173124 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

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>Could it be cheaper for somebody stateside to purchase PICs and tools
>locally and ship them to those that are getting hit with these obscene
>prices?

       It's usually a great thing Bob, but there are some factors that make it a complicated matter:

       Case one - Bob buys a Picstart +, sends to Alexandre. Alexandre doesn't pay.
       Case two - Alexandre sends money to Bob, Bob doesn't send the picstart.
       Case three - Alexandre sends money to Bob, but something happens with the packet - Alexandre is dumb and doesn't understand that bob has no influence about this.
       Case four - Alexandre sends money to Bob, Bob sends the Picstart, the picstart get locked in the customs, and Alexandre wants his money back
       Case five - Alexandre asks Bob to buy a picstart, and Bob buy it, but Alexandre desist to buy it, and Bob got a new picstart. Not for granted, anyway.

       As you can see, it's a complicated matter. It only works if:

       A: Part A trust part B
       B: Part B trust part A
       C: Part A and B agrees that this is a FAVOUR, and if part B lose money, part A has no business on it.

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2001\05\15@182735 by Gennette, Bruce

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-----Original Message-----
From: Olin Lathrop [RemoveMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamKILLspamEMBEDINC.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, 15 May 2001 21:25
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Just a funny history...


|> Here in Uruguay, a PicStart costs US dollars 350 plus taxes.
|> Final price is U$S 440. It is the pay of one month for
|> an average worker.

>Could you order one directly from the US for about $150?  The shipping and
>import taxes couldn't add up to $290, could they?


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Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, EraseMEolinspamspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

Governments tax whatever they want - for example 11 years ago while on
holiday my girlfriend bought a leather jacket in Barcelona (Spain) which had
to be altered to fit her, then sent on to Australia by mail.  Australian
customs added 150% import tax because leather goods were taffif protected
then.
(We got around it by 'returning' it, mailing it back to England where a
friend bought it home in their luggage, 0% tax).

So, yeah, the shipping and import taxes could add up to US$290 !

Bye.

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2001\05\15@212050 by Alejandro Lavarello

picon face
Hi Spehro!

Well, RS and Farnell has local distributors here in Uruguay, but his prizes
are
more high than others local resellers (about U$S 20 for a PIC6F84, for
example).
(A PIC16F84 costs here U$S 9,8 per unit, taxes included).

About buying using e-commerce, its sounds like a good idea.
But certain problems occur for a single person
(a company has more chances):

1) Most people here do not feel secure sending credit card numbers by
Internet.
Regional cedit cards (Visa and Mastercard that are good and  valid only in
Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay) are not accepted outside the region.

2) Another paying schemes (like cheques) are less used and known for people ,
and less accepted by US enterprises.

3) Taxes (about 100%) applies to imported goods, even to e-commerce buys.

4) If the tool do not work because a fail, or the packet is lossed,
the question is : "what about my money"?

The moral of this story: months ago, we need a PIC16F8XX programmer,
but because the above limitations, we ended making our own programmer. It
works ok,
and we learned a lot in the process.

Cheers!! :)

               Alejandro

At 12:25 15/05/01 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\16@151041 by Peter L. Peres

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> Could it be cheaper for somebody stateside to purchase PICs and tools
> locally and ship them to those that are getting hit with these obscene
> prices?

Yes, if you do not get caught by the customs.

> I don't know what kind of issues there would be with tarriffs, etc.

You do not want to know. If you knew and did it, you'd be doing it with
intent ... ;-)

Peter

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2001\05\16@151941 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> > Could it be cheaper for somebody stateside to purchase PICs and tools
> > locally and ship them to those that are getting hit with these obscene
> > prices?
>
> Yes, if you do not get caught by the customs.
>
> > I don't know what kind of issues there would be with tarriffs, etc.
>
> You do not want to know. If you knew and did it, you'd be doing it with
> intent ... ;-)

My intent was to do it _legally_, whatever that took. If it isn't feasible
under those conditions, I am not interested.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2001\05\17@140752 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> My intent was to do it _legally_, whatever that took. If it isn't
> feasible under those conditions, I am not interested.

It will of course be somehow legal. The problems begin when a customs
official strains his single neuron to decide whether a medium large box
with pretty labels and obviously expensive brand new hi-tech equipment in
it (that costs $27.95 according to the large orange sticker on it, and
that's an obvious lie, since in some countries some people are convinced
that prices start at $100 no matter what you buy), should be taxed as
'communications equipment' with 100% for their listed $100/each,
'industrial electronic equipment' with 120% for their listed $180/each or
'manufacturing equipment' with 300% for their listed minimum $400/each
plus an approval from the ministry of industry. Not to mention the
requirement for an approval or two (FCC-equivalents etc). You could even
pay a fine for the cheekiness of applying that ridiculous label for
$27.95, and another for trying to discuss this.

I was not suggesting that you could break the law.

Peter

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2001\05\17@180612 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> It will of course be somehow legal. The problems begin when a customs
> official strains his single neuron to decide whether a medium large box
> with pretty labels and obviously expensive brand new hi-tech equipment in
> it (that costs $27.95 according to the large orange sticker on it, and
> that's an obvious lie, since in some countries some people are convinced
> that prices start at $100 no matter what you buy), should be taxed as
> 'communications equipment' with 100% for their listed $100/each,
> 'industrial electronic equipment' with 120% for their listed $180/each or
> 'manufacturing equipment' with 300% for their listed minimum $400/each
> plus an approval from the ministry of industry.

Once again proof of why the third world got that way.


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2001\05\17@223154 by mark

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On 11 May 2001, at 15:00, Patrik Husfloen wrote:

> Ponyprog is also a great app, don't have the url here but it should be on
> google. Not sure it works with your programmer though, works great with my
> ludipipo :)
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\05\18@140840 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Once again proof of why the third world got that way.

Worse, once again proof of why it is staying that way even after they
know.

Peter

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2001\05\21@044348 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> It will of course be somehow legal. The problems begin when a customs
> official strains his single neuron to decide whether a medium large box
> with pretty labels and obviously expensive brand new hi-tech equipment in
> it (that costs $27.95 according to the large orange sticker on it, and
> that's an obvious lie, since in some countries some people are convinced
> that prices start at $100 no matter what you buy), should be taxed as
> 'communications equipment' with 100% for their listed $100/each,
> 'industrial electronic equipment' with 120% for their listed $180/each or
> 'manufacturing equipment' with 300% for their listed minimum $400/each
> plus an approval from the ministry of industry. Not to mention the
> requirement for an approval or two (FCC-equivalents etc). You could even
> pay a fine for the cheekiness of applying that ridiculous label for
> $27.95, and another for trying to discuss this.


There is no denying the frequently bureaucratic mindset of many in authority
and of many governments in general. And you weren't actually criticising the
rules here - just commenting on the officialdom - but as another poster HAS
followed this up and others HAVE commented favourable on his conclusion,
I'll say ...

HOWEVER

Most all of what you list above has a basis in reason in many cases, even if
the practice can get out of hand. While I know you will be aware of this -

- Many countries are not as well off as eg the US of A and cannot afford a
free flow of their resources based on the whims of individual members of the
populace. The concept of person A being freely allowed to effectively freely
spend the earnings made by person B is a relatively new one for many
countries. Poorer countries seem to feel that one may wish to distinguish
between importing tractors and importing eg genuine imitation Byzantine bead
curtains. Our country used to have massive import controls but nowadays we
"lead the world" and if I want to import genuine imitation Byzantine bead
curtains and pay for them with the overseas funds earned by eg our sheep
farmers or Kiwifruit exporters then I am almost totally free to do so. We
do not, apparently, care that the net imbalance in trade is to be paid for
by real dollars from the countries coffers or that overall my country has
to borrow on the international markets to do this,. We are among the most
enlightened free trade nations in the world (and an ex
almost-Prime-NZ-Minister is head of the WTO).

- Distinguishing between the "usefulness to the country" of various classes
of imports seems like a good idea to some countries with limited resources.
Discouraging people from buying eg communications equipment / manufacturing
equipment / industrial equipment or genuine imitation Byz ... equipment. The
actual rates are probably different than you quote but the REASON is of
course the perceived value to the country concerned. In practice there are
of course a whole raft of thieves who abuse and take advantage of the system
such as eg
- people who buy import licence quota and selling it at extortionate rates
as people openly used to do here
- corrupt officials and middle men who help you bypass the system for a fee,
- those who "smuggle" or misdeclare their product thereby depriving their
countrymen of the funds the restrictions are designed to protect.
[Actually almost relevant here - presumably someone has decided, right or
wrong, that Microchip programmers are not the very best use of the country's
funds..]
- and many more
Of course there are many who know that such restrictions are ultimately
counter productive, against the best interests of the majority, an
inconvenience to be bypassed etc - and many of these find a "nice little
earner" while helping demonstrate, in their own eyes at least, the paucity
of the system.

While there are enough people in the world who do l;ess to help themselves
than they might, there are many many many who do far more than their more
fortunate 1st/2nd world equivalents and still fail to escape the poverty
trap.
Much of what hobbles the 3rd world is founded on the arrogant actions of the
political; elite of the 19th and early 20th century, with who only the creme
of today's crop of international politicians can compare. Not for want of
trying.
The extreme arrogance and disregard of the right or people to their own
lives as demonstrated in  "The Eastern Question" (look it up) takes some
beating even by today's standards. The effect on the current status & state
of a typical indigenous Southern Sudanese of the long-ago actions of Sir
Winston Churchill & co are very probably far greater than anything they can
do themselves. The same applies to the current state  of a typical Northern
Sudanese indigene but in an opposite sense. If you have not the faintest
idea of what I am talking about then you have little right, as one person
who replied to Peter's post did, to generalise the causes of current 3rd
world problems.

All that said (is anyone still reading this ? :-) ), a fatal destroyer,
alas,  of the poor is institutionalised corruption. Once a country has
reached the stage where corrupt practice is an essential part of survival
for the majority, then eliminating it from the system is demonstrably an
almost intractable problem. If backhanders, bribes, kick backs and the like
are necessary to survive, how are you going to begin to escape them? Too
often the roots of this also lie in history but the results are now self
perpetuating.

Time to take a breath.
Let's see if anyone thinks this is worthy of comment :-)





Russell McMahon

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