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'[PIC]: Data transfer between a PIC and a PC (easys'
2008\08\22@125904 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

nowadays
> you
> > can't count on the user's PC having serial ports.  Pretty much no
recent
> > laptops have serial ports.
>
> My PC motherboard Asus P5Q (new P45 chipset) has one RS-232.
>

> "Pretty much (no recent) laptops have serial ports" is equivalent to
> "Pretty much old laptops have serial ports".

No it isn't.  The statement just happens to be broadly true in this
particular case, but if I said e.g. "Almost no cars with 3.0L or larger
engines will return 50mpg", would you consider "Almost all cars with
engines smaller than 3.0L will return 50mpg" is equivalent?  

> That's good news about
> old laptops. And why should that mean one can't count on the user's PC
> having serial ports.

Simply because serial ports are now considered legacy devices, and many
newer PC's (and especially laptops) don't have them.  Ergo you can't
guarantee that ownership of a modern PC means a serial port is available
for use.

Further, the USB/Serial adapters don't perfectly emulate a proper serial
port, so operation can not be guaranteed with these unless you have
explicitly tested various adpaters available.

Regards

Mike

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2008\08\22@131846 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> "Pretty much (no recent) laptops have serial ports" is equivalent to
> "Pretty much old laptops have serial ports".

Not really, although that may still be a roughly true statement.

> That's good news about old laptops. And why should that mean
> one can't count on the user's PC having serial ports.

That should be obvious.  Many users will have recent (last 2-3 years)
laptops.  Some will have been in Outer Mongolia stuck under a rock or in a
cave for the last decade, but a good many won't have.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\22@150426 by Funny NYPD

picon face
PICkit 2 does has a serial UART tool, but it is only TTL level, you cannot connect it to RS232 Level of signal directly.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com



{Original Message removed}

2008\08\22@151607 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> > > This used to be RS-232.  That is still easy to get working, but
> > > nowadays you can't count on the user's PC having serial ports.  
> > > Pretty much no recent laptops have serial ports.
> > If not RS-232 why not count on IRDA instead. From PC side
> IRDA looks
> > like the same COM port, I beleive. From PIC side simply add
> some MCHP
> > IRDA IC.
>
> I don't think that's a good idea. IRDA is now also being
> dropped from laptops. My MSI wind doesn't have an IRDA port.
> Most functionality that IRDA provided is now replaced my bluetooth.
>
> Nevermind the fact that VERY few desktop systems have an IRDA port.
>
> While not as dead as RS-232, IRDA isn't too far behind IMHO.
>
> TTYL


At least RS-2323 actually works.

Did anyone ever get IRDA to work?  That's assuming the PC had the IRDA TX/RX
bit (I don't think I've ever seen one 'in the flesh'), and something for it
to talk to, and there wasn't much of that either.

Let's resurrect the cassette port too.

Tony

2008\08\22@191348 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> No it isn't.  The statement just happens to be broadly true in this
> particular case, but if I said e.g. "Almost no cars with 3.0L or larger
> engines will return 50mpg", would you consider "Almost all cars with
> engines smaller than 3.0L will return 50mpg" is equivalent?

Exactly, thanks.


> Simply because serial ports are now considered legacy devices, and many
> newer PC's (and especially laptops) don't have them.  Ergo you can't
> guarantee that ownership of a modern PC means a serial port is available
> for use.

The OP did not talk about serial ports, he mentioned RS232 interface.
RS232 is pretty much alive (interesting, If I had used "almost" -
"RS232 is almost alive" as you did in your example - the meaning would
be somewhat different:-)

The OP did not say COM Port wouldn't be available, his main concern
was that it will be hard to program. And he asked about USB. Here came
The Guru telling - ditch RS232, USB is better because new notebooks
have no RS232.

Why the heck, the OP should be bothered about notebooks? His PC has
RS232 already, newest motherboards have RS232 as well, and if they had
not, he could easily buy RS232 PCI-x card rather cheaply.

What the OP should be really bothered about is that USB (PC) ground
can't be reliably extended more than sort of a couple of meters. He
did not say that his Man-Machine-Interaction system is as small as
some PIC programmer. USB drivers are not +-12v strong.

I think, The Guru in his efforts to promote his product just confused
the OP. The most relevant reply, as for me, was by Vitaliy:

> My advice to Tinu would be to use MS Visual Studio Express
> to write his application. You can still use C++, and they have
> a built-in COM port component.

I'd recommend C# (or VB.NET) instead and MS Visual Studio Team free 3
month trial, not Express.

"How to access serial ports by using Visual Basic 2005"
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/904795

Regards.


> Further, the USB/Serial adapters don't perfectly emulate a proper serial
> port, so operation can not be guaranteed with these unless you have
> explicitly tested various adpaters available.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike

2008\08\23@102652 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> The OP did not talk about serial ports, he mentioned RS232 interface.

And the RS-232 interface of a PC is commonly referred to as a "serial port"
or "COM port".  In fact, he used both terms and even clarified that they
meant the same thing:

 "of the serial interface (rs232)"

> RS232 is pretty much alive

Actually the point is that it's dying, and already dead for a large segment
of potential users.

> The OP did not say COM Port wouldn't be available, his main concern
> was that it will be hard to program. And he asked about USB. Here came
> The Guru telling - ditch RS232, USB is better because new notebooks
> have no RS232.

The OP was concerned about "future proofing" and specifically asked about
USB as a option:

 > I think to be a bit more future proof, using USB instead
 > of the serial interface (rs232) would be a good idea,
 > but as a fall-back-solution, the serial interface would
 > be possible too.
 >
 > how can i access these interfaces in a simple way with
 > today's technology?

So I pointed him to one way to access USB easily from a PIC.

> Why the heck, the OP should be bothered about notebooks?

Many PC users now have notebooks as their only PC.  If he wants to
distribute his gizmo to the general public, then whatever restrictions
notebooks have should be considered.  I don't remember him saying this was a
one-off hobby project for personal use with a well known system.

You need to get a life.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\23@124204 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Many PC users now have notebooks as their only PC.  If he wants to
> distribute his gizmo to the general public, then whatever restrictions
> notebooks have should be considered.  I don't remember him saying this was a
> one-off hobby project for personal use with a well known system.
>
> You need to get a life.

Where did you get "he wants to distribute his gizmo to the general
public". Read:

> Now, i'm using winXP and my old applications do not work
> anymore, as hardware access of winXP is completely different...
> so i have to do something new.

If he were targeted his gizmo to the general public he would address
Vista, not WinXP.


>> The OP did not talk about serial ports, he mentioned RS232 interface.
>
> And the RS-232 interface of a PC is commonly referred to as a "serial port"
> or "COM port".  In fact, he used both terms and even clarified that they
> meant the same thing:
>
>  "of the serial interface (rs232)"

No, re-read it once more, he did not talk about ports, he mentioned
only interfaces. So, we may conclude he was not bothered about the
physical presence of the COM port. He's got it already. His problem is
that he can't command it under "new" op system WinXP. That's why he
asked what would be easier under WinXP - to learn how to rewrite code
with existing and working rs232 or completely redevelop the project
with USB. The correct answer would be - once you have hardware working
with RS232 under Win98, just rewrite you code in Visual Studio, its
easy and could be done quickly. "How to access serial ports by using
Visual Basic 2005": http://support.microsoft.com/kb/904795


> The OP was concerned about "future proofing" and specifically
> asked about USB as a option:

When in the future Microsoft will not provide support for last
operating system that support last version of Visual Studio that does
not support COM Port - you may start thinking about being "future
proof, using USB instead of the serial interface (rs232)".

Regards.

2008\08\23@124930 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> >> If not RS-232 why not count on IRDA instead. From PC side
> IRDA looks
> >> like the same COM port, I beleive. From PIC side simply
> add some MCHP
> >> IRDA IC.
> >
> > I don't think that's a good idea. IRDA is now also being
> dropped from
> > laptops. My MSI wind doesn't have an IRDA port. Most functionality
> > that IRDA provided is now replaced my bluetooth.
> >
> > Nevermind the fact that VERY few desktop systems have an IRDA port.
> >
> > While not as dead as RS-232, IRDA isn't too far behind IMHO.
>
>
> IrDA is not dying.


IrDA had a year or two of hype a decade ago.  It didn't take people long to
realise it was a useless gimmick.

IrDA is dead.
Firewire is dead.
RS-232 is dead.
Parallel is dead.
Centronics is dead.
Cassette port is dead.
PS2 is dead.
IDE is dead.
Floppy is dead.
VGA is dead.
Joystick port is dead.
AT keyboard is dead.
Ethernet is dead.
SCSI is dead.
+ a few more.

Bluetooth only just made it.

USB, Sata, PCI (whatever its descendant is called these days), 3.5mm audio,
wireless, Cat5/RJ45 for networking and whatever that new video port is
called is about all that matters.  The rest is dust.

Sure, you can still buy devices to connect to these, there's always a niche.
You can still buy blank VHS tapes, probably Beta too.  Designing a major
product (or even minor) for them will cause people to question your
abilities.

There's always WiFI, we can use those $15 modules you have.  You can still
get them, can't you?

Tony

2008\08\23@130025 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I did once have a laptop with an IrDa port which would shut itself
down whenever I ran a low-power (a few milliwatts) pulsed microwave
transmitter near the IrDa port :) It was very annoying since I was
trying to use the laptop to debug the transmitter (which had a PIC in
it). That is the extent of my use of IrDa. I never found out for sure
but my suspicion was that there was some kind of command which you
could issue through the IrDa (like from a remote control) to power
down the computer and that RF was getting into the IrDa port. It might
also have just been affecting one of the laptop's supervisory micros
directly.

Sean


On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Herbert Graf <mailinglist4spamKILLspamfarcite.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 23:05 +1000, Tony Smith wrote:
>> > > Did anyone ever get IRDA to work?

2008\08\23@154627 by olin piclist

face picon face
Tony Smith wrote:
> Ethernet is dead.

Hardly.  100Mbit/second ethernet is replacing 10Mbit/second ethernet, but
I'd say ethernet is still the predominant LAN backbone.  By a huge margin.

If you don't think people are using ethernet, what exactly do you think is
being used for LAN backbones?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\24@005745 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> >> IrDA is not dying.
> >
> > That may be your opinion, but the fact that the newest
> NOTEBOOKS don't
> > have IRDA is pretty clear sign to me that IRDA is dying.
>
> A good nubmer of interfaces are not represented on newest NOTEBOOKS.
> Not all of them are considered dying.


So something that's obsolete (can't be purchased) is still considered
viable?

I might need to change my definition of dead.  I just sent a message saying
thick ethernet is dead, by your definition it's alive and well.

Tony

2008\08\26@075425 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Ethernet is dead.
...
> Cat5/RJ45 for networking ... is about all that matters.

Umm, hang on a minute, there is something rather contradictory in these
statements.

Your Ethernet is dead statement 'might' be correct if you stated that
Thicknet and Thinnet are dead, but RJ45 for Ethernet is very much alive -
you just don't call it Ethernet, even if it is.

2008\08\26@075829 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> What benefit does IRDA have over bluetooth from a consumer perspective?

A lower current draw?

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