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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: Infrared Communications'
2002\09\11@014642 by Robert Wade

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Does anyone know of a good website that talks about Infrared Communications
with PICS. Other than http://www.rentron.com. I am looking for something a
little more than just remote controls ;-).

Thanks

Rob

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2002\09\11@021132 by Jinx

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What do you want to do ? Data, speed, distance ???

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2002\09\11@022734 by Vasile Surducan

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On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Jinx wrote:

> What do you want to do ? Data, speed, distance ???
>
 Joe, all three with a standard 5mW red laser diode module for tx and IR
detector for rx.

best, Vasile

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2002\09\11@075216 by Robert Wade

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face
Jinx,
    I want to pass data from person to person. Sorry I was not more clean.
What I mean by data is like Name and Job Title. I am tinkering with the
PIC16F628.

Thanks

Rob

{Original Message removed}

2002\09\11@094242 by Russell McMahon

face
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> I want to pass data from person to person. Sorry I was not more clean.
> What I mean by data is like Name and Job Title. I am tinkering with the
> PIC16F628.

Range?
Data rate?
Packet size?
Bidirectional?
Reliability?

My limited experience with infrared receiver modules intended for remote
controls suggests that ranges of 2 to 10 metres would be easily achieved at
say 2400 baud (possibly higher). Range depends somewhat on light levels,
power, directionality of LED/RX, ....

I suggest starting off by buying one of the many 38 kHz (or similar)
receiver modules intended for TV remote applications and trying that. You
can customise this in due course if desired.

Note that IRDA compatible RX/TX heads (by HP and others) probably well
suited to your purpose are available from eg Farnell.


       RM

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2002\09\11@104000 by Aart

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> I suggest starting off by buying one of the many 38 kHz (or similar)
> receiver modules intended for TV remote applications and trying that. You
> can customise this in due course if desired.

It's far from what you're looking for but they use such an 38kHz receiver
module also (in this case the sfh 506-36 / 38). Build it myself several
years ago and works fine for each RC5 Remote Control..

Regards,
Aart.

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2002\09\11@105000 by Jason Neudorf

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For "send" transmissions, I have had success "bit-banging" SIR at 19200bps
to both my palm-pilot and to a laptop.  No 38kHz modulation needed.  It was
a bit of a pain finding something to receive on my palm--Pocketerm II worked
best, but the laptop was much simpler.

I'm not at all clear on the best way to receive SIR though.  I assume that
there's a bunch of signal conditioning needed to detect spikes in
IR--perhaps someone in [ee] could help us with that.

The IrDa transceiver modules seem to cost several dollars;  has anyone else
used these with a PIC?

Jason Neudorf

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2002\09\11@185818 by Jinx

face picon face
>      I want to pass data from person to person

The lower half of this page has a few IR interfaces for PIC

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/txless.html

You could make your own bit-bang format or use the UART

I've done a little work with white LEDs recently and found that
a much better beam is got by pointing the LED backwards
into a reflector, rather than facing it forward and using the LED's
own lens. I haven't tried it with IR LEDs, and you may not have
room to include a reflector. You should select a Tx / Rx pair
for frequency and transmission / reception angle for best results.
Doesn't have to be IR of course, but with IR you can use filtering
for ambient visible light to reduce errors

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2002\09\11@220645 by Robert Wade

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Russell,
       Thanks for the information. Sorry I am new at all this. I came up
with an idea for a device and wanted to see if I could build it. Data rate
would only have to be around 2400 baud. Range would be person to person or
person to unit (IE: PDA or Palm device). Bi-directional -- yes as each unit
talks to one another. Bi-directional I was hoping to solve by each unit or
device would have an IR transmitter and IR receiver. As for packet size and
reliability I think they go hand and hand. The packet would need to be
serialized or stamped so that other IR devices would be ignored until
communication was completed with the first device it came in contact with.
If communication was interrupted it would drop the current data after a few
seconds due to a not seeing the end of packet bit. I was hoping I could use
the PIC16F628's oscillator to create the 38khz frequency but I am not sure
yet if this is possible. I like the http://www.rentron.com site but in the
site description of this solution they use a 38khz chip on the IR
transmitter and uses a basic stamp for the receiver. I have to say the site
is very informative.


To all other thanks goes out to who replied.

Rob

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2002\09\11@220845 by Robert Wade

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Jinx,
     Thanks for the information I will read it tonight. Everyone in this
List-serv has been great for a newbie like my self. I will have to try the
reflector. (Where would I pick one up http://www.jameco.com ?) Currently I
have a large amount of space left but I would like the final product to be a
small as possible.

Thanks

Rob

{Original Message removed}

2002\09\11@233604 by Jinx

face picon face
> I will have to try the reflector. Where would I pick one up

IR LEDs come in a variety of output angles for different
porpoises. For example 5 degrees for point-to-point comms
or aperture detection, with the IR concentrated in a narrow
beam for a receiver's "sweet spot". Others have up to 80
degree or more output. The idea of a reflector for the white
LEDs was to create a parallel beam from the LEDs fan-
shaped beam. I used an old 50mm torch reflector, but
anything shiny and parabolic would do the job. Can't think
what off the shelf though. Maybe aluminium foil and plasticine
for starters ??? The LED might not need any help at the sort
of range you're probably thinking of ( < 3m ?) anyway. The
trick to good transmission is short hard pulses. Russell and
I, posterboys for Zetex, recommend ZTX transistors rather
than more common ones like BC548 or BC337. ZTX switch
faster and harder, makes a huge difference to the IR signal

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2002\09\12@005933 by Robert Wade

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Jinx,
       Are you talking about the Filters ZXF36L01W24 or ZXF103Q16 from Zetex?

Thanks

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jinx
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:35 PM
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Infrared Communications


> I will have to try the reflector. Where would I pick one up

IR LEDs come in a variety of output angles for different
porpoises. For example 5 degrees for point-to-point comms
or aperture detection, with the IR concentrated in a narrow
beam for a receiver's "sweet spot". Others have up to 80
degree or more output. The idea of a reflector for the white
LEDs was to create a parallel beam from the LEDs fan-
shaped beam. I used an old 50mm torch reflector, but
anything shiny and parabolic would do the job. Can't think
what off the shelf though. Maybe aluminium foil and plasticine
for starters ??? The LED might not need any help at the sort
of range you're probably thinking of ( < 3m ?) anyway. The
trick to good transmission is short hard pulses. Russell and
I, posterboys for Zetex, recommend ZTX transistors rather
than more common ones like BC548 or BC337. ZTX switch
faster and harder, makes a huge difference to the IR signal

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2002\09\12@010502 by Nick Rout

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> IR LEDs come in a variety of output angles for different
> porpoises.

don't porpoises use sonar?
--
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2002\09\12@023845 by Mike Singer

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Did you consider RF devices?
From http://www.rfm.com <http://www.rfm.com/>  (RF Monolithics):
"Low-power radio systems transmit from -40 to 10 dBm of RF power
and operate over distances of 3 to 200 meters. Once certified to
comply with local low-power unlicensed radio regulations, these
systems do not require a user license or "air time fees" for operation.
There are more than 150 million products manufactured each year
that utilize low-power wireless technology for data links, telemetry,
control and security".

Mike.


Robert Wade wrote:
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Did =
you
consider RF devices?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From=
<a
href=3D"http://www.rfm.com/">http://www.rfm.com</a> (RF <span =
class=3DSpellE>Monolithics</span>):<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&#82=
20;Low-power
radio systems transmit from -40 to 10 <span class=3DSpellE>dBm</span> of =
RF power
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D4 =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>and<=
/span></font></span><font
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>
operate over distances of 3 to 200 meters. Once certified to =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D4 =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>comp=
ly</span></font></span><font
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> with
local low-power unlicensed radio regulations, these =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D4 =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>syst=
ems</span></font></span><font
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>
do not require a user license or &quot;air time fees&quot; for =
operation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Ther=
e are
more than 150 million products manufactured each =
year<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><spa=
n
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span class=3DGramE>that</span> =
utilize
low-power wireless technology for data links, telemetry, =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span class=3DGramE><font size=3D4 =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>cont=
rol</span></font></span><font
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>
and security&#8221;. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><spa=
n
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>Mike.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Robe=
rt Wade
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;=
Jinx,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;</span><span
class=3DSpellE>Are</span> <span class=3DSpellE>you</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>talking</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>about</span> <span class=3DSpellE>the</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>Filters</span> ZXF36L01W24 <span class=3DSpellE>or</span> =
ZXF103Q16<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span class=3DSpellE>from</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>Zetex</span>?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span =
class=3DSpellE>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span =
class=3DSpellE>Rob</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; &gt; I <span class=3DSpellE>will</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>have</span> <span class=3DSpellE>to</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>try</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>the</span> <span class=3DSpellE>reflector</span>. =
<span
class=3DSpellE>Where</span> <span class=3DSpellE>would</span> I <span =
class=3DSpellE>pick</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>one</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>up</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; IR <span class=3DSpellE>LEDs</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>come</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>in</span> <span class=3DSpellE>a</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>variety</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>of</span> <span class=3DSpellE>output</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>angles</span> <span class=3DSpellE>for</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>different</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span class=3DSpellE>porpoises</span>. <span
class=3DSpellE>For</span> <span class=3DSpellE>example</span> 5 <span =
class=3DSpellE>degrees</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>for</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>point-to-point</span> <span
class=3DSpellE>comms</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span class=3DSpellE>or</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>aperture</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>detection</span>, <span class=3DSpellE>with</span> =
<span
class=3DSpellE>the</span> IR <span class=3DSpellE>concentrated</span> =
<span
class=3DSpellE>in</span> <span class=3DSpellE>a</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>narrow</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span class=3DSpellE>beam</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>for</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>a</span> <span class=3DSpellE>receiver's</span> =
&quot;<span
class=3DSpellE>sweet</span> <span class=3DSpellE>spot</span>&quot;. =
<span
class=3DSpellE>Others</span> <span class=3DSpellE>have</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>up</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>to</span> 80<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D4 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt; <span class=3DSpellE>degree</span> <span =
class=3DSpellE>or</span>
<span class=3DSpellE>more</span> <span class=3DSpellE>output</span>. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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part 2 15247 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 1754 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 4 136 bytes
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2002\09\12@044428 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Re IR comms there are a couple of interesting
"club" scenes:

search google "IR cloudbounce"
(people using high power IR rigs to make homemade IR
pirate radio stations etc for city use)

search google "IR laser DX"
(people having fun competing in distance communication
events with homemade laser setups, gas and solid state)

:o)
-Roman

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2002\09\12@101626 by Jim
flavicon
face
Here's a reference I just stumbled upon -

Title:
 "Handbook of Optical Through the Air Handbook"

Url:
 http://www.imagineeringezine.com/air-bk2.html

--- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- -
About this Handbook

If you are an experimenter, engineer, scientist or educator, you can benefit
from the information contained in this handbook. The Handbook guides you
through some of the basic concepts of optical communications. It discusses
some of the physics of light and how light can be manipulated, modulated and
transmitted to send information. It provides details of the components used
in light transmitters and receivers. It also describes some unique signal
processing techniques which can increase the practical
range of a communications system.

The book also gives you detailed information on building a long range
optical transceiver. The systems described can send voice information over a
range of several miles using simple components. The handbook also discloses
how some common components, such as fluorescent lamps, can be used for some
communications applications. Much of the information in the book has never
been revealed before. In short, this book provides sufficient information
for you to design and build your own unique system.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Looks fairly comprehensive - and includes some tested circuits with
actual waveforms, and schematics with parts values.

RF Jim


{Original Message removed}

2002\09\12@131833 by Robert E. Griffith

flavicon
face
Another general IR app note...
http://www.vishay.com/docs/fmod_general_overview.pdf

--BobG

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:17 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Infrared Communications

Here's a reference I just stumbled upon -

Title:
 "Handbook of Optical Through the Air Handbook"

Url:
 http://www.imagineeringezine.com/air-bk2.html

--- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- - --- -- -
About this Handbook

If you are an experimenter, engineer, scientist or educator, you can benefit
from the information contained in this handbook. The Handbook guides you
through some of the basic concepts of optical communications. It discusses
some of the physics of light and how light can be manipulated, modulated and
transmitted to send information. It provides details of the components used
in light transmitters and receivers. It also describes some unique signal
processing techniques which can increase the practical
range of a communications system.

The book also gives you detailed information on building a long range
optical transceiver. The systems described can send voice information over a
range of several miles using simple components. The handbook also discloses
how some common components, such as fluorescent lamps, can be used for some
communications applications. Much of the information in the book has never
been revealed before. In short, this book provides sufficient information
for you to design and build your own unique system.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Looks fairly comprehensive - and includes some tested circuits with
actual waveforms, and schematics with parts values.

RF Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Black" <spamBeGonefastvidspamBeGonespamEZY.NET.AU>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Infrared Communications


{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\13@052438 by Aart

picon face
Forgot to include the link:

http://www.prog-tech.co.uk/html/uir.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aart" <EraseMEaartspamGMX.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Infrared Communications


> > I suggest starting off by buying one of the many 38 kHz (or similar)
> > receiver modules intended for TV remote applications and trying that.
You
{Quote hidden}

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