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'[PIC]: ICSP'
2000\09\28@174741 by Tony Nixon

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Hi all,

Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
what ever else is required for ICSP.

I want to have a 'play' in this area.


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2000\09\28@205526 by Andy Howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Nixon" <Tony.NixonspamKILLspamENG.MONASH.EDU.AU>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:45 PM
Subject: [PIC]: ICSP


> Hi all,
>
> Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
> what ever else is required for ICSP.
> I want to have a 'play' in this area.

By coincidence when I read your message I'd just finished reading the
microchip document 30277B.pdf which is a compilation of their various App
Notes and Tech Briefs about ICSP.  It has pretty much everything you need to
know to implement it, albeit in a lengthier form than perhaps is strictly
necessary.

I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field upgrades
so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
with it.





.

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2000\09\28@220403 by Dan Michaels

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Andy Howard wrote:
.........
>I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field upgrades
>so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
>with it.
>

I talked with Jeff of melabs a few weeks ago about using the
EPIC programmer for ICSP, and the major gotcha he mentioned was
regarding the exact cktry tied to /MCLR pin on the PIC. You have
to make sure you can pull the pin high fast enough [goes to current
drive out of the programmer], and also that the programmer doesn't
affect Vcc by backfeeding thru the /MCLR ckt.

Apparently, on some marginal P/S designs, Vpp can pull up the Vcc
bus. Maybe low current regulators, whatever. I did try this and
found Vpp actually kicked up the output of a 7805 [1A v.reg] a
couple of tenths of a volt. Have to watch the size of the pullup
resistor on /MCLR - ie, not too low - if that is all you have
on the pin. If you put a cap there, then you may not be able to
pull the pin up fast enough.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Techonlogies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
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2000\09\28@225156 by Andy Howard

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Michaels" <@spam@oricomKILLspamspamUSWEST.NET>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: ICSP


> Andy Howard wrote:
> .........
> >I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field
upgrades
> >so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to
play
{Quote hidden}

Thanks for that Dan, the Vpp/Vcc interaction looks like a classic gotcha.
I'll certainly look out for that one.
In the Mchip documents they suggest fitting a Schottky diode between the R-C
junction and the MCLR/Vpp pin to isolate the capacitor and resistor.

















.

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2000\09\29@004553 by Dan Michaels

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Andy Howard wrote:
> .........
>Thanks for that Dan, the Vpp/Vcc interaction looks like a classic gotcha.
>I'll certainly look out for that one.
>In the Mchip documents they suggest fitting a Schottky diode between the R-C
>junction and the MCLR/Vpp pin to isolate the capacitor and resistor.
>


On the diagram that comes with the EPIC programmer, they show
Vpp straight thru to /MCLR, which has a 10K pullup R to Vcc
with a 1N4148 diode in series [pointing at the /MCLR pin,
of course]. For normal ops, this would put a little under
5v on /MCLR. I haven't tried it, but imagine they did.

- dan michaels

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2000\09\29@053212 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

We have incorporated this on a product in development and it works just
fine.  The our ICSP socket can be used for either programming or for the
ICD, very usefull.

Mike

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2000\09\29@054500 by staff

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Andy Howard wrote:
{Quote hidden}

==========================================================
I posted this before, you are welcome to it. If you don't have
access to a picstart plus programmer and don't want to spend
the $250 AU for one, search for NOPPP "no parts pic programmer"
on the net. It has a few cheap parts and all source code and
description of how it works.

-Roman

==========================================================
Hi, don't know if this will help anyone, but on the main
tech.microchip forum I saw a few people asking about using
a picstart plus (PSP) to give in-circuit programming (ICSP)
of applications using flash chips like 16F84 ad 16F877 etc.

With the help of two guys that posted there who had done it
before I was able to get it happening pretty easy, and thought
I might post details here for reference of anyone (especially
newbies to ICSP) who might want to do this at some point.

----------------------------------------------
How to use Picstart Plus to do ICSP (on 16F84)
----------------------------------------------
Firstly I made a simple header. This is a long-legged 18pin
socket to go into the PSP, with four wires soldered to it.

Here are the wires:

* Gnd (Vss) -----       ground wire
* MCLR      --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB7       --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB6       --R--       470 ohm series resistor

These connect to the same PIC pins on the app, in my case
I designed the app board with the 470 ohm resistors on the
board and a nice plug for the ICSP.

Important, I used no capacitors on the app on the MCLR
pin. I just used a 68,000 ohm resistor to hold the MCLR
high to 5v when in normal operating mode. This is very simple,
and has low parts cost.

To program the app, I simply connected power to it (via
a on/off switch) from my regular power source not from
the PSP. The PSP does NOT power the amp or the pic when
programming in this circuit. I connected the ground from
the PSP to the ground of the app's power supply of course.

One the app was powered, the PSP holds the app in reset
mode as it holds the MCLR pin at 0v. Then I used MPLAB
as normal to program or read the 16F84 in the app. This
works as normal, like when programming a 16F84 in the
socket of the PSP.

When programming is complete I can just switch the app
power off, unplug the programming plug, and switch the
app power back on to run the app as normal. Quick and easy!

Just a couple of notes, app's that use a "reset" chip on
the MCLR line may need to make some changes to ensure that
the PSP can draw the MCLR line to 13v very quickly to
ensure good programming. Also my app used the RB7 and RB6
as inputs, so also using these for the ICSP gave no problems.
I tested adding 10k resistors to both these pins to 0v,
and tested again with the 10k resistors to 5v. Both cases the
ICSP still worked fine. I would guess that means that you
don't need to "buffer" these pins but simply use a 10k
resistor to your circuit and you can still use them as inputs.

I have programmed the thing with a number of 16F84 chips,
and programmed it a couple of hundred times with NO program
or read failures (unless I forget to switch the app on
before programming!).

I know this is a long letter and I apologise to the PIC
experts who probably know all of this, just seen a few
newbies ask about ICSP lately and not everyone has the
budget or desire to spend big bucks on ICSP.
YES, you CAN do ICSP with a picstart plus.

Roman

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2000\09\29@073437 by Jim Robertson

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At 08:43 PM 29/09/00 +1000, you wrote:

Piclisters,

After reading Roman's useful stuff below please consider
this question...

Would it be useful to anyone if the adapter below could be
used for ALL ICSP PICs with the picstart plus. In other
words no need to make up separate adapters for different
pinouts.

I had this feature in the recently released warpcore driver
but I removed it at the last minute as I didn't want people
forgetting to turn this mode off to program normally again.

I have a similar feature on the WARP-13 as it has a purpose
fitted ICSP port.

Speak-up if you are interested and I will re-enable this
option.

-Jim



{Quote hidden}

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: EraseMEnewfoundspampipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.

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2000\09\29@085011 by John Gerthoffer

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Make SURE you use signal isolation.  We have LCD data lines connected to the
pins used for ICSP clock and data.  Originally it wasn't a problem.  Over
time, certain situations would really create havoc.  In our case, we put a
1K series resistor in between the PIC and the LCD.  Simple, but effective.


John Gerthoffer
Software Engineer
American Auto-Matrix, Inc.
Smart Building Solutions


{Original Message removed}

2000\09\29@090901 by David Kott

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>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
> > what ever else is required for ICSP.
> > I want to have a 'play' in this area.
>
> By coincidence when I read your message I'd just finished reading the
> microchip document 30277B.pdf which is a compilation of their various App
> Notes and Tech Briefs about ICSP.  It has pretty much everything you need
to
> know to implement it, albeit in a lengthier form than perhaps is strictly
> necessary.
>
> I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field
upgrades
> so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
> with it.

I posted this recently in reply to a PIClister who asked about the
differences between programming a 'C63 and an F873.

There are gotchas with the F87X series that ICSPers should be aware of.
Namely, the 'F87X's come prepped from the factory with "Low Voltage
Programming" mode enabled.  When this mode is enabled, you *must* bias pin
RB3 low to allow the device to be programmed with the LVP bit off,
specifically
using the "high voltage" programming method.  This is not, IMHO, intuitively
obvious when referencing Microchip documentation.

However, as soon as you successfully program the flash device with a
configuration word set with Low Voltage Programming disabled, you
don't need to bias the RB3 pin when you subsequently program the
device, thus a 5 pin ICSP connector will suffice.

My programming adapter cable consists of an IC socket, some 5" wires
soldered
to some of the socket pins and a 5 pin housing which connects to
a matching ICSP header on my circuit board.

The pins I have brought out to my programming header are as follows:

RB7        Soldered to pin 28 of my IC socket adapter.
RB6        Soldered to pin 27 of my IC socket adapter.
MCLR    Soldered to pin 1 of my IC socket adapter.
Vss (System ground.  This pin connects to both pin 8 and pin 19 of my SO
package on the PCB)    Soldered to pin 8 of my IC socket adapter.
Vdd (System power)    Soldered to pin 20 of my IC socket adapter.

In other terms:

ICSP Header         IC Programming adapter
RB7  ------------- Pin 28
RB6 ------------- Pin 27
MCLR ------------- Pin 1
Vss ------------- Pin 8
Vdd ------------- Pin 20

Normally, my PICStart cannot power my entire circuit.  So, I merely enable
my circuit's system power before attempting to connect the PICStart to my
circuit.

You may elect to not connect system power to your ICSP header, however I
strongly suggest that you standardize your ICSP header in your organization,
and provide all 5 signals on it.  You may subsequently choose to not
populate the Vdd power pin on your PICStart plus adapter if you feel this is
not necessary.  The high voltage programming method doesn't require that a
programmer cycle the power to the PIC in order to program it.  However, I
*do* believe that Low Voltage programming *does* require that the power be
cycled to place the processor in that mode.

Since I use my PICStart plus to program my 'F87X's devices with "high
voltage programming mode" I don't need to export RB3 to an ICSP header.
However, I *do* have to bias that pin low the very first time I use it.  My
PCB has a 100K resistor to do just that.

So, the options are thus:
   Export your RB3 pin to your ICSP programming header to allow the
programming method to be set by the programmer, and allow LVP.
OR
   bias pin RB3 low the *first* time you attempt to program the processor
using the "high voltage" programming mode.  Subsequent programming
must be using the "high voltage" programming method.

My first attempts at ICSP with these devices failed namely because I hadn't
biased RB3 properly.  I simply read the Microchip EEPROM Memory Programming
Specification:

"The program/verify mode is entered by holding pins
RB6 and RB7 low while raising MCLR pin from VIL to
VIHH (high voltage). In this mode, the state of the RB3
pin does not effect programming." (c)

However, reading further:

"...an erased device will have the LVP bit
enabled at the factory." (c)

and:

"To disable low voltage ICSP mode, the LVP bit must be
programmed to '0'. This must be done while entered
with high voltage entry mode (LVP bit= 1). RB3 is now
a general purpose I/O pin." (c)

However, my boards program properly via my 5 way ICSP header now that I have
gotten past this "feature" of the F87X family.

See the Microchip "EEPROM Memory Programming Specification" and "How to
Implement ICSP Using PIC16F8X FLASH MCUs", Tech Brief  TB016 at
http://www.microchip.com/Download/Appnote/Category/PIC16/91016b.pdf

-d

(c) Microchip Technology Inc.

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2000\09\29@091111 by staff

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Jim Robertson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jim, I don't understand how you could make this work?
Using the PicstartPlus I use MPLAB for the programmer
software, how would you make different pinouts work
with the 18 pin size only? Confused!
-Roman







{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC]: ICSP'
2002\02\13@085015 by Jafta
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Re-sent as I forgot the tag in my previous message:


Hi All

I have been programming with  PICSTART+ programmer and MPLAB for quite
a while.  As I have now moved to SOIC (16F628, 16F876/7), I wish to do
in-circuit programming.  The prices for adaptors (SOIC to DIL)
are absolutely crazy!

Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
pointers on how to go about it?

TYIA

Regards

Chris Albrecht

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2002\02\13@110810 by Alan Gorham

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>
>Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
>the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
>pointers on how to go about it?
>
>TYIA
>
>Regards
>
>Chris Albrecht
>

Hi Chris
I use the PS+ and an adapter to program a 16F874.
One or two things I picked up from the list are:

a) Ensure you have the latest version of MPLAB and also the PS+ firmware.
    I had problems with MPLAB v5.00 and PS+ v2.01 and had to upgrade for
ICSP.

b) Refer to page 136 of the 16f87x manual for details of which I/O pins will
be used for ICSP.
    Typically, RB6, RB7 are the serial data and clock pins and /MCLR/Vpp
will have the programming
    voltage applied to it. You have to isolate the /MCLR pin from Vcc when
in programming mode.
    Page 512 of the PIC midrange manual shows the connection you need
better than I can explain.

I use a 5-pin header in my application PCB to connect my ICSP lead to.

Hope this gives you a small start anyway!

Alan

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2002\02\13@121612 by Andre Abelian

picon face
Tyia,

Keep in your mind except base line pics all other
Pic gets programmed serially when you put then on PS+.
It uses RB6, RB7, MCLR, GND, 5V pins to program them.
For home use I think it is ok but for production use
I recommend PROMATE 2 with ICSP socket on it. I use
It for long time it is the best. I also use PGM2000
Not bad but once in a while I have to call them to make
It work or to pay for firmware update. Microchip never
Charged for firmware update and they always have the update on time.

Andre Abelian




{Quote hidden}

Hi Chris
I use the PS+ and an adapter to program a 16F874.
One or two things I picked up from the list are:

a) Ensure you have the latest version of MPLAB and also the PS+
firmware.
    I had problems with MPLAB v5.00 and PS+ v2.01 and had to upgrade
for
ICSP.

b) Refer to page 136 of the 16f87x manual for details of which I/O pins
will
be used for ICSP.
    Typically, RB6, RB7 are the serial data and clock pins and
/MCLR/Vpp
will have the programming
    voltage applied to it. You have to isolate the /MCLR pin from Vcc
when
in programming mode.
    Page 512 of the PIC midrange manual shows the connection you need
better than I can explain.

I use a 5-pin header in my application PCB to connect my ICSP lead to.

Hope this gives you a small start anyway!

Alan

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2002\02\14@080713 by Jafta

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Thanks Alan, I got it working.  Used your info with only a slight mod.
Now I have to get my circuit working without unplugging the
programmer.

Andre, I am using the PS+ only for proto's.  Onother company will do
the production.  Thanks for your feedback

Regards

Chris A

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\14@131815 by miked

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One idea that was posted here(I think) is to get one of those SOIC test clips that
clamp on the IC to bring out the pins for probe attachment. Solder wires from the
probe posts to a header type socket. Plug the socket into the burner and insert the
IC into the test clip(upside down).
{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\14@170744 by Stuart Meier

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picon face
> One idea that was posted here(I think) is to get one of those SOIC
test clips that
> clamp on the IC to bring out the pins for probe attachment. Solder
wires from the
> probe posts to a header type socket. Plug the socket into the burner
and insert the
> IC into the test clip(upside down).

Well, I asked about it in ...1999, and I have that suggestion it in my
personal Piclist archive, see below. YOu still Picstering Phil Eiserman?

5250 still available now, see
http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d5250-54_5437_1_01.pdf  it now
costs $12 from
http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=5250

I might just get round to buying one real soon now...

Stuart

<snip>
> Hi,
>
> > I have a bunch of smt SOIC PICS (12c508/16f84) to programme. The
> only socket
> > I have seen to take them costs #60 ($100)!

From: "Eisermann, Phil" <RemoveMEpeisermaTakeThisOuTspamspamRIDGID.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: 15 March 1999 14:31
Subject: Re: Programming smt PICS

       I found a SOIC clip that fits nicely onto an 8-pin
       SMT PIC. It's from ITT-Pomona (they are on the
       net, http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/), part #5250.

       I ordered it through a company called Hughes-Peters.
       cost was around $9 plus shipping.

       don't know how applicable it is for programming; i'd
       be afraid that the tension of the spring would break
       off (or at least bend) the fragile gull-wing leads.

       however, you could remove the spring, and use a small
       rubberband to hold the jaws together. The other end
       of the clip fits into the ZIF socket of my PICSTART+
       programmer. i'm not going to do that to my only SOIC
       clip, but if someone does try this, please post results
       to the list for our future enlightenment (or at least
       mine, i'm sure there will be a need sometime in the
       future).

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'[PIC]: icsp'
2003\08\11@141017 by g.f.faial
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Hello,
I'm trying to program the PIC16F873A using anther PIC.
Does anyone have code or info on how I can do this?
Gary-

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2003\08\11@141433 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I'm trying to program the PIC16F873A using anther PIC.
> Does anyone have code or info on how I can do this?

My Wisp628 is a PIC (actually 16F628) based programmer. The firmware (in
Jal) is available from the Wisp628 page. The Jal compiler is also
available. It can generate code for most flash PICs, so take your pick.
The accompanying PC software (XWisp) is also available.

Wouter van Ooijen

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consultancy, development, PICmicro products

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2003\08\12@030151 by Vasile Surducan

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then some free applications for 16F87x using jal:
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan/electro/PIC/pic.htm

top 10 wishes,
Vasile
http://surducan.netfirms.com


On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\08\12@041747 by Mike Singer

picon face
g.f.faial@NETZERO.NET wrote:
> I'm trying to program the PIC16F873A using anther PIC.
> Does anyone have code or info on how I can do this?

  PIC16F873A is produced by Microchip(did you here of it?).
Fortunately Microchip has it's www site http://www.microchip.com.
More fortunately this site has search box. You might wish
to enter (icsp programming) into this box and then click
on "Go" button. You'll get a lot of links to different info
on programming PICs over ICSP.
  Don't expect too much from first docs on ICSP. MChip
is famous for hiding necessary info among pdf files in
unpredictable way.

Good Luck,

Mike.

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'[pic]: ICSP'
2004\03\15@064346 by jisak
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Hi all

Do you know if it is possible to make ICSP with Picstart+ for 12fxxx,
and how ?

Thank you

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2004\03\15@112347 by Mike Hord

picon face
Sure, just make a header with the same pinout as the PIC and
run the leads out to your target board.

Just make sure to keep the current consumption down and
probably don't connect the VCC on your target to the VCC
on the PICSTART+.  Keep the wires short, as short as possible.

It has been done, but you're almost always better off just
getting an ICD2.

Mike H.

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2004\03\15@114045 by jisak

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Ok but it is necessary tu have some isolators( resistors i think ) on the target's pins do you know exactly what ?

Mike Hord a écrit:

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2004\03\15@131401 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]

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pic microcontroller discussion list wrote:
> Ok but it is necessary tu have some isolators( resistors i think ) on
> the target's pins do you know exactly what ?
>
> Mike Hord a écrit:
>
>> Sure, just make a header with the same pinout as the PIC and
>> run the leads out to your target board.
>>
>> Just make sure to keep the current consumption down and
>> probably don't connect the VCC on your target to the VCC
>> on the PICSTART+.  Keep the wires short, as short as possible.
>>
the isolation circuit depends on what else the pins are connected
to. Maybe some jumpers if it's a hobby project. you could use
the same thing for isolation Vdd.

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2004\03\15@200604 by James Nick Sears

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My P16PRO (cheap programmer board not designed for ICSP) would only
program in-circuit with 470ohm resistors in series with the programming
lines (NOT Vdd, Gnd).  Also it will almost never work if it is asked to
power the circuit on its own (which only consists of a PIC and
decoupling caps directly connected to Vdd), but with the resistors, a
very short cable, and 4.5V+ put to the target I get pretty decent
results.  Doing a full power down to the PIC (make sure you fully
discharge any caps) and then powering up right before beginning
programming (almost at the same time) seems to be a key sometimes as
well.  It is definitely a weak point in my setup though and I would like
to get a legitimate in-circuit programmer or add better drivers to what
I have.

Hope this helps.
Nick

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2004\03\15@211605 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:43 AM 3/15/2004, jisak wrote:
>Hi all
>
>Do you know if it is possible to make ICSP with Picstart+ for 12fxxx,
>and how ?

Yes.

First: search for "ICSP" at the Microchip website and build up the buffer
circuit shown in several of the app notes.  This takes care of Vdd + Vpp.

You may also need to buffer the serial clk and data lines.  I've mentioned
previously my "stoopid buffer circuit" - search the archives for that
string.  Note the silly spelling of "stoopid" - it should be easy to
find.  This very simple buffer is neat in that it allows bi-directional
communications with the programmer while having enough current gain to
drive fairly heavy loads connected to those PIC pins.  In my case, these
are 820 Ohm loads to Vdd - far too much load for the PS+ programmer to drive.

We've done up a little card that sits on top of the PS+ and comes out to a
connector that mates with one of our products.  I'll see if I can get the
files converted to GIF or JPG or whatever (right now, they are in HPGL
format).  The card works well with 12c508, 12c671 and 12F675 parts.  It
should work with all 12 bit & 14 bit parts but I have only used with the 3
part numbers mentioned.

dwayne

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2004\03\17@100605 by jisak

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Hello Dwayne,
I tried to search in piclist archives your"stoopid buffer circuit", but can't find it !
Can you help me ?
Thank you

Dwayne Reid a écrit:

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2004\03\17@201058 by Dwayne Reid

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At 08:03 AM 3/17/2004, jisak wrote:
>Hello Dwayne,
>I tried to search in piclist archives your"stoopid buffer circuit", but
>can't find it !
>Can you help me ?
>Thank you

Sure:  From Mar 7 2003:

You can try my stoopid (tm) buffer on the lines from the PS+: just haywire
up a couple of complimentary followers (1 each for clk & data).  I use
2n4401 / 2n4403: emitters connected together, bases connected together, PNP
C to gnd, NPN C to +5V, 330R between E & B, 100n Mono cap between the 2 Cs
for bypassing.  Bases go to the PS+, emitters go to the PICs being
programmed.  You really only need the 330R resistor between E & B on the
data line buffer but I put it on both lines in my setup.

When the PS+ is reading data, it does so via the 330R resistor.  When the
PS+ is sending data, the buffers help clean up the signal and provide
significant drive current if you are fighting other loads connected to the
programming pins.

Make the ground line from your board to the PS+ as heavy and low inductance
as you can.  Solder wick or the braided shield removed from RG-58 makes a
good ground line (shrink some tubing over it).

<end of copy>

dwayne

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(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

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