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'[PIC]: IR remote control with a PIC, wake-on-rb-ch'
2002\08\03@194808 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello,

   We're wanting to make our own remote control for using with our
products. So, I'm doing some experiments with wake-on-rb-change, learning
remotes etc.

   One thing that is bothering me is how to make the power supply of a
remote control. An ideal supply would draw zero miliamps from the battery
when the PIC is sleeping. I could do the supply simply using a battery and a
78L05, but the regulator would draw some energy from the battery even
without the microcontroller.

   Any sugestion? Someone have the squematics of a remote control using a
PIC?

   Thank you very much,

   Brusque

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2002\08\04@022052 by Dale Botkin

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Why use a regulator?  Why not just a battery supply within PIC Vdd range?

Dale
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On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

>     One thing that is bothering me is how to make the power supply of a
> remote control. An ideal supply would draw zero miliamps from the battery
> when the PIC is sleeping. I could do the supply simply using a battery and a
> 78L05, but the regulator would draw some energy from the battery even
> without the microcontroller.

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2002\08\04@081358 by Olin Lathrop

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>     One thing that is bothering me is how to make the power supply of a
> remote control. An ideal supply would draw zero miliamps from the battery
> when the PIC is sleeping. I could do the supply simply using a battery and
a
> 78L05, but the regulator would draw some energy from the battery even
> without the microcontroller.

You can get "L" version PICs that run on a supply from 2V to 5.5V.  You
don't need a regulator as long as you can guarantee your battery can't
exceed 5.5V and 2V is essentially dead.  3x AAA cells, for example.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\08\04@092128 by Anand Dhuru

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Edson, why not use a 3 volt supply to begin with? Good enough for the PIC,
good enogh for the IR, and ideal for low power consumptin,

Anand Dhuru

{Original Message removed}

2002\08\04@130841 by rusque (Listas)
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Hello Olin,

> You can get "L" version PICs that run on a supply from 2V to 5.5V.  You
> don't need a regulator as long as you can guarantee your battery can't
> exceed 5.5V and 2V is essentially dead.  3x AAA cells, for example.

   mmm, I'm seeing at the 16F628 (the PIC I pretend to use) that it can
work @0-10MHz from 3V to 5.5V maybe I could make it with 3xAA cells and
without a regulator. I will use two or three infrared LEDs and maybe they
can't work bellow 3V.

   Another thing is that I'm hopping to put some learning capabilities on
it and all the more common IR receiver modules (that 3 pin thing that
resembles a transistor) seens to work from 3 to 5V IIRC.

   Thank you, I think I'll let that 78L05 go.

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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2002\08\04@132942 by A.J. Tufgar

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Edson,
     Have the second pole of all your buttons goto an 2 input or gate.
and the output of the or goto the pic power pin (you'll have to make
sure it handle you pic's current load or you'll have to put some sort
of driver behind it).  The other input goes to a pic i/o pin.

When a button is pressed it will turn your pic on via the or gate.
Your pic then changes the line going to the or gate high, so if the
user releases the button before your pic is done it keeps power to
itself.  When it's done set the line low and it will lose power.

Come to think you could use a s/r flip flop (all buttons to s) it would
probably be more reliable and when you wanted to turn off the pic you
could set r high.  Just be sure to get a good low power s/r flipflop.

Aaron

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2002\08\04@134009 by Roman Black

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There is a design for self switched PIC here:
http://www.romanblack.com/self_swi.htm

uses one cheap tiny (TO-92) SCR, and 2 resistors,
will work with a 7805 reg or just with the battery
and the PIC. :o)
-Roman




A.J. Tufgar wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\04@140306 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Roman,

> There is a design for self switched PIC here:
> http://www.romanblack.com/self_swi.htm

   as always, your design is very smart, congratulations. Maybe I'll use
it.

   The only think I don't like is that your web pages don't show very well
with Opera and I'll have to use IE (argh). :^)

   I'll do some measurings and will try to find a little SCR on our local
components shop.

   Thank you very much,

   Brusque

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2002\08\04@170623 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello,

   I'm making some measurements and I've found some interesting numbers.

   When sleeping, the PIC16F628@4MHz consumes about 42uA @ 5V. If I suply
it with some AA Alkaline batteries, it would mean rougly:
   2850mAh / 42uA = 67857 hours = 2827 days = 7.74 years without use.

   This is very good! When not sleeping, whe PIC consumes about 1mA:
   2850mAh / 1mA = 2850 hours = 118 days = 3.95 months with continuous use.

   Obviously, we have the Infrared LEDs, that can consume average about 3
mA (considering duty cycles and pauses between packets).
   2850mAh / (1+3)mA = 712.5 hours = 29,68 days with continuous use.

   This is very good figures, and this means that a 78L05 is a complete
waste of power. A 78L05 draws about 3mA when nothing is connected to it's
outputs. So, 3xAA batteries would be a very better option as a 16F628 can
work untill the batteries go down to 3V. When I'll put this on production,
I'll buy the 16LF628 that can work down to 2V.

   Thank you all for pointing me to the right direction.

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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2002\08\04@173814 by Russell McMahon

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>     When sleeping, the PIC16F628@4MHz consumes about 42uA @ 5V. If I suply
> it with some AA Alkaline batteries, it would mean rougly:
>     2850mAh / 42uA = 67857 hours = 2827 days = 7.74 years without use.

I know that this was only a calculation to determine how heavy the load was
compared to the battery's capacity but do note that an Alkaline battery has
a shelf life of around 3 years (some manufacturers claim longer). If you
produce equipment with very low current drains then the reduction in battery
capacity with time can make serious inroads into the actual operating time.
When that happens, Lithium batteries are a possible solution. In this
particular case it's not an issue as your expected  operating lifetime is
far shorter.

If a regulator IS required there are much lower quiescent current drain
versions than the 7805. For example the beautiful (but excessively
expensive) LM2936 draws about 20 uA with no load in real world use and
others draw even less.

Turning the processor off completely can also be useful in some
applications - eliminating the 42 uA off current MAY allow you to use
smaller batteries (but PLEASE don't use AAA's :-) ) and a more compact
design in some applications. As long as the startup time is quick enough for
your application you can achieve true zero current when off. There are ICs
that do this for you but you can achieve the same result with 2 (maybe 1)
transistors.



       Russell McMahon

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2002\08\04@211854 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Russel,

> If a regulator IS required there are much lower quiescent current drain
> versions than the 7805. For example the beautiful (but excessively
> expensive) LM2936 draws about 20 uA with no load in real world use and
> others draw even less.

   Thomas McGahee sugested a LDO circuit four months ago. It's not very
simple, but it could be made very cheap for low current applications.

> Turning the processor off completely can also be useful in some
> applications - eliminating the 42 uA off current MAY allow you to use
> smaller batteries (but PLEASE don't use AAA's :-) ) and a more compact
> design in some applications. As long as the startup time is quick enough
for
> your application you can achieve true zero current when off. There are ICs
> that do this for you but you can achieve the same result with 2 (maybe 1)
> transistors.

   Hehehe, I hate AAA's too. :) I'm thinking if I could adapt the Thomas
circuit so that the PIC can turn it off.

   Thanks,

   Brusque

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2002\08\04@233842 by Dale Botkin

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Let me see if I can remember how I did this...  it's been a while, but I
built a parallel printer tester back in about '92 or so, using an 8748.

Power was derived from a 9V battery or *any* wall-wart up to about 24V AC
or DC.  I used a bridge rectifier, followed by a P-MOSFET with the gate
tied high with a 100K resistor, as I recall.  Of course a voltage
regulator followed.  Power ON was by plugging into a printer cable with a
printer attached, which grounded the gate on the MOSFET -- of course this
could just as easily have been a pushbutton, but my design was completely
switchless.  One could very easily use a PIC output pin, set it LOW on
power up, tri-state it (make it an input) to shut down completely.  In my
printer tester, it just stayed turned on while plugged into a printer.
Pretty nice, you could throw it into a tool box without having to worry
about whether it was still on, or would get turned on by accident.

Hope this helps, and hope I didn't mis-remember any of the details.

Dale
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On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Roman Black wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\05@075152 by Alan B. Pearce

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>?>     When sleeping, the PIC16F628@4MHz consumes about 42uA @ 5V. If I
suply
>> it with some AA Alkaline batteries, it would mean rougly:
>>     2850mAh / 42uA = 67857 hours = 2827 days = 7.74 years without use.
>
>I know that this was only a calculation to determine how heavy the load was
>compared to the battery's capacity but do note that an Alkaline battery has
>a shelf life of around 3 years (some manufacturers claim longer). If you
>produce equipment with very low current drains then the reduction in
battery
>capacity with time can make serious inroads into the actual operating time.
>When that happens, Lithium batteries are a possible solution. In this
>particular case it's not an issue as your expected  operating lifetime is
>far shorter.

but you probably should put some sort of disclaimer in your instruction
manual recommending replacement of the batteries every 12 months (or
whatever lesser period you feel you need) "to ensure reliable operation of
the product".

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2002\08\05@084947 by Francisco Ares

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Many PICs run only with a 3V supply. I have one using a 16LC505 with a
4x4 key matrix  on port B and an IR LED in series with a 10R resistor
both driven by a transistor conected through a 1k resistor to one of the
PIC pins. It wakes up on port B change, so when a key is pressed it
sends an IR bit stream (it repeats four times the same code, just to
make sure it will be correctly received) related to the code of the
desired function and then it goes to sleep, and when the key is
released, the PIC wakes up once again, sending a "stop everithing" code.
It was not the best choice, sometimes the reception fails and I do not
get the function or I do not get the "stop" condition, but most of the
times it works.

Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\08\05@153336 by Roman Black

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Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:
>
> Hello Roman,
>
> > There is a design for self switched PIC here:
> > http://www.romanblack.com/self_swi.htm
>
>     as always, your design is very smart, congratulations. Maybe I'll use
> it.

Thanks!

>
>     The only think I don't like is that your web pages don't show very well
> with Opera and I'll have to use IE (argh). :^)

Wow!! I deliberately use only the two most basic
html commands [img src=] for pictures and and [a href=]
for navigation links, these are standards and should be
supported by every browser under the sun. There are no
frames, java, flash or ANYTHING that can cause problems.
What problems did you get? :o(
-Roman

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2002\08\05@163053 by rusque (Listas)

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Hello Roman,

> Wow!! I deliberately use only the two most basic
> html commands [img src=] for pictures and and [a href=]
> for navigation links, these are standards and should be
> supported by every browser under the sun. There are no
> frames, java, flash or ANYTHING that can cause problems.
> What problems did you get? :o(

   It's probably is a problem with Opera. The section from "the circuit
shown" and bellow show without any linefeeds. It seens you don't have any
0x0D/0x0A characters sequence, but I'm looking at the source code and the
line-break characters are there.

   Strange...

   Best regards,

   Brusque

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2002\08\05@174710 by Roman Black

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Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>     I'm making some measurements and I've found some interesting numbers.
>
>     When sleeping, the PIC16F628@4MHz consumes about 42uA @ 5V. If I suply
> it with some AA Alkaline batteries, it would mean rougly:
>     2850mAh / 42uA = 67857 hours = 2827 days = 7.74 years without use.


Not true! :o) The capacity as shown is generally
for 10 or 20 hour discharge times. These are high
enough currents that internal leakage current does
not affect the capacity. Once you factor very slow
discharge currents the internal leakage may be much
more than your 42uA PIC. Probably about double,
which would explain shelf lifes of 3 years etc. ;o)
-Roman

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2002\08\06@073327 by Francisco Ares

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Try Mozilla 1.1b (quite stable now), as you don4t like M$IE ;-)

Francisco


Edson Brusque (Listas) wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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