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'[PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD'
2000\12\07@123514 by David Gomez Otero

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Hi,

this is my first day in this list, I thanks heaven for having found this list !!!

Until now I have used the 16F84 and now I wanted to use the bigger flash ones 28-40pins. I have read that the 16F87X family have In circuit Debuging facilities, this seems to be really interesting,  and as far as i concern MPLAB supports this functionalities with teh MPLAB-ICD.   The problem is that I have not found any document talking about what to do.  What kind of hardware design should I use in order to debug my PIC, and exactly how is it gonna work ?  Do I need any extra MCU for controlling the debuging or the  only hardeard is a  RS-232 controller connected to RB6-7 and the MPLAB-ICD makes everything.  
Can you tell me what to do or refer me to any extra docu ????


thanks in advanced

david

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2000\12\07@125346 by jamesnewton

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See the FREE IDC documentation on the piclist.com site
www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/freeicd/
and also
http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/icd.htm

I think that will answer most of you questions.

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{Original Message removed}

2000\12\07@133717 by Olin Lathrop

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>>
I have read that the 16F87X family have In circuit Debuging facilities, this
seems to be really interesting,  and
as far as i concern MPLAB supports this functionalities with teh MPLAB-ICD.
The problem is that I have not found any
document talking about what to do.  What kind of hardware design should I
use in order to debug my PIC, and exactly how is it
gonna work ?  Do I need any extra MCU for controlling the debuging or the
only hardeard is a  RS-232 controller connected to RB6-7 and the MPLAB-ICD
makes
everything.
<<

See section 12.14, "In-Circuit Debugger", on page 135 of the 16F87x data
sheet.  I assume there is a manual specific to the ICD, but I have no
experience with the ICD.


*****************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Devens Massachusetts
(978) 772-3129, olinspamKILLspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2000\12\08@050914 by o-8859-1?Q?K=FCbek_Tony?=

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Hi,

David Gomez wrote:
<snip>
>as far as i concern MPLAB supports this functionalities with teh
MPLAB-ICD.   The
>problem is that I have not found any
>document talking about what to do.  What kind of hardware design should
I use in order
>to debug my PIC, and exactly how is it
>gonna work ?  Do I need any extra MCU for controlling the debuging or
the  only hardeard
>is a  RS-232 controller connected to RB6-7 and the MPLAB-ICD makes
>everything.  
>
>Can you tell me what to do or refer me to any extra docu ????

Well I must say that the ICD really is a wonderful thing, me to 'comming
from'
16F84 and moving upto the 16F87x series. It's worth the small cost many
times over.
Just starting to use an brand new ICE2000 and and still amazed how much
the ICD was
capable of compared to the ICE2000, yes the ICE2000 if much more
powerful, but still
the ICD only cost about an 10th of it.

But to get back to your questions,
Basically you need the ICD and thats it :), well almost,
myself I built an small board with , of a socket for an 16F874 ( the
only one i've used )
,test pins for each pic pin, an socket for an crystal( or oscillator) of
choice, an connector
for the ICD ( RJ45 ? ), some led's for power etc., this small board has
pins in parallel
going down to be inserted in test/dev/bread-borad of choice.
Apart from that you basically only need the icd, also which if i recall
correctly
the icd actually comes with an proto-board included with an 16F87x
processor.

So basically you dont need anything more than the icd package to get
started.


/Tony



Tony Kübek, Flintab AB            
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2000\12\08@060325 by David Gomez Otero

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thanks,

but, where can I take a look to this startup IDC package ?   and is it
possible that I build it myself. I mean, sometimes they include in
the boards some small pic controller so that the PC talks with it and the
firmware in the PIC is protected :(  thus,  you can not build it yourself.
i do think that
the ICD is only a serial MAX232 connected to the RB6-7   but I am not sure
if this is so simple ...

david

{Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@070917 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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Yes you can build your own.  The debugger does have a PIC, but Microchip
kindly (unintentionaly?) provided a way to program your own by supplying the
hex code with MPLAB.  If you read through the links James provided at

See the FREE IDC documentation on the piclist.com site
www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/freeicd/
and also
http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/icd.htm

then this explains pretty much all you need to know.  Unless you have all
the bits lying around and/or are very keen to build your own for the fun of
it, then buying the genuine article is a better bet.

Peter Anderson at http://www.phanderson.com/ is selling the ICD without the
Protoboard for a reduced price.

Regards

Mike
> {Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@072629 by David Gomez Otero

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Thanks for the information.

I have read all the docu that you all have told me, and i finally have one
more question :

I am building a startkit (for my personal usage) for the PIC  18pin ,  28
pin  and 40pin,  and I  there I include the programmer, and
some periphericals as LCD, leds,  a serial port ,....   and I also wanted to
add a debugger facilitie for the 28-40 16F87X family.

All the documentations talk about a special board that includes a 16F876
MCU, and can be connected into the socket of the board where there is the
PIC that I want to debug. So you connect the PC to a board that has a 16F876
with a firmware written and from this board you use a 6-pin-connection to a
header that can be connected into the socket where the PIC is, as a
simulator ...
but that implies that in my startkit I will have to add a part from the
sockets for the normal MCU to use, an other one for the 16F876 because the
ICD needs it????

i think I am a bit confused ??
is it possible to debug the 87x family directly connecting the 2 pins of the
87x MCU that i want to debug with the serial MAX232 to the PC without using
this extra 16F876?  .  The idea is that I will build all my programs in this
startkit board so I don't need the header to be connected to the target
board  .

thanks for the help

david

{Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@075326 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

There is no software that I know of that can use the enhanced PIC's
debugging facility directly via a parellel/com port.  The suspect the timing
requirements may rule this out.  Even if this was possible, it wouldn't
interface to MPLAB.  So, if you wish to build an ICD clone you need the
16F876 PIC.  Don't forget that the ICD can also be used as a progarmmer for
the 87x devices.  For the lower range parts you could use a standard cheap
parallel port programmer, of which there are countless designs on the 'net.

Regards

Mike

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2000\12\08@080950 by David Gomez Otero

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Ok.  it is clear now.

Anyway, I took a look to the mpl876.hex file and it uses 14Kb, it is too
long for the 8K of the 16F876,  isn't it ?

and, is it possible to use a 28pin 87X MCU  instead of the 40pin one ??  it
would be cheaper ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Rigby-Jones <KILLspammrjonesKILLspamspamNORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD


> > {Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@082412 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Gomez Otero [SMTP:spamBeGonedavid.gomezspamBeGonespamUPCNET.ES]
> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 1:04 PM
> To:   TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD
>
> Ok.  it is clear now.
>
> Anyway, I took a look to the mpl876.hex file and it uses 14Kb, it is too
> long for the 8K of the 16F876,  isn't it ?
>
> and, is it possible to use a 28pin 87X MCU  instead of the 40pin one ??
> it
> would be cheaper ...
>
>
The size of the hex file isn't the same as the final program size, it is
much larger because it is an ASCII representation of the code, using 4
characters to represent one word of memory.  Plus there is an overhead
ascociated with the addressing scheme and the checksums.

The 16F876 is a 28 pin part.

Regards

Mike

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2000\12\08@094310 by Bob Ammerman

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The ICD, as purchased from mChip contains the following:

- a cable to connect to your serial port

- software (MPLAB) on CD

- the ICD "module". This is a small board that contains a 28pin PIC
(16F87x?) that runs the ICD firmware.

- a six conductor RJ 'phone' type cable used to connect the module to:

- a "pod" containing a socketed PIC16LF877-04 (at least in the copy I have).
This pod can be plugged into your circuit in place of your CPU.

- a demo board into which you can plug the pod. This contains oscillator
circuitry, switches, LED's, a prototyping area, etc.

Notes:

1: the ICD module is powered from the application circuit or the demo board.

2: the ICD module can be connected directly to the demo board (or your
application circuit, if you include the right jack) via a 6 conductor phone
wire.

3: You _can_ build all this yourself. The plans are available, and the
firmware for the module is not protected.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\12\08@094734 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Rigby-Jones <RemoveMEmrjonesspamTakeThisOuTNORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD


> > {Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@122246 by Dan Larson

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I myself have taken a look at the information on the "Free ICD" page
and also the ICD schematic in the MChip ICD documentation.

I notice from some of the comments on the "Freer ICD" page that there
are some concerns with the VPP charge pump either causing too much
noise or problems encountered bypassing the VPP charge pump with
an external 13V supply.

Upon examining the schematic, it appears that it has been updated since
its release. The power supply for the so-called charge pump appears
to be a simple boost switcher followed by a 78L12.

If I build *exactly* from the published schematic in the current 51184d.pdf
will there be any concerns for me?

After successfully building the JTAG cable for the Xilinx parts, I'm all pumped
up to build my own ICD and dump my old home brew programmer.

TIA,

Dan

On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:07:48 -0000, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\12\08@123904 by Dr. Chris Kirtley

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Dear all,

Talking of hardware for the MPLAB, I wonder if there is such a thing as
a Visual Basic DLL so that we can write software which automatically
reprograms the PIC (rather than having to do this in the MPLAB
software)?

Chris
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2000\12\08@133411 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Chris Kirtley <RemoveMEkirtleyspam_OUTspamKILLspamCUA.EDU>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD


> Dear all,
>
> Talking of hardware for the MPLAB, I wonder if there is such a thing as
> a Visual Basic DLL so that we can write software which automatically
> reprograms the PIC (rather than having to do this in the MPLAB
> software)?

Not too likely given the current 16-bit version of MPLAB. But it sure would
be a neat thing to include in MPLAB-32 when and if we ever see it!

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\12\08@134700 by M. Adam Davis

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You can write software to program the PIC.  The problem is that many
programmers use a proprietary protocol for programming (all of microchip's
programmers for instance).

I seem to remember someone having C source code for a picstart + interface
to be used under Linux, which had most ,if not all, of the picstart's
commands.

Alternately you could build one of the many PIC programmers which have
open-source programming code.

And, of course, all programming information for each chip, and an example
programmer (IIRC) is available from microchip on their web site.

However, I've not seen a VB dll for accessing any of these programmers
yet.

-Adam

"Dr. Chris Kirtley" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\12\08@134712 by jamesnewton

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ICD
http://www.microchip.com/10/tools/picmicro/program/icsp/index.htm

Picstart+
http://www.cosmodog.com/pic/ picp - open source (free) command line
interface for the PICStart+ (read: It writes out the MPLAB commands to cause
the PICStart+ to work. Its Open Source. If you want to make a programmer
MPLAB compatable you would.... BING!)

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{Original Message removed}

2000\12\08@135037 by mike

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On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:20:00 -0000, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

..but you could use an 877 if that's what you had available.

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2000\12\08@191829 by David Gomez Otero

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hi,

I read your mail and just asked myself.  Can I make a programmer compatible
with mplab ??

The programmers i am using right now are some internet paralel port
programmers that use a special protocol for communicating with the board so
i must design a special hard and then use that soft.

It would be really great if I could make such a simple hardware that I could
use with the MPLAB so that I would only need one software program for
everything ...

do you know where could I find the schematics for a programmer that I could
use with the MPLAB default software ??

david

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From: James Newton <EraseMEjamesnewtonspamEraseMEPICLIST.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Hardware for using MPLAB-ICD


> ICD
> http://www.microchip.com/10/tools/picmicro/program/icsp/index.htm
>
> Picstart+
> http://www.cosmodog.com/pic/ picp - open source (free) command line
> interface for the PICStart+ (read: It writes out the MPLAB commands to
cause
> the PICStart+ to work. Its Open Source. If you want to make a programmer
> MPLAB compatable you would.... BING!)
>
> ---
> James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
> spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamKILLspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
> PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
>
> {Original Message removed}

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