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'[PIC]: IDE interfacing - what about the file syste'
2002\03\20@060629 by John Walshe

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face
I've been watching the IDE interface thread with interest but it looks now
ready to stop, but leaves me with an unanswered question. What about the
file system. How difficult is it to convert the data returned by the drive
into a file that makes sense. Does the drive look after the linking of the
sectors to make the file or how is all that done. In your opinion where is
the best place to get a good explanation of the file system (my PC uses
Fat32 - I think - must check).

My reason for asking is that I have just been given a pair of 48MB compact
flash cards with can be directly connected to the IDE - and I'm thinking
MPEG player for the car/camper. Obviously I'd like to load the files from my
PC and then be able to play them in a homebrew player in the car.

John

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2002\03\20@093236 by ael E Maj ACC/XPPI

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The drive has no mechanism to piece sectors together to form a file.  This
is the function of a the file system.. i.e. FAT12/16/32. which keeps track
of the various links required to "build" a file.  Check
http://www.mp3projects.com/docs.html#ide for a good explanation of file
systems.

I've had good success implementing a limited FAT32 with a 877.  Things are
surprising simple if the drive is unfragmented and all files are contained
in the "root" directory.

Mike

{Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@094456 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
There is a copy of a document on the Microsoft web site which describes very
accurately the FAT file systems. It gives pseudo C code for working through
the files. It also gives some caveats about the way some people try to
simplify their code and get things wrong, and why it is wrong.

Look for a file called "fatgen102.pdf" at http://www.microsoft.com

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2002\03\20@095853 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>There is a copy of a document on the Microsoft web site which describes
very
>accurately the FAT file systems. It gives pseudo C code for working through
>the files. It also gives some caveats about the way some people try to
>simplify their code and get things wrong, and why it is wrong.

>Look for a file called "fatgen102.pdf" at http://www.microsoft.com


Actually it is now Fatgen103.pdf, also as a Word format document here when I
go and check

http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/hardware/fatgendown.asp?

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2002\03\20@103426 by Herbert Graf

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face
> I've been watching the IDE interface thread with interest but it looks now
> ready to stop, but leaves me with an unanswered question. What about the
> file system. How difficult is it to convert the data returned by the drive
> into a file that makes sense. Does the drive look after the linking of the
> sectors to make the file or how is all that done. In your opinion where is
> the best place to get a good explanation of the file system (my PC uses
> Fat32 - I think - must check).
>
> My reason for asking is that I have just been given a pair of 48MB compact
> flash cards with can be directly connected to the IDE - and I'm thinking
> MPEG player for the car/camper. Obviously I'd like to load the
> files from my
> PC and then be able to play them in a homebrew player in the car.

       Actually implementing the file system can range from very simple to
extrememly difficult with the resources of a PIC. I'm opting for relatively
simple approach. My drive will only have one file in the root directory, and
the PIC will only ADD to that file, so my task is relatively simple since:

1. only one file, so only one directory entry to keep up to date
2. no fragmentation
3. no worrying about long file names and deleted files

You COULD implement much more, but for my application it's just not
necessary. FWIW I'm not at that stage yet, still can't get the drive to
respond correctly to LBA mode, damn... TTYL

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2002\03\20@111603 by John Walshe

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Thanks Alan/Michael,
time to collect some bed-time reading !
John

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2002\03\20@113903 by ael E Maj ACC/XPPI

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Here are the steps I've taken to get LBA up and working...Reading the first
sector

1. Disk Spinup Command (hE1) (checking BSY Bit during command/reg write)
2. Check for Disk Busy (BSY Bit) (may not be required?)
3. Check for Disk Ready (RDY Bit) (may not be required?)
4. Disk Recalibrate command (h10)(checking BSY Bit during command/reg
write)(may not be required?)
5. Write the five LBA reg (Sector, M/Lsb Cylinder regs = 0, Head =
'1110:0000', Sector Count = 1)  (checking BSY Bit during command/reg write)
6. Read Sector Command (h20)(checking BSY Bit during command/reg write)
7. Check for Disk Data Ready (DRQ Bit)
8. Set the address to read data
9. First sector is loaded and waiting (256 toggle on the IDE_RD_Pin)

Good Luck
Mike


{Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@115411 by Jon Baker

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> From: John Walshe [spam_OUTJohn.WalsheTakeThisOuTspamINPACTMICRO.COM]

> I've been watching the IDE interface thread with interest but it looks now
> ready to stop, but leaves me with an unanswered question. What about the
> file system. How difficult is it to convert the data returned by the drive
> into a file that makes sense. Does the drive look after the linking of the
> sectors to make the file or how is all that done. In your opinion where is
> the best place to get a good explanation of the file system (my PC uses
> Fat32 - I think - must check).

I have been working on an microcontroller ide project for some time now and
it should be ready for display pretty soon. I think I am going about it a
different way though : My 877, tiny bit of external ram and firmware is
designed to be a complete ide and filesystem implementation with a friendly
programming interface, so you could for intance read and write files using
your 16f84s. The whole firmware is written in a very modular way, so you
could take the ide module, the fat16 module and the spi module, compile that
and flash the chip for one project, or ide, fat32 and i2c for a different
project. I hope to implement more filesystems if the board becomes popular-
ntfs, ext2 etc.. but I havent looked into the specifics of either of those
yet.

Do you think an off the shelf ide and filesystem would be a hit? or am I
just writing this for myself :)

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2002\03\20@125820 by Tim Webb

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face
Would it be any easier to communicate to a USB Hard Drive or is it just as
difficult to talk to an IDE interface.
I'm wondering if there is already some type of interface already out there
that would handle all of the critical parts of creating a file on a floppy
drive.

I think it would be cool to be able to store a data in a text file from a
pic on to a floppy disk and then be able read the data on the PC.


{Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@130000 by Barry Michels

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What's the drive model number?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <.....mailinglistKILLspamspam@spam@FARCITE.NET>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IDE interfacing - what about the file system


> still can't get the drive to respond correctly to LBA mode, damn... TTYL

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2002\03\20@140232 by Herbert Graf

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I'd don't have it on hand at the moment. It's a Toshiba 2.5" laptop drive,
1.6GB. I got a couple of them (2 for $25 CND) just for this purpose (since
they don't need 12V), and they are small and quiet. The ID command says they
support LBA, putting them in a machine and letting the BIOS figure out what
they are indicates they support LBA, when I excecute a sector read with LBA
set I don't get an error, but the data is all 4F4F (256 words of it, the
correct number of data). If I switch to CHS mode it works fine (I'm just
trying to read the partition table for now, absolute sector 0, cylinder 0,
head 0, sector 1). Maybe they don't actually support LBA even though the
bitfield suggests they do? Thanks, TTYL

> {Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@142232 by SkinTech

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face
Jon,

How about an USB-to-IDE translator (with of course an USB driver posing as
an IDE drive)? That way, we could easily add lots of hard drives, CD/RWetc
for back-up etc to our laptops.
Yeah I know, I should do it myself, but you DID ask for ideas..

Cheers, Jan Didden

{Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@145301 by WEBB,TIM (A-Sonoma,ex1)

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I think it's already been done.  Check out this site.

http://www.usb-port.com/ud100.html




-----Original Message-----
From: SkinTech [.....jan.diddenKILLspamspam.....SKINTECH.BE]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:17 AM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IDE interfacing - what about the file system


Jon,

How about an USB-to-IDE translator (with of course an USB driver posing as
an IDE drive)? That way, we could easily add lots of hard drives, CD/RWetc
for back-up etc to our laptops.
Yeah I know, I should do it myself, but you DID ask for ideas..

Cheers, Jan Didden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Baker" <jonspamspam_OUTHAYSEED.NET>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IDE interfacing - what about the file system


> > From: John Walshe [KILLspamJohn.WalsheKILLspamspamINPACTMICRO.COM]
>
> > I've been watching the IDE interface thread with interest but it looks
now
> > ready to stop, but leaves me with an unanswered question. What about the
> > file system. How difficult is it to convert the data returned by the
drive
> > into a file that makes sense. Does the drive look after the linking of
the
> > sectors to make the file or how is all that done. In your opinion where
is
> > the best place to get a good explanation of the file system (my PC uses
> > Fat32 - I think - must check).
>
> I have been working on an microcontroller ide project for some time now
and
> it should be ready for display pretty soon. I think I am going about it a
> different way though : My 877, tiny bit of external ram and firmware is
> designed to be a complete ide and filesystem implementation with a
friendly
> programming interface, so you could for intance read and write files using
> your 16f84s. The whole firmware is written in a very modular way, so you
> could take the ide module, the fat16 module and the spi module, compile
that
> and flash the chip for one project, or ide, fat32 and i2c for a different
> project. I hope to implement more filesystems if the board becomes
popular-
{Quote hidden}

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2002\03\20@191624 by Herbert Graf

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face
The drive model number is MK2720FC ZE01, made by Toshiba. 1358MB (CYL2633,
H16, S63). Thanks, TTYL

> {Original Message removed}

2002\03\20@211755 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I'm wondering if there is already some type of interface already out there
> that would handle all of the critical parts of creating a file on a floppy
> drive.
>
> I think it would be cool to be able to store a data in a text file from a
> pic on to a floppy disk and then be able read the data on the PC.

Talking to a floppy directly from a PIC will be much harder than talking to
an IDE drive.  The floppy bus was invented by Shugart, who was making drives.
They tried to make as much as possible someone else's problem, whether it
made sense from an overall system point of view or not.  The data on the
floppy bus is pulses for flux transitions.  At least with IDE you can talk
in sectors.  If you really want to talk to a floppy, using a controller chip
will save a lot of trouble.  Unfortunately, these aren't made any more (as
far as I know).  The floppy disk controller nowadays is integrated into a
corner of the silicon for implementing the "standard" motherboard devices on
PC systems.

I've just recently completed a project that had to do with a 16F877
connected to a floppy bus, so I'm familiar with what goes over that bus.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolinTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\03\21@065825 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:33:38PM -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > I'm wondering if there is already some type of interface already out there
> > that would handle all of the critical parts of creating a file on a floppy
> > drive.
> >
> > I think it would be cool to be able to store a data in a text file from a
> > pic on to a floppy disk and then be able read the data on the PC.
>
> Talking to a floppy directly from a PIC will be much harder than talking to
> an IDE drive.  The floppy bus was invented by Shugart, who was making drives.
> They tried to make as much as possible someone else's problem, whether it
> made sense from an overall system point of view or not.  The data on the
> floppy bus is pulses for flux transitions.  At least with IDE you can talk
> in sectors.  If you really want to talk to a floppy, using a controller chip
> will save a lot of trouble.  Unfortunately, these aren't made any more (as
> far as I know).  The floppy disk controller nowadays is integrated into a
> corner of the silicon for implementing the "standard" motherboard devices on
> PC systems.

Correct.

The solution I thought of but haven't had a chance to implement was using
an LS-120 drive. It reads and writes floppies but has a standard IDE
interface. I haven't investigated it very throughly but it would seem that
since the IDE interface is the only one on the drive that it would have
to be used to interface to the floppy and not just the LS120 disk.
>
> I've just recently completed a project that had to do with a 16F877
> connected to a floppy bus, so I'm familiar with what goes over that bus.

Sounds painful.

BAJ

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2002\03\21@091202 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> The solution I thought of but haven't had a chance to implement was using
> an LS-120 drive. It reads and writes floppies but has a standard IDE
> interface. I haven't investigated it very throughly but it would seem that
> since the IDE interface is the only one on the drive that it would have
> to be used to interface to the floppy and not just the LS120 disk.

That's a good idea, except the LS-120 drives are now obsolete too.  Too bad
they didn't get the right marketing.  I thought LS-120 drives were a good
idea.  I had one in all my systems and used them for backup and sneaker net
of larger data.  I just recently purged all the LS-120 drives and put CD-RW
drives in all my systems.

> > I've just recently completed a project that had to do with a 16F877
> > connected to a floppy bus, so I'm familiar with what goes over that bus.
>
> Sounds painful.

I had a blast, actually.  I always wondered what the floppy bus was like, so
I didn't mind at all getting paid to find out.  The customer wanted a device
that would act like a floppy from the PC's point of view, so I didn't have
to deal with the low level formatting and file system issues.  I couldn't
find definative answers to a few details, so I wasn't quite sure if the
strategy I picked was correct until it worked for the first time.  It was
cool to see a 16F877, 16F628, 16F876, and a separate management PC all
working together.  Lots of blinky lights helped too.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
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2002\03\21@091728 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> > I've just recently completed a project that had to do with a 16F877
> > connected to a floppy bus, so I'm familiar with what goes over that bus.
>
> Where did you find the bus specs?

On the web.

> I've been searching everywhere for them.

I spent about two hours with Google and found enough documents to take a
stab at the design.  The stuff is out there, but mostly in pieces.  Some
information came from old data sheets for obsolete stand-alone floppy
controller chips.  The drive manufacturers provide some documentation.  The
best overall guide was the paper "The floppy user guide" by Michael Haardt,
Alain Knaff, and David Niemi.  I don't have the URL anymore, but I found it
(and all the other info) by searching with Google in the first place, so you
should be able to find this specific citation quickly.

By the way, please fix your mailer settings to not specifically set the
REPLY address.  The list server won't set it to the list, and everyone that
replies to you has to notice you did this, then manually edit the TO address
to go to the list.


********************************************************************
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2002\03\21@100754 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>so I wasn't quite sure if the strategy I picked was
>correct until it worked for the first time.  It was
>cool to see a 16F877, 16F628, 16F876, and a separate
>management PC all working together.

DO you mean that what you built looked like a floppy drive? From the earlier
messages I thought you had built a floppy controller, but I was just skim
reading it.

>Lots of blinky lights helped too.

Oh yes always - gotta keep those who watch films happy when they see the
real thing :) Doesn't matter to them what the diagnostic value of the lights
is.

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2002\03\21@123806 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> >so I wasn't quite sure if the strategy I picked was
> >correct until it worked for the first time.  It was
> >cool to see a 16F877, 16F628, 16F876, and a separate
> >management PC all working together.
>
> DO you mean that what you built looked like a floppy drive?

Yes.

> From the earlier
> messages I thought you had built a floppy controller, but I was just skim
> reading it.

All I said was that I had a 16F877 connected to a floppy bus.


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2002\03\23@031643 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>> Where did you find the bus specs?
>
>On the web.
>
>> I've been searching everywhere for them.
>
>I spent about two hours with Google and found enough documents to take a
>stab at the design.  The stuff is out there, but mostly in pieces.

I undestand that you (Olin L.) built an interface to a Commodore-stype
integrated floppy ? Because I know of no way to synchronize a PIC to the
raw data stream of a floppy drive ?

tia,

Peter

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2002\03\23@120749 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I undestand that you (Olin L.) built an interface to a Commodore-stype
> integrated floppy ? Because I know of no way to synchronize a PIC to the
> raw data stream of a floppy drive ?

This story gets better every time I hear it.  I built an interface to the
standard PC floppy bus, which I believe traces its ancestry to Shugart.
This is the first I have heard anyone talk about Commodore.

The unit I built acts like a floppy drive from the PC's point of view.  The
PC can format it, load the FAT file system on it, read/write files, and even
boot from it.  In short, it acts just like another floppy drive.  The unit
is inserted in the floppy bus between the motherboard and the first floppy.
It can act as the A: drive and essentially disconnect the real A: drive, or
it can disconnect itself and let the real A: drive talk to the system
normally.

Floppy drives provide the synchronization pulses, not the controller.  The
motor in a real floppy runs at a fixed speed (5Hz), but is not synchronized
to any clock.  The floppy disk controller syncrhonizes to the motor.
However, with relatively minor hardware changes and some firmware changes, I
could make it talk directly to the real floppy drive it is already connected
to.  I see no reason the 16F877 couldn't be synchronized to the real floppy
drive.


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2002\03\23@172426 by Benjamin Bromilow

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I believe the mp3ar project http://www.mp3ar.com uses a laptop HD. The source code
was available last time I looked and used a 16F877. Might be code snippets
there. I've just had a look at the site but it appears their monthly
bandwidth has been used up at FreeServers so the site cannot be viewed until
next month. Never seen that one before!!!

B

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2002\03\23@180444 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Try to go there.
http://www.mp3ar.com :

Monthly Bandwidth Exceeded
The site you are looking for, http://www.mp3ar.com has exceeded its monthly
bandwidth limit and has been disabled until the end of the month. On
04/01/2002, this site will again be available.

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL


{Original Message removed}

2002\03\25@125211 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Ah, ok, now I understand. Everyone was talking about building the part
that talks to a real floppy drive. The Commodore external drives used a
special serial format that is very easy to interface (RS485 like more or
less). This is do-able with a PIC. Still no room to fit a sector in a PIC
though and do proper FAT processing.

Quoted context:
...

> I undestand that you (Olin L.) built an interface to a Commodore-stype
> integrated floppy ? Because I know of no way to synchronize a PIC to the
> raw data stream of a floppy drive ?

This story gets better every time I hear it.  I built an interface to the
standard PC floppy bus, which I believe traces its ancestry to Shugart.
This is the first I have heard anyone talk about Commodore.

The unit I built acts like a floppy drive from the PC's point of view.
The PC can format it, load the FAT file system on it, read/write files,
and even boot from it.  In short, it acts just like another floppy drive.
The unit

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2002\03\26@134313 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Years ago, I built a product using the Commodore 1541 floppy drive for
program storage. This was a Motorola 6802 based system. I still have the
source code if anyone is interested...  I still have a Commodore 1541
here so I can do customer support.

Harold

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:30:58 +0200 "Peter L. Peres" <RemoveMEplpKILLspamspamACTCOM.CO.IL>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\03\27@184851 by Herbert Graf

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face
> I believe the mp3ar project http://www.mp3ar.com uses a laptop HD. The
> source code
> was available last time I looked and used a 16F877. Might be code snippets
> there. I've just had a look at the site but it appears their monthly
> bandwidth has been used up at FreeServers so the site cannot be
> viewed until
> next month. Never seen that one before!!!

       Well, just in case anybody is interested I redid part of my code to be more
interactive (I can now read and write registers by hand instead of just
letting the PIC do what I program it), and it seems my problems are due to
these laptop drives I have. It seems that the first read (either CHS or LBA)
works, but any subsequent read (either of the same sector or of a different
one) results in the hard drive hanging the data bus with D0. Nothing I do,
short of toggling the reset line brings it out of this state. I can execute
a read and then do a whole bunch of other things (even a software reset),
but if I read again (command 0x20) it hangs the bus. I say it is these
drives because I have another drive lying around that seems to work
perfectly.

       It might be a moot point anyways, in the end I want to use this inside a
car and it turns out that laptop drivers are much more shock resistant then
desktop drives, at least not enough to be safe in a car. I might just go for
it anyways to see how it turns out, I don't know yet. Anybody ever try going
"outside" of the specs when it comes to hard drives? (mainly in the G shock
area?) Temperature is not a problem since it will be used in a data logging
application and I plan to use a peltier junction to warm the drive up slowly
to spec and then start it up.

       Worst comes to worst I can always just stick a compactflash to IDE adapter
in there and use a CF card, they are MUCH more resilient! Plus my digital
camera uses them... :)

Thanks for any info. TTYL

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2002\03\27@220429 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Herbert Graf wrote:
>         It might be a moot point anyways, in the end I want to use
> this inside a car and it turns out that laptop drivers are much more
> shock resistant then desktop drives, at least not enough to be safe in
> a car.

I researched this quite a bit a few years ago before I built my original
mp3 player for car use. I settled on Maxtor 3.5 inch desktop hard drives,
based on the operating spec.

4 years later, I have never had a problem with that drive, and it survived
a 50 MPH head-on collision last week. I don't know if the drive recal'ed
when I hit, but the music never stopped.

That's rugged enough for me. And my neck hurts.

Sure, laptop drives are more rugged. I'm not going to "test" it :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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2002\03\27@232238 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Bob,

Wow! I take it you had your seatbelt on? :-) Thank God you are here to tell
us about it!

How did you have the unit with the drive in it secured in the car?

Sean

At 07:02 PM 3/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\03\28@142813 by Bob Blick

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>
> How did you have the unit with the drive in it secured in the car?

It was under the seat on the carpet. There's a hump in the floor, so it
didn't flew forward. It wasn't really secured, just no place to go.

Insurance companies are proving to be the biggest pain in my life right
now. And I'm not the one at fault!

Well, this is getting too [OT] :)

Cheers,

Bob

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2002\03\28@172556 by M. Adam Davis

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face
Sounds like a story you can expand on and tell young'uns after saying
something like "They don't build 'em like they used ta."

"Back in my day someone ran into me at 50MPH, and the hard drive didn't
skip a beat!  Well, it didn't until I threw it at the stupid son of a
gun that ran into me."

-Adam

Bob Blick wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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